I am playing a summoner in a casual game set in RotRL AP.
I am planning ahead as to what options are available to overcome DR with the Eidolon's natural attacks, as DR is often the bane of multiple attacks, in particular natural attacks.
So far i've identified 4 sources for practical solution. But DR adamantine is still elusive.
1) Magic attack (Su)- evolution. counts as magic for DR. at level 10 counts as alignment DR bypass. Great.
2) Versatile Weapon - spell. This one is not on the summoner spell-list but is relatively low level and as such could be bought as a wand and UMDed. Bypass any 1 type of DR, material based (except adamantine), or dmg type. Only works on 1 attack.
3) Eldritch Claws - feat. All natural attacks count as magic and silver for DR. Great with Magic attack for passive "always on" "all attacks".
4) Amulet of mighty fists - item. Even with the price reduced, this gets quite expensive to make +3, to bypass cold iron. to make +4, to bypass Adamantine, means to forgo good options for added effects since amulet is capped at +5.
Any other options i overlooked? DR Adamantine is really the hardest to bypass for Natural attacks, as AoMF @ +4 seems to be the only option.
AoMF is expensive because it can potentially be the same as 3-6+ +whatever weapons. The basic Claw/Claw equalizes the cost
AoMF 100,000 gp (+5), 2 Magic Weapons 2x50,000 (+5).
If you want to be a beast just go for AoMF +5, and just evolve Limbs (arms) and claws up to your maximum number of attacks. At 14th you'll have a max of 6 attacks, so . . .
6d6+str+5
OR
6d6(B and S)+str+6d6(fire)+6d6(cold)+6d6(electricity)+6d6(acid)
Your major options are just to do lots of other types of damage. For instance you could have +4d6 on each attack from all of the elemental damage enchants. I am unsure if the FAQs say they do not stack, but since they are magic and const a considerable amount of money to stack it works.
The Energy Attacks evolution for your Eidolon also works, so you could also technically have . . .
6d6(B and S)+str+6d6(fire)+6d6(cold)+6d6(electricity)+6d6(acid)+6d6(fire/cold/electri city/acid)
for a grand total of at least 36+str (all 1s) up to 216+str (all 6s).
DR is great, but can be useless. I want to continue this idea: you can always just crush through DR with elemental damage if you have a lot of attacks.
I appreciate the tip. Although i ask for the key to the locked door and you pass me the bazooka ;)
Also, please don't spoiler monsters from that particular AP. But I am not really familiar with monsters' resistances overall, what kind of CR usually come with DR adamantine ? Is it worth even considering for an AP that (i think) goes up to level 14-15 ?
Otherwise, AoMF +3 + Versatile weapon + magic attacks might do just fine.
I think all of the APs go up to 15, but this is an assumption from Second Darkness.
Basically the only feat that you could possibly use to get through DR is Penetrating Strike and Greater Penetrating Strike, but you have to be a fighter to gain access to those, and therefore your eidolon cannot use it. The only way to break through DR is either by bypassing it with elemental attacks, overcoming it with sheet damage output, or by out enchanting it.
I have not read any of RotRL, so I can't spoil anything beyond: GASP! Runelords?! XD
If you are going summoner then your Eidolon is pretty much a sub-par DPR character. The numbers above look like a "Bazooka" because that is if all of them hit, unlikely, and all roll 6s, also unlikely, but that is more or less a hard cap. Plus it is melee.
Many enemies with DR also have resistances to elements, so lets assume you fight a Demon at some point, most demons have DR10/good, acid 10, fire 10, and cold 10, Immunity to electricity.
Therefore your Eidolon per hit would do, from dice rolls alone,
1d6 physical VS DR10
1d6 acid VS acid 10
1d6 fire VS fire 10
1d6 cold VS cold 10
1d6 electricity VS immune
1d6 acid/fire/cold/electricity VS resist 10 or immune
On a max roll on all of these your eidolon would do
2 Acid or 2 Fire or 2 Cold or no damage a hit, and that is assuming the evolution stacks with the elemental enchant.
If you went AoMF +5 you'd do all of your physical damage, but without any of the enchants.
Remember that your Eidolon, as a summoner, is the main source of the Summoner's power while it is out. You are essentially the Magican from Everquest 1, but you at least have the option to summon monster. Build your Eidolon to massacre things, because if it dies then whatever killed it is probably going to have a much easier time killing you, A MUCH MUCH MUCH EASIER TIME. My experience has been that the summon monster SLA is far more powerful than the Eidolon, however.
I recommend you also put Spell Storing on the AoMF so you can at least cast a spell into the melee attack, or have the uber kill everything with spells character cast a kill everything spell into the amulet.
Remember, if the party is blowing through everything then that is fine. If the party dies the game is over. If the Eidolon starts to feel too powerful then have him hang back to protect the casters. Once the melees and people who are complaining have had their fill of having a harder time of defeating the enemy they will be more than happy that your Eidolon comes back into the fray.
Also, I recommend the Damage reduction as well as the Regeneration evolutions if you can take them. Remember that the Eidolon has 3/4 your HD progression, if the DM has the enemies focus it then it will die very fast. After that your usefulness for the day will sharply decline, and pretty much become a really crappy magus after your summon monster SLA is all used.
The summoner in my SD campaign learned this the hard way.
Also, just a note, your eidolon can full attack even if it is grappled.
You might get to level 17-18 in RotRL, we did. You can run into adamantine DR as low as CR 7 I believe.
I am slightly confused. You described in good details what you thought would be optimal choice for the AoMF enchants in your first post. Essentially, energy resistance notwithstanding, you argued that for DR, you are better off just stacking 5x elemental dmg enchants. That's what i labelled the bazooka approach instead of trying to overcome the DR.
In your second post, you go the other way, you show exactly why 5x elemental enchants ain't very good since many high level critters have moderate energy resists across the board, nullifying each source of elemental damage.
Re-reading your posts, you do not seem to factor in material based DR, only DR/-. I am looking for ways to overcome the former not the latter.
A +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists will get through pretty much everything but a rare few types like actual damage type, slashing bludgeoning etc.
The cool thing Jelly is that your raw damage from STR will more than make up for DR and some creatures will still take some of that bazooka damage from your energy damage. Summoners have no lack of options. If you really want to grind people, just amp your eidolon's strength as high as you can and it has a bit of utility in grapples and other places.
The really cool thing about Summoners is that they get to have their cake and eat it too. The Eidolon is only one portion of their considerable power. You still get bong diggity awesome summon spells and buffs.
[ . . . ]you are better off just stacking 5x elemental dmg enchants. That's what i labelled the bazooka approach instead of trying to overcome the DR.
In your second post[ . . . ]you show exactly why 5x elemental enchants [are not] very good since[ . . . ]
In essence the point is that you can be a beast and annihilate many enemies with all the enchant builds, but at the same time you are not super effective against all enemies, and against some you are useless.
If you are VS an enemy that does not have energy resist then he is not going to be a match for you, if you instead go against an enemy that has DR and is resistant to the elemental enchant you use then you lose the ability to really hurt it.
You have to choose how you feel will be the most optimal way for you to overcome DR. Do you use elements to overcome DR or do you use +4 or +5 enchant bonus to overcome all DR.
The point is that one can be countered to nothing but has a higher damage cap, while the other is harder to counter but has a much lower damage cap.
It is the difference between
+4 to hit, +4 to damage
VS
+0 to hit, +(5 - 30, Ave 17.5) to damage from elements.
Anyways, if you DO run into a demon that is what you have your summon monster SLA for, and also that is what you have allies for.
I was thinking about aiming for AoMF +3, with the +2 left under the cap for either 2x elemental enchants or something like holy.
Use magic attack evolution to pass through magic DR at low level, and past lev 10 to bypass DR/good, until AoMF get holy, or if I go for 2x elementals.
Use Versatile weapon as a wand to overcome DR/silver and cold iron as needed before AoMF gets big enough.
And simply carry a big stick made of adamantine for backup. Might even enchant it moderately at lev 9+ to include it into the attack routine with Multiattack.
That's a game plan. And since i am not even sure we will be able to craft in the AP, it might be out the window quite fast. Unless someone else gets good advice, that seems like a good overall approach to minimize DR problems.
Until you can afford the Amulet of Mighty Fists, you might want to consider another item for your neckslot: The Frozen Fist Amulet
This item turns the user's hands into frozen slabs of iron using a swift action. Unarmed Strikes and Claw attacks count as cold iron and gain the frost property (1d6, or 3.5 average damage when not resisted). The only real draw back is that the hands...are slabs of metal. So they are literally described as being as articulate as a club.
This item is priced at 10,000, compared to a +3 AoMF at 36,000. Unfortunately, these only work on the hands....but with eidolons, you can have a dozen hands, and I have heard claws are the most cost efficient primary attacks to add once it comes to the need for extra limbs/heads/etc. So there is no real problem there except for how it constrains your concepts. It can make a decent stop gap measure at least.
With the earlier discussion of boosting damage enough to blast through DR, might I also mention the fact that eidolons can qualify for arcane strike? This is because a FAQ about Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisitesstated that Spell like abilities can qualify as casting for prerequisites, and you can get the basic magic evolution for 1 evo point. So for a swift action each round, you can get 1-4 extra damage for each attack. Small, but useful, particularly with the tendency towards many attacks with eidolons. It also counts for DR/magic, so the magic attack evolution can be put off until it counts for alignment.
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The most common DR/Adamantine you will find at lower levels are golems, and if you are really worried you might consider investing in a cheap Golembane Scarab, which allows the user to detect constructs within 60 feet and also allows all unarmed, natural and weapon attacks by the wearer to ignore the construct's DR. Only costs 2500 gold as well.
Yes, your Eidolon should take a level in Two-handed fighter, then he can just be like, "SOOPAH EIDOLON SMASHU~~~~~~~~~!" and then miss because of 3/4 bab.
One thing I recommend if you go for breaking through DR with physical damage is power attack, size increase (extra STR), the ability score increase (STR every time), and possibly Reach for an attack. For maximum badassery you and choose to have only one attack that is super damaging, while focusing the rest of your evolutions on defense, protection, utility, or health. If you are small you can technically ride your eidolon if it is medium or larger.
Also, keep in mind that you do not have to hang back. You could be your Eidolon's Flanking buddy.
Go STR>Con>Cha>Dex>Wis>Int, carry a big 2-handed sword, and then just massacre everything with your eidolon flanking with you.
At level 1 with 20str and power attack you hit for 10+weapon damage, and to my knowledge VERY few DRs go above 10. If you go this route then ensure you and your eidolon take teamwork feats, since you then get free synergy.
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With the exceptions out there Fey/Golems. Amulet of Might Fist +2 with the holy effect on it will by pass most DR. As it makes there attacks good aligned. At the end have it be total of +5 as +3 Holy by passes every thing other then adamantine. I use holy enchantment a lot as it is the best way to by pass DR why increasing your damage. As most of the time you don't need a increased hit chances as much as you need to do higher damage.
Thanks for the Golembane Scarab and Frozen Fist Amulet tips, greatly appreciated.
For RP reasons, the summoner is a whimp. Literally. I built him with rolled stats that amount to a 11 pts buy ... So yeah, physical scores are pretty bad, and I am not going to melee as a flank buddy. Totally wasting the fact that it's a 3/4 bab class, but meh, only so much you can do with 11 pts equivalent stats !
Tis why I always use actual point buy, you either end up with NPC stats (3-15 points) or god stats (30+ points).
But, alas, that is a tale for another time!
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You could try a Furyborn AoMF. This property increases the bonus of the amulet by +1 up to +5 everytime you damage an opponent, until you strike another target. This way you just have to do enough to damage the target and, especially with several natural attacks, you can reach the full +5 and penetrate cold iron, silver, adamantine and alignment based DR.
That furyborn enchant is really interesting, but alas I am not sure it works on natural attacks. It only states melee weapons :
"Furyborn"
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A furyborn weapon draws power from the anger and frustration the wielder feels when battling foes that refuse to die. Each time the wielder damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by +1 when making attacks against that opponent (to a maximum total enhancement bonus of +5). This extra enhancement bonus goes away if the opponent dies, the wielder uses the weapon to attack a different creature, or 1 hour passes.
Furthermore, even if it is allowed on natural weapons via an AoMF, can it increase in bonus throughout a single round full attack ?
That seems a little strange. You roll for 4 natural attacks, wearing the amulet of Furyborn, and the last attack could already be at +3 ?
Maybe it's balanced for iteratives with a single weapon, but it seems a little strong on 5+ natural attacks builds if allowed to be put on AoMF.
Then one could argue that it will only increase in bonus for a single attack in the natural attacks routine, making it a rather poor +2 enchant. I see no middle ground if allowed on AoMF, weak or strong.
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Keep in mind that the Amulet is the "weapon" of interest not the individual weapons since the only thing with bonuses is the amulet. Checked this out with Paizo CS.
The thing to remember is that
1. you have to damage them with the attack
2. The initial attack has no bonus thus won't hit incorporeal targets or penetrate magic DR
3. you lose the bonus if you hit any other target
This came up in PFS play where I couldn't take Attacks of Opportunity because I would lose the bonus on the primary target I was attacking.
The issue is that wording for ALL weapon enchants assumes a weapon, the amulet and Bodywraps of Striking are weapon enchants on non-weapons that apply to unarmed strike/natural attacks. So you can't have a +3 claw or a +1 bite, you have an Amulet +1 or whichever.
Yes it works well but it has