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There is no rebuild being offered in this instance.Why not? At least 2 feats for a level 11 TWF gunslinger become moot, as would their second gun if they no longer wanted to use TWF(understandably).
1) Don't build your character (2 feats) around a 1 silver piece item.
2) Use the Ultimate Campaign rules to rebuild.
edit: 3) This change could affect every single class and character build out there. So arguing for a free rebuild means you're arguing that EVERY PFS character should get a free rebuild.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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actually a haunted oracle. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there.Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.So... Houserules?
There is no rebuild being offered in this instance.Why not? At least 2 feats for a level 11 TWF gunslinger become moot, as would their second gun if they no longer wanted to use TWF(understandably).
People may sell back the weapon cord at full price if they like, but no rebuilds due to the change of one piece of equipment.
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Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.
So... House rules?
Not as I understand the term, no. My table ruling about how an oracle's curse works.
The way folks around here use the term, a house rule is something like "you can drink a potion of lesser restoration as a standard action, but the effects don't manifest until two rounds later, at the completion of the casting time of the spell." Or "Everybody at the table gets a re-roll." Or "We roll new initiatives every round."
People may sell back the weapon cord at full price if they like, but no rebuilds due to the change of one piece of equipment.
But why not? The change was specifically to shut down a particular build. It did a lot more to those people than just make them lose their weapon cord. If its a tracking issue I understand, but it really did kill that particular build(unless they grow a third arm or gain another way to perform TWF with their guns).
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People may sell back the weapon cord at full price if they like, but no rebuilds due to the change of one piece of equipment.But why not? The change was specifically to shut down a particular build. It did a lot more to those people than just make them lose their weapon cord. If its a tracking issue I understand, but it really did kill that particular build(unless they grow a third arm or gain another way to perform TWF with their guns).
Seems to me it is now working as it always was intended to. There are other options available to still make the build work if people still want to. No rebuilds.
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But why not? The change was specifically to shut down a particular build. It did a lot more to those people than just make them lose their weapon cord. If its a tracking issue I understand, but it really did kill that particular build(unless they grow a third arm or gain another way to perform TWF with their guns).
For one, I think Kyle hit on it that it would open up a can of worms in the future where anyone can claim a rebuild for every little change that comes in the future. (like, a bloatmage aasimar asking for a rebuild because he would have qualified for the PrC a lot sooner with the SLA ruling).
People with that build have a lot of options. Gloves of storing are one. Picking up Quick Draw. Getting multiple guns to have loaded. Monkey belt... They just need to invest a bit more than 1sp it looks like.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Is it even fair at this point to point out to the prehensile tail/hair fans that the tiefling's tail allows you to "retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action"?
That is directly from the PRD.
It doesn't say anything about letting you RELOAD A WEAPON as any sort of action at all.
Also, it specifically says in the description for Prehensile Hair that "Her hair can manipulate objects (but not weapons) as dexterously as a human hand."
I think it should be pretty clear that reloading a firearm is manipulating a weapon, and therefore not possible with Prehensile Hair.
Tiefling TWF gunslinger firing sequence
Round 1.
Draw right hand pistol (free action with quick draw feat), fire, reload with left-hand free, repeat last two steps for all main-hand attacks.
Grab right hand pistol in tail (swift action).
Draw left hand pistol (free action), fire, reload with right-hand free, repeat last two steps for all off-hand attacks.end round with one pistol in tail and one pistol in left hand.
Round 2 (and all even rounds).
Switch handedness (optional, you can fire your off-hand attacks first if you want).
Fire left hand pistol, reloading with right hand free for all main-hand attacks.
Draw pistol with right hand from prehensile tail (free action).
Grab pistol from left hand with prehensile tail (swift action).
Fire right hand pistol, reloading with left hand free for all off-hand attacks.end round with one pistol in tail and one pistol in right hand
Round 3 (and all odd rounds after round 1.)
Switch handedness (optional, you can fire your off-hand attacks first if you want).
Fire right hand pistol, reloading with left hand free for all main-hand attacks.
Draw pistol with left hand from prehensile tail (free action).
Grab pistol from right hand with prehensile tail (swift action).
Fire left hand pistol, reloading with right hand free for all off-hand attacks.end round with one pistol in tail and one pistol in...
You know, some would interpret the Prehensile Tail alternate racial trait as only letting you transfer an item from "stored" to "in-hand", rather than being able to sit there holding an item. Just saying.
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4. tiefling with prehensile tail, dip into one level of witch for the prehensile hair hex, dip two levels into alchemist for the vestigial arm were the ways which made the TWF gunslinger work before the clarification of attack order which made weapon cords a viable option. We could add one level of synthesist summoner with a four armed eidolon, grippli with a prehensile tongue, and probably at least one other thing I haven't thought of.
Since a one-level dip into Witch would only give them the ability to use Prehensile Hair once per day for 1 minute, that doesn't actually seem like it would be particularly unbalancing.
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actually a haunted oracle. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there.Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.So... Houserules?
There is no rebuild being offered in this instance.Why not? At least 2 feats for a level 11 TWF gunslinger become moot, as would their second gun if they no longer wanted to use TWF(understandably).
Numerous posters have mentioned other methods of gaining the full attack; the monkey belt is an example.
Alternatively, maybe they have Quick-Draw and can purchase a few more pistols? Alternatively, they can make use of Ultimate Campaign and jigger a few feats around.
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Many tieflings have tails, but some have long, flexible tails that can be used to carry items. While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action.
right they can carry a pistol but not hold it.
If a GM were to make that ruling to me I would take the grasping tail feat which includes "special: If you have the prehensile tail racial trait, you can use your tail to grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action as well as to grab stowed objects carried on your person; you can hold such objects with your tail, though you cannot manipulate them with your tail (other than to put them in your hand)" and make a point of grabbing items with my tail whenever not in combat just to shove it in the GM's face.
Why would you shove anything in the face of someone who has volunteered 4-5 hours of their time to provide free entertainment to you?
Alternatively, maybe they have Quick-Draw and can purchase a few more pistols? Alternatively, they can make use of Ultimate Campaign and jigger a few feats around.
That's exactly what I was trying to avoid actually. If your going to make them rebuild may as well not make them pay out of pocket. Also its ridiculously expensive to buy a mass of guns, and gunslingers aren't known for their amazing strength.
Funny how the first line of an ability is never "flavor text" when it's adding an option, only when it's a restriction. ;)
We'll... The alternative to tails being able to carry is that they couldn't carry, which would be awkward. I'd imagine it'd look like; "So I just pulled the flask out of my pocket with my tail and it slipped onto the ground." "What?" "Well I can draw it, but not hold it. So obviously, I'm just throwing things onto the ground." "Your prehensile tail isn't very prehensile..." "Well your vestigial arm isn't actually vestigial"
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actually a haunted oracle. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there.Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.So... Houserules?
There is no rebuild being offered in this instance.Why not? At least 2 feats for a level 11 TWF gunslinger become moot, as would their second gun if they no longer wanted to use TWF(understandably).
He doesn't become Moot. He just has to buy Gloves of Storing or a Monkey Belt now. If he does that, his trick still works.
He doesn't become Moot. He just has to buy Gloves of Storing or a Monkey Belt now. If he does that, his trick still works.
Sort of, the monkey belt has different rules and eats up your belt slot and the gloves are... expensive, but by the time you hit 11th I would think it would be a somewhat fair price(though I'd hate to pay 10k out of pocket suddenly, don't always have that.)
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actually a haunted oracle. Since any item I drop moves 10 feet away. Now when I drop the morning star to cast--the cord keeps it from going 10 feet away--still there.Mileage varies, but at my table, the same spirits that skitter your weapon away when you let go of it also untie the weapon cords. The gods are not so easily mocked.
Funny, At my table the item dropped drags you along with it causing you to fall prone.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Why would you shove anything in the face of someone who has volunteered 4-5 hours of their time to provide free entertainment to you?Because it is a silly ruling made to ruin a player's character concept and it deserves to be mocked.
I think you might have missed Mike's point:
Why would you, as a decent human being, think that the best response to any offense (no matter how wrong the other person might be), would ever be to shove something in their face?"Hey, my GM's being a dick. Maybe if I'm a dick right back, everything will be better!"
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Someone much wiser than me once said, "No matter how full of crap someone is, a second a&!%!*$ doesn't help."
Note: This is not only a good social rule, but also sound medical advice. ;)
I used to moderate for WotC's online community. I would commonly get people defending their awful behavior by stating that they were only responding to the other guy's awful behavior. My response was, "'She started it' doesn't work with my 3 & 5 year old daughters. It's not going to work with supposedly mature adults."
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Why would you shove anything in the face of someone who has volunteered 4-5 hours of their time to provide free entertainment to you?Many tieflings have tails, but some have long, flexible tails that can be used to carry items. While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action.
right they can carry a pistol but not hold it.
If a GM were to make that ruling to me I would take the grasping tail feat which includes "special: If you have the prehensile tail racial trait, you can use your tail to grab unattended items within 5 feet as a swift action as well as to grab stowed objects carried on your person; you can hold such objects with your tail, though you cannot manipulate them with your tail (other than to put them in your hand)" and make a point of grabbing items with my tail whenever not in combat just to shove it in the GM's face.
Mike,
I want to take a moment to applaud this rule. It allows the weapon cords to work as intended (you don't have to worry about dropping the weapon) keeps disarm viable (at the very least, no full attack for the bad guy next turn) and keeps Gatling, the pistolero gunslinger from dominating the game (and other such silliness.)
Not allowing rebuilds is perfectly fine by me.
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I used to moderate for WotC's online community. I would commonly get people defending their awful behavior by stating that they were only responding to the other guy's awful behavior. My response was, "'She started it' doesn't work with my 3 & 5 year old daughters. It's not going to work with supposedly mature adults."Someone much wiser than me once said, "No matter how full of crap someone is, a second a&!%!*$ doesn't help."
Note: This is not only a good social rule, but also sound medical advice. ;)
Your expectations for the level of discourse are entirely too high for gamers.
Or politicians.
:)
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There is still the rule of free actions. I think a double barrel flintlock wielding pistolero or musket master can get all his shots off, but with the cheese of TWF pistolero, you need to just say no.
To quote the FAQ: the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances.
And if someone wants to shove it into my face, he is free to leave my table.
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The options a player has in dealing with an abusive GM are limited: 1) quit and don't play with the GM, which is too serious for this type of offense; 2) out-of-game interaction which is already involved when the ruling is made and hasn't worked; 3) ignoring the GM's offense, which is fine for minor things but gimping a character concept while still having the player play that character is not a minor offense; 4) in game reminding the GM of their silly decision.
If you think walking away from the game is "too serious" at the same time that you think mocking someone is appropriate, then you have some things you need to get straightened out before this conversation can continue in any productive fashion. Best of luck to you.
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4) in game reminding the GM of their silly decision.
1. One of the rules in PFS is "Don't be a jerk." It's a really good rule, because not only does it remind people to be courteous to one another, but it also applies to other areas in the game. For instance, making horribly broken builds that invalidate every encounter right off the bat, such as our gunslinger with 14 attacks is kind of being a jerk to everybody else at the table who doesn't get to participate in the game, and to the GM who (usually) planned to run some fun combats.
An example of this is that we have a cleric that channels negative energy with the Rulership variant channel ability which dazes targets who fail their save. This cleric also has quick channel and can do this twice around, has maximized the DC, and then uses an imp from the Diabolist prestige class to cast ill omen out of a wand. With 4d20 and take the lower basically, there's a high chance that some BBEG somewhere does nothing that combat. Not meaning to offend people who run this build.
I would argue that continuously harassing a GM about a decision you disagree with rather than moving on after it's been made falls neatly under being a jerk. And if you did that to me I'd probably kick you from my table.
2. "Two wrongs don't make a right," is also something you may have heard before, and it most certainly applies here. If you feel the GM is making a bad call there are other ways to address this in a mature fashion, such as talking with your VL or VC, or even emailing campaign leadership about the ruling. But being a d*** at the table is not a good thing to do because it just makes the entire game unpleasant for everyone.
Edit:
Another thing people suggest often is not building your character around abilities that are ambiguous and subject to variance in GM interpretation. Clear Spindle Ioun Stone resonance bonus and Harpy Song is a good instance of this. Based on the way the rules were written, there's going to be differences in how people read them, so at one table you might be able to play your character as you expect, but at other tables maybe not.
I have a negative energy channeling cleric who raises dead. But because there are lots of characters out there who don't like undead for RP reasons, the character was built deliberately to avoid animating dead because its unreliable.
Perhaps instead of preparing to be confrontational about anticipated ruling variance, you should instead take a more preventative approach and avoid those character options.
Using their position as GM to twist language and create an absurd situation just to neutralize a character is an abuse of GM authority to control the game and deserves mockery.
You'd be shocked how many GMs I've met think that its their job. I wouldn't say it deserves mockery though, probably could find a better way to phrase your dislike.
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Many tieflings have tails, but some have long, flexible tails that can be used to carry items. While they cannot wield weapons with their tails, they can use them to retrieve small, stowed objects carried on their persons as a swift action.
No problem carrying the item... but... I don't think a held weapon counts as a "stowed object".
Grasping Tail would probably work though... as long as you weren't in water or mud, or flying.
Though I also don't see why you can "draw" your weapon from a tail. It seems that would involve two swift actions per turn. Once to transfer a gun to hand, one to grab a gun from the ground.
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Using their position as GM to twist language and create an absurd situation just to neutralize a character is an abuse of GM authority to control the game and deserves mockery.You'd be shocked how many GMs I've met think that its their job. I wouldn't say it deserves mockery though, probably could find a better way to phrase your dislike.
Again, GMs are terrible, terrible people. My recommendation to anyone thinking that GMs are out to get them is to play games that don't have GMs, that'll show them!
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Using their position as GM to twist language and create an absurd situation just to neutralize a character is an abuse of GM authority to control the game and deserves mockery.You'd be shocked how many GMs I've met think that its their job. I wouldn't say it deserves mockery though, probably could find a better way to phrase your dislike.
So if you have had so many bad gms then why don't you step up and show them the proper way to do it? Gm's are human and do make mistakes but at least they are willing to volunteer their time to run something for you to enjoy. To be honest, especially with your posting history, you sound like the type of player that cheeses the rules and tries to bend and break them just to "win"
Again, GMs are terrible, terrible people. My recommendation to anyone thinking that GMs are out to get them is to play games that don't have GMs, that'll show them!
Hey, don't take it that way! I've met good and bad on both sides of the table.
My recommendation is that you play nice! Also bring cookies to the table and remind them that you did every time something comes up. That'll really show em'!
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Again, GMs are terrible, terrible people. My recommendation to anyone thinking that GMs are out to get them is to play games that don't have GMs, that'll show them!Hey, don't take it that way! I've met good and bad on both sides of the table.
My recommendation is that you play nice! Also bring cookies to the table and remind them that you did every time something comes up. That'll really show em'!
"Hey, he can't flank me from there!"
"Eat this cookie and take 5d6 sneak attack damage.";)
Again, GMs are terrible, terrible people. My recommendation to anyone thinking that GMs are out to get them is to play games that don't have GMs, that'll show them!Hey, don't take it that way! I've met good and bad on both sides of the table.
My recommendation is that you play nice! Also bring cookies to the table and remind them that you did every time something comes up. That'll really show em'!
"Hey, he can't flank me from there!"
"Eat this cookie and take 5d6 sneak attack damage."
;)
Hmm... Is a cookie worth 5D6? I suppose I'd have to ask what kind of cookie it was.
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If you think that mocking someone is as serious as leaving a game then I think you need to get straightened out. Personally I wish I had thought of MrSin's response as it is much more light-hearted than mine, but the idea is the same, make a silly decision and get mocked for it. If a GM's ego is so fragile that it cannot handle a player in-game mocking a silly ruling they made, then the GM has some more serious problems.
So in a previous post you suggested that GMs were also benefitting from your participating at their table which was a "payment" for their volunteered hours.
When you do this, is that really the case still? Are you being a pleasant addition to that table?
I'd probably kick you from my table if you started openly mocking me while I was running a game. It's not about having a fragile ego, it's just not being interested in wasting time dealing with that kind of crap and not wanting to drag the table down because of your bad attitude.
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If a GM's ego is so fragile that it cannot handle a player in-game mocking a silly ruling they made, then the GM has some more serious problems.There's a difference between handle and tolerate.
This.
I can handle it.
But I refuse to tolerate it.
You seem to think mocking is no big deal. Perhaps your definition, and everyone elses definition of that word is different?