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Whether it's overpowered depends on what you mean by overpowered.
More powerful than the most powerful core classes? No
More powerful than the weakest core classes? Yes
So...wizard players have nothing to fear from them, but rogues are probably still going to feel a little invalidated if the psion picks powers that can replace their typical niche.
Having played in a couple of games with psionic characters recently (dreamscarred press version), I definitely agree with this. Wizards and Clerics remain at the top with Sorcerers / Oracles / Psions in the the next tier.
There is only one thing so far I would do to change what DSP has done: I would nerf Ego Whip to Will Negates. It's a really nice power for it's level.
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Dreamscarred has done a really nice job with psionics. Nova factor is something a DM has to navigate around a little but the same applies to regular spellcasters. If you don't let the players indulge in the 5 minute work day mentality it isn't a problem.
The New Book that Dreamscarred is releasing comes with a lot of good DMing advice for including Psionics as well. They also cover changing the Theme of Psioncs so that the system can be used to cover Different forms of magic instead of the "Powers of the Mind" default.
DSC has put together some really interesting classes too, 6 new ones bove and beyond the original 4 as well as psionic archtypes for the regular classes letting you have things like a Psionic Wizard who inscribes "Psionic Spells" into his spellbook or a psychic Rogue who tinkers with your brain when he shivs you in the back.
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I actually have more issues with players going nova with casters (arcane/divine). They tend to mean a lot more when they go nova. If a psion decides to blow their roll in an encounter it usually just means they're fighting for survival. When an arcane caster / divine caster decides to blow their roll, it's because they're angry.
The free scaling has a major influence on that. Also on average the potency of spells vs powers favors spells on a level by level basis, with powers generally being more versatile later on through augmentation (but then they cost effectively the same as higher level powers, often for a low-level effect).
When we get into the superior strength of metamagic for casters, higher save DCs and SR penetration (thanks to Spell Focus and Spell Penetration feats), and the access to metamagic rods (there is no metapsionic equivalent of metamagic rods) the core casters soar high over the psionicists in nova potential.
That's before you get into awesome splat material like special spellbooks (book of harms allows you to auto-maximize 1 spell/day, so that little 3rd level lightning bolt just became 30-60 damage), spell perfection, and lots of other goodies. Dreamscarred Press from what I've seen has been very soft on power creep, adding new options and widening potential concepts rather than adding more raw power to existing ones.
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Bering Strait? Strait of Gibralter? or just the Long Island Sound?I can say they're not OP with a very strait face.
Obviously the Strait of Juan de Fuca.
Without Overchannel Psionics aren't overpowered. With Overchannel it can get ridiculous.
Also, characters taking 1 level of Psychic Warrior and then Psion thereafter basically get free casting in heavy armor which is a fairly abusive use of the way the classes are written (like if you took one level of Paladin you could cast arcane spells with no spell failure).
Also, the fact that all manifesting levels stack to determine your manifester level can occasionally be overpowered with multi-classes builds (its like if having two levels of Bard added to your Wizard caster level).
Psionics characters can manifest in armor anyway. Psychic Warrior just gives them proficiency.
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Also, the fact that all manifesting levels stack to determine your manifester level can occasionally be overpowered with multi-classes builds (its like if having two levels of Bard added to your Wizard caster level).
that's not how it works.
Without Overchannel Psionics aren't overpowered. With Overchannel it can get ridiculous.
Also, characters taking 1 level of Psychic Warrior and then Psion thereafter basically get free casting in heavy armor which is a fairly abusive use of the way the classes are written (like if you took one level of Paladin you could cast arcane spells with no spell failure).
Also, the fact that all manifesting levels stack to determine your manifester level can occasionally be overpowered with multi-classes builds (its like if having two levels of Bard added to your Wizard caster level).
a psion with 1 level of Psychic Warrior has fewer power points than a straight psion, but they can manifest in heavy armor
but i have no issues with arcane casters or monks wearing armor either
i'd personally rather, that they bother with armor, than waste an insignifficant first level spell on an otherwise free AC bonus
so my own houserule is
if you are proficient with the armor, you can wear it without losing armor restricted class features
meaning a multiclass monk/fighter in my games, can be a full on monk in heavy armor
i also allows monks to use their class features with any weapon they are proficient with, it's just weapons with the monk property instead mean, a monk has automatic proficiency with them.
as an upside in my games, Wizards can wear Armor just fine, they just typically don't because it detracts from their focus on mastering magic, either by lost wizard levels or by lost feats
for magi, i allow them to use spellstrike and spell combat with any weapon they choose, including twin weapons, or 2handed weapons, bows, or weapon and shield
i also allow bladebound magi to choose any weapon they please as a black blade, or a pair of light weapons, or all natural weapons and unarmed strikes they possess (including future natural weapons), counting the latter two as one weapon.
i also allow challenge and smite style effects to work with ranged weapons
sneak attack on any spell with a damage roll that meets the conditions
and sneak attack on every ray or missile of a ranged spell that deals hit point damage, meaning magic missiles from an arcane trickster, or rogue/caster, get sneak attack on each missile, 1-5 sneak attacka depending on caster level
i also tweak and clone prestige classes for other casting archetypes
like allowing divine casters or manifesters their own arcane trickster clone with slightly different requirements, or allowing divine flavored dragon disciples of alternate bloodlines, such as an oracle into an angelic apsirant whom instead of gaining form of the dragon and dragon powers, gains half-celestial template and oracle mystery/revelation progression
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For what it's worth: More than 10 years experience with psionics: 2nd edition and 3.0 - not so cool.
Then, BAM: 3.5. More than 4 years practical experience, not overpowered at all.
Second BAM: DSP's PFRPG-psionics. Been using it since day 1 of its release - it rocks and is glorious and well-balanced - I use a LOT of psionic material in my game and never had issues and I'm VERY picky about balance.
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Have had several psionicists in my games, of varying stripes. Never had problems with any that I wouldn't also have with a well-played full arcane caster.
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Without Overchannel Psionics aren't overpowered. With Overchannel it can get ridiculous.
Also, characters taking 1 level of Psychic Warrior and then Psion thereafter basically get free casting in heavy armor which is a fairly abusive use of the way the classes are written (like if you took one level of Paladin you could cast arcane spells with no spell failure).
Also, the fact that all manifesting levels stack to determine your manifester level can occasionally be overpowered with multi-classes builds (its like if having two levels of Bard added to your Wizard caster level).
you know a scion can pick up armor proficiency feats and still manifest right? Also power points stack but manifester levels don't.
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The biggest problem with psionics is people not reading the rules properly...
Also, the fact that all manifesting levels stack to determine your manifester level can occasionally be overpowered with multi-classes builds (its like if having two levels of Bard added to your Wizard caster level).
It's the same with psionics as with magic: you have as many manifesting levels as your levels in that class. A psion 5/psychic warrior 1 manifests his psion powers as 5th level and his psychic warrior powers at 1st level, unless he takes a feat to boost one or other or both of them.
What stacks are the power points, which may sound good but isn't really all that hot, as you'd get more power points as a pure-classed character.
The biggest problem with psionics is people not reading the rules properly...
Also, the fact that all manifesting levels stack to determine your manifester level can occasionally be overpowered with multi-classes builds (its like if having two levels of Bard added to your Wizard caster level).It's the same with psionics as with magic: you have as many manifesting levels as your levels in that class. A psion 5/psychic warrior 1 manifests his psion powers as 5th level and his psychic warrior powers at 1st level, unless he takes a feat to boost one or other or both of them.
What stacks are the power points, which may sound good but isn't really all that hot, as you'd get more power points as a pure-classed character.
I apologize, it takes a single feat for Practiced Manifestor to buy back four levels worth.
Which doesn't do much at all. For example, a Soulknife4/Psion1.
You can now spend up to 5 power points on a power you manifest.
I apologize, it takes a single feat for Practiced Manifestor to buy back four levels worth.
So... if your a Psionic Warrior 1/Psion 9, and you have practiced manifester(Psionic warrior), you know and can use one psionic warrior power as though you had manifester 5, which happens to cost you five points, and cost you... 16ish points and one manifester level from your psion levels. I don't think that's a great trade of myself.
Also happens to have cost you a point of BAB and gives the ability to wear armor, but with the points you could have had you could spend 9 points to have an AC bonus of 9 using inertial armor.(or 11 points for 10, using overchannel.)
Which doesn't do much at all. For example, a Soulknife4/Psion1.
You can now spend up to 5 power points on a power you manifest.
Right. Because you already got half the benefits of the class in Spells per day through the power points. . .
If I'm a Magus 1/Wizard 4 I can't take a feat to count as a Wizard 5 when casting my spells, and I can't use my Magus spells/day to cast extra Wizard magic missiles. . .
I remembered that the rule was in there because it let you qualify for prestige classes multi-classed, but these path finder boards seem to consider cheating those as perfectly fine (why bother spending five levels in Wizard, just be an Aasimar!)
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Derail: how is it cheating to follow the rules based on the FAQ?
It's not nearly as strong as you think, really.
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Right. Because you already got half the benefits of the class in Spells per day through the power points. . .
Well, really all you get is the power to spend more points up to a maximum of 4 more than you had levels in that class, limited by HD. You don't receive bonus powers known or power points from that class, nor any class features. If you were Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 4 for instance, you wouldn't even have the power points to use that ability as a 5th level manifester.
I remembered that the rule was in there because it let you qualify for prestige classes multi-classed, but these path finder boards seem to consider cheating those as perfectly fine (why bother spending five levels in Wizard, just be an Aasimar!)
Well, what the boards think and what the FAQs says are entirely different things. Its also a little offtopic, and has nothing to do with psionics to my knowledge.
Well, really all you get is the power to spend more points up to a maximum of 4 more than you had levels in that class, limited by HD. You don't receive bonus powers known or power points from that class, nor any class features. If you were Psychic Warrior 1/Fighter 4 for instance, you wouldn't even have the power points to use that ability as a 5th level manifester.
If you have an 18 Wisdom you have the power points to cast it as a 4th level though.
Well, what the boards think and what the FAQs says are entirely different things. Its also a little offtopic, and has nothing to do with psionics to my knowledge.
Its because the combined manifester levels with the feat allow you to do a similar thing (i.e. get into prestige classes requiring 5th level manifester without actually having it.)
So, would you allow a similar feat in your game for Wizards? Can I be a Wizard 6/Fighter four, spend a feat and cast my Fireball as 10d6?
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So, would you allow a similar feat in your game for Wizards? Can I be a Wizard 6/Fighter four, spend a feat and cast my Fireball as 10d6?I don't see why not.
And then there'sMagical Knack, a trait that does half of that, but then again a trait is worth half a feat.
For this hypothetical Wizard 6/Fighter 4 who spent a feat strictly to be able to do 10d6 of the most commonly resisted element in the game, good for him.
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Don't feel too bad, I nat 20'd my stealth check.
If you have an 18 Wisdom you have the power points to cast it as a 4th level though.Once (18 wis with 5 manifester lvls is 10 PP). Then you have 4 PP leftover (plus any you might gain from race, feats, or favored class bonus, so you *might* push it to 7 extra, and do it twice). You still only have access to one 1st level power.
EDIT: Also, how are you casting 4th level powers (which cost 7 PP) at manifester level 5 (which means you can't spend more than 5 PP per power), again?
Assuming you meant 3rd level powers, you can manifest it from 2 to 3 times, tops, per day.
Its because the combined manifester levels with the feat allow you to do a similar thing (i.e. get into prestige classes requiring 5th level manifester without actually having it.)
So, would you allow a similar feat in your game for Wizards? Can I be a Wizard 6/Fighter four, spend a feat and cast my Fireball as 10d6?
There's a trait for that (so 8d6, in this case). Also means you still don't have 4th level spells, so...
EDIT: My habit of opening every interesting thread in its tab brought on the ninjas, I guess.
a 4th level fighter/1st Psionic Warrior can't cast 2nd level powers, but he can cast a 1st level power using up to 5 power points, with a duration of a 5th level Psionic Warrior.
The fact that when Pathfinder updated the ability they cut its effectiveness in half suggests that +4 to your caster level/manifester level by a feat was by definition, twice as powerful as it should have been?
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a 4th level fighter/1st Psionic Warrior can't cast 2nd level powers, but he can cast a 1st level power using up to 5 power points, with a duration of a 5th level Psionic Warrior.
Not seeing the problem. He can now manifest his one psychic warrior power as if he were a 5th level character (which he is) instead of manifesting as a 1st level character. If he chose Biofeedback, he can now gain DR 3/- instead of DR 2/- for 5 minutes instead of 1. If he chose Bite of the Wolf he STILL can't augment it, as it takes 6 points to do it.
The fact that when Pathfinder updated the ability they cut its effectiveness in half suggests that +4 to your caster level/manifester level by a feat was by definition, twice as powerful as it should have been?
Or that the feat was fine and a trait is only half a feat?
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Nathanael list actual problems, and show how they are problems. So far you are just making comparisons to wizards, which are already more powerful than psions.
I will also add that a trait which is half of a feat exist in pathfinder which lets you add +2 to the caster level while multiclassed. so a feat doing it for +4 is not an issue. It does not grant higher level powers. It just raises your effective manifester level, and even then it caps at your current character level which means it makes multiclassing suck less.
That fighter 4/wiz 6 could have just gone straight wizard, not needed a feat, and more likely been more useful to the party. The psion probably has the same(Similar) advantage as a "caster", so why is this an issue?
in all fairness, the feat was published in 3.5 by Wizards. both the caster version and the psionic version.
I still contend that Overchannel and Talented are overpowered. I think there can also be issues with the Wild Talent feat and martial characters taking Psionic feats.
Also, read the rules text on page 66 in the description of Overchannel "Normal: Your Manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers."
Psionics from dream scarred press is over powered if you don't read the rules and if you make up feats that don't exist.
I think that pretty much sums everything up. :)
Yeah, quiet a bit I've heard makes psionics is just ignorance or misreading, usually innocent imo. Like my friend telling me you can do a 400D4 crystal shard rain by blowing up all your power points, or some guy told my friend you could use a no save spell that instantly killed someone by snapping there neck(Decerebrate does just that btw, but does have a save and is SR: yes).
I still contend that Overchannel and Talented are overpowered. I think there can also be issues with the Wild Talent feat and martial characters taking Psionic feats.
Can I ask what makes overchannel overpowered and what makes martials taking psionic feats overpowered?
Psionics from dream scarred press is over powered if you don't read the rules and if you make up feats that don't exist.
I think that pretty much sums everything up. :)
Yeah, quiet a bit I've heard makes psionics is just ignorance or misreading, usually innocent imo. Like my friend telling me you can do a 400D4 crystal shard rain by blowing up all your power points, or some guy told my friend you could use a no save spell that instantly killed someone by snapping there neck(Decerebrate does just that btw, but does have a save and is SR: yes).
I still contend that Overchannel and Talented are overpowered. I think there can also be issues with the Wild Talent feat and martial characters taking Psionic feats.Can I ask what makes overchannel overpowered and what makes martials taking psionic feats overpowered?
Opinions. I don't like overchannel, it lets you do more damage than you are supposed to be able to do for the level you are.
I don't like martials with Psionic feats, they are usually used for abusive alpha strikes.
These are my opinions. If you would like to argue them unproductively we can, by all means. In game experience I have never had a player want to play a Psionic character who wasn't trying to break the system one way or another. Its not used so much as a character concept as a license to try to get one over on the DM.
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I don't like martials with Psionic feats, they are usually used for abusive alpha strikes.
I'm just curious to see the math behind this abuse. Given what an average magus or cleric can pull an extra 4d6 on a single greatsword attack after spending three feats sounds amusing at best and a trap at worst.
I'm just curious to see the math behind this abuse. Given what an average magus or cleric can pull an extra 4d6 on a single greatsword attack after spending three feats sounds amusing at best and a trap at worst.
I don't like martials with Psionic feats, they are usually used for abusive alpha strikes.
Because there is no limit to times per day. Concentrate again and you get that extra 4d6 back infinitely. Infinite encounters per day you can start with it up.
Martial characters are already built/balanced with the idea that while a caster can do more damage that increased damage is limited to X times per day, whereas the greatsword will always do 2d6+6 every single swing.
When you start giving the greatsword swinger the ability to do 6d6+6 the first swing of every fight it changes the entire way the system is built.
Would you let your spell casters take a set of feats that let them regen one of their third level spells so that it comes back at the start of every encounter? And they can spend an action to get the spell slot back additionally?
There will always be some people who don't like something and who will use their dislike to insist that what they dislike is badly done and broken. I don't think there's anything to be gained by pressing the conversation Tark.I'm just curious to see the math behind this abuse. Given what an average magus or cleric can pull an extra 4d6 on a single greatsword attack after spending three feats sounds amusing at best and a trap at worst.
I don't like martials with Psionic feats, they are usually used for abusive alpha strikes.
And there are always people who like something and will let their like of it ignore problems without considering them. If you love psionics no number of possible problems that I can point out are going to change your mind.
I pointed out a few corner cases that have the possibility for abuse. That's all. If you are on the fence about psionics you should make sure you read those corner cases and think hard about it before letting them into your game.
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Martial characters are already built/balanced
HAHA! no.
Would you let your spell casters take a set of feats that let them regen one of their third level spells so that it comes back at the start of every encounter? And they can spend an action to get the spell slot back additionally?
Yes.
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I still contend that Overchannel and Talented are overpowered. I think there can also be issues with the Wild Talent feat and martial characters taking Psionic feats.
Also, read the rules text on page 66 in the description of Overchannel "Normal: Your Manifester level is equal to your total levels in classes that manifest powers."
What is overpowered is subjective. What is too good for one table can be weak at another. The only time something should be considered OP is when 99% of the community agrees, but I have had both of those feats in my game in 3.5, and they never caused a problem. Sometimes the way a GM runs a game can be the problem also.
Example: If you constantly nova and the GM allows you to rest at will as if the world revolves around you then that will be an issue. If the GM keeps the world moving and has the bad guys notice people are missing and adjust according then resting so much can cause the group problems or even get them killed.
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Stuff
Here's some issues I'm taking here. And we'll think hard as you say.
This is a two to three feat investment for 4d6 damage that does not multiply on a critical hit for a single hit. Since we're talking two handers let's stick to that.
For some comparisons using the same number of feats:
Power Attack/Furious Focus:
Prerequisites: +1 BAB and 13 strength.
Total Potential damage: +3 per 4 bab. On a martial character that's 18 additional damage on every hit
Cost: -1 attack per 4 bab. If you've taken Furious focus this is negated on the first attack.
Arcane Strike
Prerequisites: some arcane caster ability.
Total potential damage: +5 damage on every hit per 5 caster levels.
Cost: A swift action. Plus continuing to level in an arcane caster class. Easy enough for bards and maguses.
Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization
Prerequisites: 4 fighter levels or at least in a class/archetype that allows it.
Total potential damage: +1 attack and +2 damage on every hit. Low compared to others but.
Cost: Must be using weapon specified.
Now let's look at the aforementioned psionic bogeyman.
Psionic Weapon/Greater Psionic Weapon
Prerequisites: 13 str and +6 bab.
Total Potential Damage: +2 on every hit while focused
Cost: +2 damage is passive while focus is maintained. 4d6 must expend psionic focus. Takes a full round action to gain back.
I don't know. I think I'd find it funny that a fighter took Wild Talent, Psionic Weapon, and Greater Psionic weapon to get less benefit than he would have just taking Power Attack. If he's doing what you think he is and optimizing he's doing it poorly.
Now he could be from a race with a spell like ability and decide to use his caster levels on Arcane Strike. Get power attack and then get Wild Talent and Psionic weapon by level three. That would be fairly impressive damage. In fact on that feared first attack it would be....
2d6+6 (str) +1 Arcane Strike +3 Power Attack + 4d6 psionic weapon blow
Total Damage 6d6+10 or around 28 on round 1. Pretty sweet.
But again let's do some honest work here. Let's invest three feats in something else. Let's say the fighter decided to go mounted instead.
He'll take power attack furious focus, and the three mounted feats. That's a similar investment. What's his damage look like?
3d8+ 18 Str + 9 Power Attack for around 39 damage on that first charge.
Odd, the other guy invested so much more on his damage didn't he?
Now it's a fair argument to make that the other guy is doing his damage all the time As in it doesn't cost him much right? True. So let's look at a different class. How abouutttt monk?
1d6+4 less than half of our friend here and less than his initial investment in a greatsword. Worse we're going to make him a Master of Many Styles because someone watched too much Wuxia.
We'll grab for our Feats, Power Attack, Dragon Style, and Dragon Ferocity. We'll also grab Belier's bite and for the hell of it we'll grab Tiger Style to set up for Tiger Claws at 5th. Than at 5th level we'll grab tiger pounce and finally tiger pounce at 6th.
Now how much damage are we doing on that one attack?
1d6+1d4 bleed (beliers bite) 8 (dragon feats)+ 2 Power Attack for around 15 damage. That's not very impressive compared to our fighter friend. But hey it is using a one handed weapon after all. :)
But hey we can take a full round action to use tiger claws. That bumps our damage up to 32. Yikes.
More than that that's damage I'm doing every round compared to the one round wonder greatsword arcane psionicist. At this point he's doing 16 so only one damage more.
Oh but we're talking about spellcasters too.
Consider your average magus at the level you can drop 6d6 can and will drop 7d6 shocking grasp spellstrikes with regularity and thanks to spell recall quite frequently the ability to do it once every 12 seconds feels kind of lame in comparison. And this is honestly one of the less nasty means to use a magus.
In conclusion this isn't a corner case to think hard about but something worth dismissing. It's a trap for any martial honestly thinking about dealing damage. Even as a psychic warrior I'd rather invest in things that will, well, let me deal more damage without blowing my focus.
I'm not going to touch Overchannel. Not While Spell specialization and
spell perfection exist.
@Shadowcat: I'm sure you're probably right. But I'm a sucker for teaching people how this game works and breaking up misconceptions. Even if it's no better than pushing a boulder up a hill. And exercises like this are interesting.
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An important note about that big alpha strike:
you might miss.
Bah my numbers are off because I'm not assuming bab increases (you need +6 for GPW which would add another 3 power attack damage to the numbers.