Hi Guys,
I am currently playing a Kensai Magus and with current gear, class/racial feature and wand of shield i usually run around with 31 ac at level 7.
Because of this and my overall build with spells like mirror image and a few others, I have been believing I can hold the tank role for our group. However my dm has eluded to me that my ac doesn't mean much in pathfinder. We also have a dwarf barbarian running almost 2x my hp. Because of the fact he is slow and hardly is ever focused by the DM he believes he holds the tank roll and basically because of this thinks he is indestructible.
Can anyone clarify for me what i should try to work on if I am planning on holding this role? I am highly confused because my ac is nearly twice the dwarfs and other than his hp is 2ndary stats arent any better than mine save maybe fort.
Please any advice on this would be appreciated.
Thanks.
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Find monster. Seduce its mate. Not it focus all attacks on you.
Basically, the usual problem with stacking AC is that, unless you're going specifically for it, attack bonuses will tend to outscale it in the late game, and it doesn't do anything against spells (though you getting both your Dex and Int to your touch AC certainly helps against touch spells). That said, the spells you mentioned, mirror image and such, and having good saves makes up for what AC lacks.
Also, having a high health pool can be an effective way to survive, especially given that he has damage reduction as well (up to half his level, depending on if he took the invulnerable rager archetype). And, again depending on what he chose, he can get rather high saves while raging due to Rage Powers like Superstition.
So yes, your AC isn't going to be the only way to stay alive later. However, a 31 AC at level 7 is going to keep most things from being able to hit you with a physical attack, and if you manage to keep your saves up you'll be good there, too.
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To be a tank you need to be able to do 2 things:
1- Survive all that is thrown at you. Not only physical attacks, but also spells. IMHO, you're not a good tank if your saves suck. If all the enemy needs to take you out of the fight is target your Will save, then you're not a reliable defense to the party.
2- Attract enemy fire. It doesn't matter how high is your AC or how many hit points you have if you don't give your enemies a reason to target you. You need to convince your opponents that targeting you instead of running around and going for the squishy casters is a good idea. Having an amazing DPR is a good way to show your enemies that they should target you if they want to stay alive. But there are other ways to sell yourself as a valuable target.
A good rule is if the monsters can hit you 5% of the time and your allies 95% of the time your ac is too high. This is because its hard to compell opponents actions and they will shift to kill your allies. You need a way to make them want to kill ypu despite an inability to hit.
Well, I know of two builds which tend to work well enough in controlling the battlefield that you could call them tanks from the pespective of Tarkxt's and Lemmy's comments: reach builds and the brawler archetype for fighter.
Reach works well since it turns you into a circle of pain for anything that tries to get past you. And going around you means that the target cannot charge (or worse, pounce) and it might not have enough move to actually catch up to the casters before they start running around the same circle. This might seem silly, but it helps keep damage off of the casters. Adding in something like trip further helps the effectiveness since it further wastes enemy turns. A bit hard overall for a magus, due to the focus on one handed weapons. Possibly with whips, although that takes quite a few feats to do really effectively.
From my understanding though, the brawler seems even more effective as a tank, since it can actually prevent opponents from getting out of its reach. Combining the Stand Still feat (CMB check to stop movement if it causes an AoO) and No Escape ability (draws an AoO for almost any movement away from the brawler) makes this possible. So by charging in, you make it so that an enemy has to take you out before it can move onto the squishies. The fact that you debuff any enemies next to you (up to -4 to attack, -7 to concentration) further helps make it hard for your trapped targets to get attacks or spells off. Sadly, this option is pretty much for a pure martial character since it needs 9 levels of a fighter archetype.
So overall, not much I can tell you, since I have little experience with magus and even less theorycrafting experience with putting them in this role.
As a kensai at lvl 7 i get high ac from Intelligence and Dex, I also get high initiative stacking these modifiers together for both. Usually enabling me to always go first, even acting while flat footed with attacks of opportunity.
For Mobility/Utility in offense and defense I have fly, Bladed dash, Mirror image spells and many more. These spells allow me to get the greatest opportunity for positioning, and full round attacks, or survivability.
For Defense, I run wands like shield, vampiric touch, vanish and items like Jingasa, and Aegis of Recovery. I still have much more i can get though.
For offense, I focus on Intensified Shocking Grasps, Frigid Touch and a few others but this is mainly combined with Arcane Pool to add Keen to my Agile +1 Wakazashi which puts my crit range at 15 to 20.
As i grow my all my character strengths only grow, and our DM uses the % crit table out comes, so i have one shotted a mini boss, and a couple other creatures.
The problem I am trying to solve is should I push energy into my hp at the loss of gold for retrains vs other offensive/defensive/utility items?
AND if i did that, does stacking up another hit worth of HP going to make as much difference as another piece of offensive/defensive/utility magic item?
But finally is my thought process wrong, my goal eventually will be charging into a fight on surprise rounds using sandals of quick reaction, superior reflexes to use swift action to do whatever is needed, and then standard for spell strike. Now 1st round in position again because of initiative full round attack with 15 to 20 crit range, and at lvl 9 i will be running a plus 10 on confirming criticals. Shortly after that I reach prerequisite for maximize spell strike feat. Essentially allowing me to expend resources when I know they will have the greatest effect.
Sorry for the loads of detail, but looking for good advice from experienced players as this is only my first pathfinder character.
But finally is my thought process wrong, my goal eventually will be charging into a fight on surprise rounds using sandals of quick reaction, superior reflexes to use swift action to do whatever is needed, and then standard for spell strike. Now 1st round in position again because of initiative full round attack with 15 to 20 crit range, and at lvl 9 i will be running a plus 10 on confirming criticals. Shortly after that I reach prerequisite for maximize spell...
I think before you answer any of those you need to figure out what is it that you want to do.
Not "tank".
Tank is a bad word. I've all but expunged it from my vocabulary where pathfinder is concerned.
Think of what you want to do as an actual verb.
Do you want to control the fight? Or do you want to end it?
If you want to end it then you're on the right track. You have the defenses to weather the backlash from your first couple of rounds and the potential damage to drop opponents left and right. Endurance may be an issue but your goal means the rest of the group blows fewer resources anyway so it all evens out. You may want to actually wait until after buffers and full casters have gone before you rush in and destroy but that is at your discretion.
If you want to control it you may want to rethink how you work. Damage prevention to your group (what most people consider the traditional tanking role) can be accomplished by your class without having to enter melee at all. With spells like Glitterdust and Major Image on your list control is very much a thing that you can do. While feasible reach weapons aren't in your repertoire you do ahve access to enlarge person which lets you increase your reach reasonably well enough to increase personal control of territory. With added mobility and a very high initiative modifier being able to control the pace of the fight so your dwarven barbarian friend does the majority of the getting hit part makes you very much a kind of tank if that's what you prefer to use.
But finally is my thought process wrong, my goal eventually will be charging into a fight on surprise rounds using sandals of quick reaction, superior reflexes to use swift action to do whatever is needed, and then standard for spell strike. Now 1st round in position again because of initiative full round attack with 15 to 20 crit range, and at lvl 9 i will be running a plus 10 on confirming criticals. Shortly after that I reach prerequisite for maximize spell...I think before you answer any of those you need to figure out what is it that you want to do.
Not "tank".
Tank is a bad word. I've all but expunged it from my vocabulary where pathfinder is concerned.
Think of what you want to do as an actual verb.
Do you want to control the fight? Or do you want to end it?
If you want to end it then you're on the right track. You have the defenses to weather the backlash from your first couple of rounds and the potential damage to drop opponents left and right. Endurance may be an issue but your goal means the rest of the group blows fewer resources anyway so it all evens out. You may want to actually wait until after buffers and full casters have gone before you rush in and destroy but that is at your discretion.
If you want to control it you may want to rethink how you work. Damage prevention to your group (what most people consider the traditional tanking role) can be accomplished by your class without having to enter melee at all. With spells like Glitterdust and Major Image on your list control is very much a thing that you can do. While feasible reach weapons aren't in your repertoire you do ahve access to enlarge person which lets you increase your reach reasonably well enough to increase personal control of territory. With added mobility and a very high initiative modifier being able to control the pace of the fight so your dwarven barbarian friend does the majority of the getting hit part makes you very much a kind of tank if that's what you prefer...
I realized early on that Pathfinder doesn't use a clear rule system to define the roles. This is fine, because my character in truth doesn't really fit one. If anything he is closer to a Hybrid of all roles. I have wand of cure light wounds like most, but because of Spell combat I have had situations where i played a healer and still swung.
I am not the best at any one thing, and my build only gets stronger in 1st few rounds of combat down the road, but the thing I am not quite understanding. If I have so much defense what am i doing wrong? Even the DM doesnt think im a tank.
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I realized early on that Pathfinder doesn't use a clear rule system to define the roles.
The rule system should not define the roles. The players/characters should define the roles. This means that you partially define your own role, but your role is also defined by your teammates. There's no reason for the rule system to constrain you to one of a number of pre-defined party roles.
-Skeld
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If I have so much defense what am i doing wrong? Even the DM doesnt think im a tank.
This is why i hate that word. You both have entirely different definitions for it.
So again I syay forget that word and what your gm thinks.
Instead focus on what it means to you and how to accomplish it.
For single target fights you could try Lock Gaze