I am going to prefix by saying not one of these is going to be wisdom to hit. sorry, but I frankly don't see monks receiving that from paizo, and these are suggestions for a rewrite somewhere down the line (assuming paizo would want minimal changes. Would be cool if they did though...otherwise, assuming they wouldn't do that...
1. ki pool is now equal to wis+1/2level+2 additional point for every 4 levels of monk, and is burned as a free action. This is alot I know, but it makes sense when used with the other changes.
2.diamond soul only applies spell resistance to enemies. if a freaking eidolon can so should the monk.
3.When someone with levels in monk uses stunning fist has it activate off the attack roll and it lasts for 2 rounds plus 1 additional round for every 4 levels of monk they have. Opponents are allowed a fortitude every round AFTER the round they are stunned to end it at the begining of their next turn. Burning a ki point increases the save DC by +1 for every 4 monk levels the user possesses.
4. This one is kinda big. Subsume the quigong archetype into the primary class and simply grant the quigong powers at appropriate levels without replacing any class features. Spell-like quigong powers that specifically target the monk add the monks level in rounds to their duration. This only works specifically on monks (sorry sensei).
True strike is going to be popular, as well as barkskin. It's only 4 changes, and realistically (unless you are using core only) most monks have the quigong archetype. now you are just adding the abilities instead of replacing them. note that it may be necessary to scale a few of these abilities back some when applied to certain monk archetypes, (sohei maybe, zen archer certainly). will work on those later. thoughts?
1) I'm good on having more ki, but the formula is a little more complicated than I'd like.
2) I do this already. In fact I cant think of any times where we didn't play it like this.
3) I think for this one the ki burning would be enough.
4) This may be too much for the Monk as is but flavor-wise I like the idea of Quigong Monk powers and style feats being rewritten into the base monk. It opens up a lot of design space, however I think that the monk would have to be rewritten to accommodate it.
[Q]1. ki pool is now equal to wis+1/2level+2 additional point for every 4 levels of monk, and is burned as a free action. This is alot I know, but it makes sense when used with the other changes. [/Q]
The +2 for every 4 levels in monk is basically +1 for every 2 levels if you want to simplify this.
This basicically means wis+1/2 level +1/2 level. Which is wisdom + level.
So if you want to make it easier to calculate (and just plain better for monks that aren't level 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, because of how the fractions work), you could just simplify it to:
Ki pool is now equal to wis+monk level.
Can someone tell me what's wrong with my quote tag?... I'm sorta new.
Can someone tell me what's wrong with my quote tag?... I'm sorta new.
you have to spell out quote in the brackets. As to why I did the jumps, I originally had it as +1 for every 4, but I didn't think that was enough. will fix, and I almost think we could go higher, like 1 1/2 wis mod as well.
ooh new crazy thought., monks receive an additional ki point for every quigong power they possess. really emphasizes staying as a monk.
Ok version 2.bold represents changes
1. ki pool is now equal to wisdom + level, and is burned as a free action.
A monk recieves an additional ki point for every quigong power they know.
2.diamond soul only applies spell resistance to enemies. if a freaking eidolon can so should the monk.
3.When someone with levels in monk uses stunning fist has it activate off the attack roll and it lasts for 2 rounds plus 1 additional round for every 4 levels of monk they have. Opponents are allowed a fortitude every round AFTER the round they are stunned to end it at the begining of their next turn. Burning a ki point increases the save DC by +1 for every 4 monk levels the user possesses, when using stunning fist.
4.Subsume the quigong archetype into the primary class and simply grant the quigong powers at appropriate levels without replacing any class features. Zen archer and possibly sohei will be adjusted slightly (certain class features will be converted into quigong powers).
New Feat
Extra quigong Power
Prerequisite
quigong power class feature
Benefit
You may gain an additional quigong power appropriate to your monk level. However you do not receive an additional ki point for learning this power.
the following zen archer class features are now quigong powers exclusive to that archetype. At 4th level Zen Archery (1 ki lasts for 1 hour/level), Ki Range (aka the ki pool modification, still 1 point for 1 round), point blank master (0 ki) and at 6th level Ki Arrows (still 1 point. The zen archer now receives the following core monk abilities again, maneuver traing, evasion, and still mind.
Is this a slight reduction in the zen archer archetype, well yeah, it would have been ridiculously powerful with the core monk changes. I reckon this is still close too as powerful as the original.
Next I'll look at the sohei
Next I'll look at the soheiI think level 6 is too late to get flurry with their chosen weapon. I'd probably let them select a weapon group at level 3 or possibly even 2 to match the Ranger combat style to flurry with and another at 9 or 8 while leaving weapon training where it is.
And I'd either remove armor proficiency or let them flurry in armor. I think the latter since they're a very non-mystic archetype, but the important thing is that a lot of people find having proficiency with something that disables class abilities confusing.
i am actually considering a armored flurry quigong power.
I really liked the Sohei from ADnD/1e Oriental Adventures.
If you can even approach that in Pathfinder I would be happy. I wasn't going to use the Monk as a base though...nor make it mounted at all.
I mean I looked at the 1e OA and thought about a conversion. Using Monk wasn't high on my last but an armored weapon flurry sounds cool.
From that oldskool source I think I liked the fighting beyond 0 hit points schtick from memory, which other classes archetypes do have in PF IIRC..,
I like your idea, i think that'll make a pretty awesome quigong power.
Sohei changes
class abilities turned into quigong powers
Monastic Mount (4th level, 1 ki): abilities returned...none, instead those abilties are replaced by the mount cavalier class feature (seriously, a mounted class that doesn't receive a mount. pet peeve fixed)
Ki weapon (4th level, 1 ki): abilities returned...slow fall and abundant step.
(bonus Quigong powers)
Armored Flurry(4th level, 0 ki): A sohei may use his flurry of blows while wearing light armor.
Added to sohei
Diehard: replaces 1st level bonus feat
Deathless Initiate: Replaces 6th level bonus feat
Deasthless Master: Replaces 10th level bonus feat.
btw should any other archetypes be glanced at?
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Wisdom-to-hit is actually sort of legacy. 1e monks did not get to add their STR bonus to hit/damage (as other character classes did) and instead received a damage bonus based upon their level, and so the logic followed that their martial arts was more based in metaphysical techniques. it doesn't take a stretch to re-skin this as Wisdom-to-hit.
someone awhile back suggested an alternate Perfect Self that near-doubled the ki pool (to WIS+LV) and turned the swift action abilities into free actions. i thought that was a very cool idea for a capstone.
i agree with you about Diamond Soul. or, to walk the middle ground (and allow a well-timed enemy ready action!), immediate to disable, free to restore.
i like Stunning Fist as it is. the 4/8/12/16/20 abilities already last longer than 1 round, and stunning for 1 round is pretty damn good. Wisdom-to-hit actually addresses this quite nicely. maybe you could have an alternate 'hard style' monk who gets Strength-to-DC?
maybe you could propose an alternate monk who chooses between the standard ki pool abilites at 4th level (full enhancement ki strike, extra attack, extra move, extra dodge), or begins to advance like a 4-level caster with more emphasis on mystical quigong abilities over straight martial abilities?
also, what do you think of Wholeness of Body? i am a fan of 'all ki for full hp' myself. or this!
In my other rewrite I used that method. As far as wisdom to hit, I do wan it...Maybe as quigong power called insightful strike (Sensei gets it early instead, and may select it again for damage). I prefer a single unified class. Being able to spam truestrike already does wonders for landing a stunning fist when it counts, its the save against the most common good save in the game is where it falters. that's why I left in the spending a ki to increase DC. It uses resources but it is a valuable tool.
Here is a thought but what if i incorporated the master of many styles archetype as well? Something's are going to be moved around, but i think it might be doable.
I guess the armored flurry power is redundant now that they have ruled the sohei can flurry in armor
So I got the core Monk rewrite up in a google doc here, will work on adding the archetypes later. I may look at all the monk archetypes for this one.
edit: oh and comments are allowed on the doc, so have at it.
granted proficiency in all monk weapons and added the following to bonus feats
Bonus Feat
At 1st level, 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a monk may select a bonus feat. These feats must be taken from the following list:
Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything.
At 6th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Gorgon's Fist, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip, and Mobility.
At 10th level, the following feats are added to the list:
Improved Critical, Medusa's Wrath, Snatch Arrows, and Spring Attack.
A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them.
Alternatively a monk may select any style feat at 4th level as a bonus feat. at 6th level and beyond a monk may select any feat that lists the style feat chosen at 4th as a prerequisite.
master of many styles while be adjusted accordingly.
I very much don't approve. The best thing about the Sohei as a mounted class is that it's not shackled to a class feature mount.
Monastic Mount gives 2/3 the HP of leveling a mount as a druid companion, but can be refreshed for 1 ki because it's in the form of temporary hitpoints, and it can be applied to anything you can use handle animal to tame and ride to, well, ride.
Find an orphaned young gryphon? Sucks to be a cavalier, but the Sohei is in business. Even enemies are potential mounts if a friend prepared charm monster. Or Snowy the zombie camel.
Need to fly somewhere? A mounted Paladin can stow his mount in the celestial realms and use a personal method of flight, but every other mounted class is SOL. Except the Sohei, who can apply Monastic Mount to a phantom steed.
Need to teleport? Large animals cut into the teleport target limit pretty badly, but a Sohei can always get a temporary replacement from a level 1 slot until he gets something more permanent.
Give the sohei a mount class feature and suddenly "mount" in Monastic Mount takes on a new and much more limited meaning. And you have to trade off something else to get it.
1. You can still do all of that, or you can pick up a free mount that actually levels with you, now you just have a choice.
2.having that griffin is a lot less awesome when it gets slaughtered in 3 levels.3.potion of flight, given to mount, or even smarter drink it yourself.
4. leave the mount behind, call a new one when you get to your destination. This option is Worse if you don't have a mount class feature.
you assume the class feature *has* to apply to the mount, but RAW it does not, the class feature isn't called out. In fact the expert trainer class ability implies the cavalier doesn't even follow any such restriction.
also got the first of the archetypes done in a seperate doc here. Next up I will flesh out sohei, do master of many styles, and probably monk of the healing hand after that.
Interesting changes...but what problems are you actually fixing with them?
I always find it best to define the problem before going for the solution.
Interesting changes...but what problems are you actually fixing with them?
I always find it best to define the problem before going for the solution.
well quigong nearly makes the monk playable if it weren't for the lack of ki, which significantly increased even for non-wisdom based monks. MAD is reduced greatly by the duration boost to things like true strike(still one attack only) and barkskin. My changes grant the monk far greater battlefield control with its improved stunning fist (now very usable when combined with true strike) as well as various ki powers. Then there is the added bonus of free style feats at 4th level and up. I do like your changes though, and i wonder if i would be good if combined with mine.
I have found the monk struggles in actually hitting his targets and getting through DR. For a combat class, that's a big problem.
I have found the monk struggles in actually hitting his targets and getting through DR. For a combat class, that's a big problem.
at mid to high levels this true, and even with my changes the DR thing remains true(hence why im stealing that ftom you). However my monk changes encourage utility over damage, and extended repeat castings of true strike plus free style feats like dragon do help a great deal in the combat department.
I have found the monk struggles in actually hitting his targets and getting through DR. For a combat class, that's a big problem.at mid to high levels this true, and even with my changes the DR thing remains true(hence why im stealing that ftom you). However my monk changes encourage utility over damage, and extended repeat castings of true strike plus free style feats like dragon do help a great deal in the combat department.
You do realize, extending the duration of True Strike won't really help Monks any right?
You gain temporary, intuitive insight into the immediate future during your next attack. Your next single attack roll (if it is made before the end of the next round) gains a +20 insight bonus. Additionally, you are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target.
All extending the duration would do, is allow a Monk to hold off in making that attack for a more opportune moment. It wouldn't allow the Monk to make a flurry of blows with +20 to each attack or anything like that, because the bonus only applies on the first attack made after casting the spell.
Yeah i meant to clarify in the doc about that, allowing one true strike per round for its full duration.
We must be looking at different versions of True Strike, because my reading states, "Your next single attack roll--" and lists no duration. So, for how long were you intending the monk to gain +20 to hit once per round? And are you suggesting that the monk gets that +20 to hit on the first attack per round, or on any attack in the round?
If you're going to change the way a spell works when it's a ki power, you probably shouldn't label it as the same spell effect anymore.
And, incidentally, gaining the effects of True Strike for even a single additional round after the initial benefit is used is equivalent to the use of the 3.5 Metamagic feat Repeat Spell, which would raise the level of the spell from 1st level to 4th level. In which case, what you're suggesting should not be a 4th level ki power costing 1 ki point, but more in line with the 4th level spell Restoration, gained as a ki power at 6th level and costing 2 ki points.
True Strike has an effective duration of 2 rounds. It lasts until your next attack roll, or the end of the next round.
Perhaps before altering the way a spell works to suit you, you could add a different spell that gives a bonus to attack and/or damage that already has a duration. Magic Fang, Magic Weapon, and Divine Favor are all 1st level spells that grant bonuses to attack and damage, and all have a duration of at least 1 minute. Greater Magic Fang/Magic Weapon scale with caster level, and could completely alleviate the need for a +5 Amulet of Mighty Fists. Divine Favor scales with level as well, and as a luck bonus it stacks with the enhancement bonus from GMF/GMW and the insight bonus from True Strike.
But if you're REALLY stuck on a multi-use True Strike, consider this as your baseline:
School: Divination
Level: sorcerer/wizard 4
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Components: V,S, M (a small glass eyeball)
Range: personal
Target: you
Duration: 3 rounds
Saving Throw: none
Spell Resistance: no
When cast, this spell grants you a +20 bonus on up to three attack rolls, but never more than one per round. Additionally, these attacks are not affected by the miss chance that applies to attackers trying to strike a concealed target. As soon as the caster makes three augmented attack rolls or the spell's duration expires, the effect ends.
And that's still more powerful than the Repeat Spell example I gave earlier, seeing as how you get to pick and choose which attacks get the bonus.
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The problem with true strike added to FoB is that it really doesn't significantly improve your number of hits. Sure, the first attack connects, but the rest don't then contribute much against a high AC target. Given the monk's usually low damage output, he needs multiple hits to have an effect. An ability like divine favor that boosts all your attacks would be much more useful.