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If an alchemist that have 2 claws can i chose Vestigial Arm 2 times and gain 2 more primary claw attacks from the mutagen?
or can i get the claws on my feat?
I'm fairly positive you can get two more claw attacks with the Vestigial Arms hack. You absolutely can't put claws on your feet, though.
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I'm fairly positive you can get two more claw attacks with the Vestigial Arms hack. You absolutely can't put claws on your feet, though.
Are you saying Feral Mutagen can grant two claws in addition to a pair of claws you may already have, because of the two extra hands granted by Vestigial Arms?
If so, then yes.
If you are saying Feral Mutagen itself can grant you four claws, because you have extra hands, then no.
Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).
Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.
This means that you can wield weapons, although you still suffer the -5 penalty per attack with them.
So, if you had Feral mutagen and Vestigial arms x 2, then you would receive claw, claw, bite, weapon -5 attack, weapon -5 attack (assuming you also take two-weapon fighting and use light weapons then it is only -2, -2).
Go Vivisectionist and receive sneak on each attack!
I'm fairly positive you can get two more claw attacks with the Vestigial Arms hack. You absolutely can't put claws on your feet, though.Are you saying Feral Mutagen can grant two claws in addition to a pair of claws you may already have, because of the two extra hands granted by Vestigial Arms?
If so, then yes.
Of course that's what I mean. The first line of the original post mentions already having claws.
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Of course that's what I mean. The first line of the original post mentions already having claws.I'm fairly positive you can get two more claw attacks with the Vestigial Arms hack. You absolutely can't put claws on your feet, though.Are you saying Feral Mutagen can grant two claws in addition to a pair of claws you may already have, because of the two extra hands granted by Vestigial Arms?
If so, then yes.
Sorry. I misunderstood the OP.
Bad grammar confounds me sometimes.
Also, calling it a "hack" is in poor taste, in my opinion.
Also, calling it a "hack" is in poor taste, in my opinion.
Huh, I didn't even notice I called it that. Of course, I don't know why it's inappropriate. It's obviously not intended, but it works anyway. What term would you prefer?
Are all the attacks primary.
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
This line seems to state that even with four arms you would only still get two attacks from these four arms.
So if you use two of them to make natural attacks you cant use the other two to make weapon attacks natural attacks or any other attack this Round.
However you could wield two Two-Handed Weapons and get 1.5 Str on all attacks while Two-Weapon Fighting since you would not be gaining extra attacks per Round.
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The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).
This line seems to state that even with four arms you would only still get two attacks from these four arms.
So if you use two of them to make natural attacks you cant use the other two to make weapon attacks natural attacks or any other attack this Round.
However you could wield two Two-Handed Weapons and get 1.5 Str on all attacks while Two-Weapon Fighting since you would not be gaining extra attacks per Round.
Wrong.
There is no difference in the amount of attacks between claw/claw/dagger/dagger, and claw/claw/unarmed strike/unarmed strike.
No extra attacks happening.
Extra, meaning more than usual.
So, four equals four.
As per the way its written it was made to give you options in combat, not to give you four arms that can all make separate attacks. You get just as many attacks as your normally would for what ever Race you are. The Vestigial Arms don't grant any more attacks that normal but you can use them in place of your original arms.
Human alchemist with 2 arms and 2 vestigial still only gets 1 main hand and 1 off hand per round, you could wield four different weapons but when you attack you can only pick 2 of the four arms.It doesn’t matter if the weapons be natural or manufactured, you don’t get extra attacks.
The way you are interpreting this my monk/alchemist should get at least 13 attacks. 4 hands/4 elbows/2 feet/2 knees/1 head
Just cause you CAN make an attack with something doesn’t mean you get all the attacks every time you full attack, Vestigial Arm is for options when attacking.
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As per the way its written it was made to give you options in combat, not to give you four arms that can all make separate attacks. You get just as many attacks as your normally would for what ever Race you are. The Vestigial Arms don't grant any more attacks that normal but you can use them in place of your original arms.
Human alchemist with 2 arms and 2 vestigial still only gets 1 main hand and 1 off hand per round, you could wield four different weapons but when you attack you can only pick 2 of the four arms.It doesn’t matter if the weapons be natural or manufactured, you don’t get extra attacks.The way you are interpreting this my monk/alchemist should get at least 13 attacks. 4 hands/4 elbows/2 feet/2 knees/1 head
Just cause you CAN make an attack with something doesn’t mean you get all the attacks every time you full attack, Vestigial Arm is for options when attacking.
You don't know how natural attacks work, do you?
My question is, do you?
"Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
Since Vestigial Arm already states you DON'T gain extra attacks cause of the extra arms, so if you use one of the arms to make an attack with a natural or manufactured weapon you only have one other arm available for making an attack, regardless of it being natural or manufactured weapons.
So even if you did have 2 normal arms and 2 vestigial arms where two were natural attacks and two were weapons, because of the line from Vestigial Arm you still only get to pick two of the four arms. The other two arms are now considered unavailable
This has come up several times basically bbt argument is that he extra attacks come from whatever gives claws. He is correct in this. The catch 22 being for this trick to wirk it needs the vestigial arms. Ergo the arms are granting extra attacks.
The other thing is there is no rule in the game saying you get to decide which limb your claws go on.
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This has come up several times basically bbt argument is that he extra attacks come from whatever gives claws. He is correct in this. The catch 22 being for this trick to wirk it needs the vestigial arms. Ergo the arms are granting extra attacks.
The other thing is there is no rule in the game saying you get to decide which limb your claws go on.
No, the claws are granting the attacks. What limbs they are on is irrelevant.
There is also no limit on how many arms can be used, only that no extra attacks are gained.
So, no four dagger attacks, but two daggers/two claws is legit.
Basically, the line is preventing one from attacking like a Marilith, and getting a manufactured weapon attack with a weapon held in each hand.
It says no attacks may be gained, it doesn’t say only no attacks with manufactured weapons it says NO ATTACKS
You many never, ever get extra attacks with a vestigial arm. Ever. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round…
I've always read it as you should not be taking more attacks with the vestigial arms then you would be taking without the vestigial arms.
However, BBT is technically correct by RAW that you can cheese several natural attacks (biased language intended) to have extra attacks without breaking the limit of iterative attacks + natural attack limit.
However, based on what I've seen the devs say in the past (and I've not been here as long as some others), I do not believe the intent is for vestigial arms to grant more (or extra) attacks then you would have without them.
This does not mean I think the intent is for you to use your extra arms to punch yourself in the face! Only someone whose sole focus is combat, combat, combat would think that.
You many never, ever get extra attacks with a vestigial arm. Ever. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round…
Right, but the arms don't give you extra attacks. The claws give you extra attacks. The vestigial arms simply give you a place to put the claws that would otherwise have nowhere to go. This definitely works. It's not the way the writers wanted it to work, but it definitely works.
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Look, a player with Vestigial Arms can hold a shield, and attack with a greatsword.
That's one attack.
Now, with this made up restriction, that one attack is considered "extra" by your current qualifiers of "extra", as normally, holding a shield makes it impossible to attack with a greatsword.
So, by this restriction, unsupported by RAW, the player can literally do nothing with the arms, whilst attacking with any of them.
This is not so.
Now, natural attacks:
Natural attacks have no limiter, and all that is required, is an available limb.
So, whilst a PC can only gain one extra attack by two weapon fighting, all natural attacks can be made in addition to any full attack.
So, an ability that grants a bite, does so by the ability. Having a head doesn't grant you an extra attack, the ability does.
This is the same with the arms.
Look, a player with Vestigial Arms can hold a shield, and attack with a greatsword.
That's one attack.
Now, with this made up restriction, that one attack is considered "extra" by your current qualifiers of "extra", as normally, holding a shield makes it impossible to attack with a greatsword.
No, I consider holding the shield extra.
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Ok, let me put it another way. You get the same number of attacks in any given build with or WITHOUT vestigial arms.
So, a guy with TWF who gets one main and one offhand attacks for two attacks total= what does he get with adding two vestigial arms? Two attacks total, still.
A guy who gets two claw attacks, adds vestigial arms/? Still two attacks, but now he could hold weapons in the arms and switch off weapon type vs DR, etc.
A monk with a flurry that give him 5 attacks? Adding two vestigial arms= the same five attacks.
All the arms do is give options. Not extra attacks. Those options can allow you to use a shield in one arm and weapons in two arms, which give you the same number of attacks are a guy with TWF, except there’s also a shield bonus at the same time. Or he could use that shield for a bash- but that would still be one of his two attacks.
Now they can be “handy” like you could have a potion ready to swig. Or you could have a heavy shield, a weapon and still have a hand ‘free’ for somatic . But if your PC with weapon and shield would get one attack, then adding even a dozen vestigial arms gets you no more attacks.