As the title says, this is my second attempt at building a melee bard that is not an Arcane Duelist. While i like the title of "Arcane Duelist" which is the main concept of this character i did not want to give up some of the main bard goodies.
So any advice and thoughts on where to go from here would be great. Anything i missed, or better options would be great. I want to play a Human just cause thats how he looks in my mind and this is for Pathfinder Society so i wanted to be useful in a few different ways, in and out of combatwise. Ya know, be a good team player.
Alain the Dandy Duelist(77252-6)
Male Human (Taldan) Bard 1
CN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +3
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 12, flat-footed 14 (+3 armor, +1 shield, +2 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Dagger +3 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Longsword +3 (1d8+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Unarmed strike +3 (1d3+3/x2)
Ranged Sling +2 (1d4+3/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day, bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (1 targets) (dc 12), bardic performance: inspire courage +1
Bard Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (2/day) Saving Finale (DC 13), Timely Inspiration (DC 13)
0 (at will) Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound (DC 12), Prestidigitation (DC 12)
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Statistics
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Str 17, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 14
Base Atk +0; CMB +3; CMD 15
Feats Arcane Strike, Lingering Performance
Traits Focused Mind, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +4, Climb +1, Diplomacy +6, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (history) +2, Knowledge (local) +6, Linguistics +5, Perception +3, Perform (dance) +6, Perform (oratory) +6, Ride +0, Stealth +0, Swim +1, Use Magic Device +6
Languages Common, Hallit, Skald
SQ bardic knowledge
Combat Gear Potion of cure light wounds, Acid, Alchemist's fire; Other Gear Studded leather armor, Buckler, Dagger, Longsword, Sling, Sling bullets (10), Backpack (8 @ 14 lbs), Bandolier (2 @ 2 lbs), Bedroll, Belt pouch (1 @ 0.5 lbs), Flint and steel, Spell component pouch, Torch (2), Trail rations (3), Waterskin, 10 GP, 7 SP, 8 CP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Acid - 0/1
Alchemist's fire - 0/1
Bardic Performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day) - 0/6
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of cure light wounds - 0/1
Sling bullets - 0/10
Torch - 0/2
Trail rations - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (1 targets) (DC 12) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Focused Mind +2 to Concentration checks
Lingering Performance Bardic Performances last 2 rds after you stop concentrating.
I would add a whip, a sap and a light mace to your weapons, and replace the dagger with a cold iron dagger. The mace is for things with DR/bludgeoning, the whip is if you get a chance to try a disarm or trip at range, the cold iron dagger is for fey, and the sap is for when you want to capture someone without killing them. You've got enough strength that the additional weapons won't weigh you down. I would recommend darkleaf cloth leather lamellar when you can afford it.
If you're open to a fighter dip, after you have 3 XP but before you play at 2nd level, take advantage of the rework rules and change your guy into a Fighter 1/Bard 1 where the fighter level came first so your HP will be 2 greater, and you can retroactively take power attack and weapon focus at your first level, then get arcane strike back at level 3. Power attack will add more damage than arcane strike and doesn't require an action. I know it's a bit cheesy but it's entirely legal and gives you a much more survivable character, plus you can use mithril medium armor when you can afford it.
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I can tell you from experience that a bard with a Con14. Dose not make a good front line fighter. You can do a good job as a secondary melee but you will not have enough HP to be on the front lines as the main fighter. Unless you like a never ending strings of close calls. I would take improved initiative over arcane strike at level 1. The most important thing you can do most of the time is get inspire courage up before the other combat character take there turn.
I think you might want to consider a Dex-based build instead. With stats like 13/17/14/12/8/14, you'll have all the benefits of higher Dex (plus a bit higher Con), at the cost of a couple of points of damage. You can pick up Weapon Finesse instead of Arcane Strike (to use a rapier), then Power Attack at level 3, and Arcane Strike at level 5 (once the bonus damage is more significant). Eventually you can get the Agile and Keen enchantments on your rapier.
@ Jiggy-
1. I just re-read Arcane Duelist and it would appear the only thing i really lose is Bardic Knowledge so not really that bad. I thought i would lose out on Versatile Performance for some reason.
2. It's definitely not iconic, Rapier would be, but it's all in how you flavor the act of the duel. Besides it is a smidge cheaper and a slight damage bump, crits aside.
@Paladin-
1. I like the whip idea but i'm a tad iffy giving up that tiny bump to AC from the buckler. The other items may need to wait for me to get some GP/PP, but i'll look into them.
2. That was my initial plan but was un-sure if i wanted to "water the build down" though that one level bump will add a bit for sure.
I can tell you from experience that a bard with a Con14. Dose not make a good front line fighter.
My front-line straight Bard did just fine for thirteen levels of PFS, and he started Con 14. I'm finding myself recalling the comments at the PaizoCon 2011 Grand Melee, when Gerard was critting demons left and right and full-attacking dragons. "This is the Bard?!?" I remember hearing.
Just thought I'd throw that out there, from experience. The only thing I did differently than the OP was use a shield and skip Lingering Performance and start with Con 14/Wis 7.
Also noteworthy: Elven Chainmail is great for this sort of build. Also make sure to take heroism and mirror image.
Also also noteworthy: Don't multiclass early. You want Bard7 for haste and Inspire Courage as a move action ASAP.
-Matt
So how about a DEX based Arcane Duelist w/ Rapier and whip?
Human
H- Weapon Finesse
1- Improved Initiative
B- Arcane Strike
(Total Rebuilds aside since that would take some reworking). I'll work on that and repost when i get the chance. Keep the ideas coming. I've never played a Bard but they seem like they could be really fun and versatile.
1. I just re-read Arcane Duelist and it would appear the only thing i really lose is Bardic Knowledge so not really that bad. I thought i would lose out on Versatile Performance for some reason.
Look again. You do lose Versatile Performance in exchange for bonus feats.
So how about a DEX based Arcane Duelist w/ Rapier and whip?
The problem there is multi-fold:
-Your damage is terrible until you pick up Agile, which doesn't happen until about 5th or 6th and costs a good chunk of change.-Even then, your damage is still sub-par because you're foregoing two-handing for 1.5xStrength and 3:1 Power Attack. Once you've got yourself wearing Elven Chainmail, heroism running, and mirror image online, two-handing becomes a great option.
Also, IMO, Arcane Duelist a bit of a trap option. The archetype sacrifices what Bards are good at (Bardic Knowledge, Versatile Performance, etc) and morphs the class into a 3/4 BAB, d8 HD melee fighter. You give up so much of what makes you a Bard that at that point, you're better off just going Ranger or Magus.
The strength of the fighting Bard is versatility, being able to have a bunch of skills yet be able to be pretty good in melee. The Arcane Duelist drops the skill advantage, yet doesn't improve melee ability enough to make up for the loss of versatility.
In other words, the build you posted is actually pretty good.
If you want to go the Dex route, Dawnflower Dervish is where it's at, not Arcane Duelist.
-Matt
What books do you have?
CRB, Inner Sea World guide + primer, ARG, APG, UM, UC, Ult. Camp., PFS Primer, Seekers of secrets, Faiths and Philosophies, Champions Of Purity, Faiths of purity, PF Companion-Andoran, Taldor, Quadira, Osirion and Varisia, Humans and Elves of Golarion and i should have my Ultimate equipment by the end of the week.
A mix of PDFs and Books. I have much more on Hero Lab but i keep those unchecked from the character generation because i don't want an illegal build.(I hope no mistakes get through).
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Then I'd highly recommend a dual-talent human if you didn't want to go the Finesse route. For instance, you could have stats like so:
STR 17
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 08
CHA 14
You lose your bonus feat, but don't have to spend one on Weapon Finesse. First feat could be Improved Initiative, for instance.
For traits, I highly recommend Armor Expert. Eventually, get yourself a mithral breastplate. It counts as light armor, so you can cast in it just fine. Being nonproficient means taking its ACP on your attack rolls, but with Armor Expert your ACP on a mithral breastplate will be zero. ;)
Then I'd highly recommend a dual-talent human if you didn't want to go the Finesse route.
It's not necessary. Elven Chainmail counts as light armor for purposes of proficiency and provides just as much AC as a mithral breastplate. Mirror Image starting at 4th is a big virtual AC bump as well, meaning that you really don't have to drop a feat and a skill point per level on +2 Dex. Also, ACP isn't so much of an issue if he chooses Dance as his 6th-level Versatile Performance and wears a circlet of persuasion.
-Matt has been here before.
I don't understand what the armor choice has to do with being a dual-talent human.
Elven Chainmail caps at +4 Dex, is more affordable than a mithral breastplate, and doesn't require any jiggering to get over the ACP issue. Also, your dual-talent recommendation is yielding +2 Dex, which really isn't necessary when Elven Chainmail is accessible and mirror image shows up at 4th. Plus, Dual Talent gives up skill points, which are important for the Bard's strengths. And on top of that, the feat slot is important for getting Arcane Strike, Power Attack, and other things a fighting Bard wants online in the early levels.
It's not like the Bard is stuck with chain shirt proficiency. Due to Elven Chainmail, the extra Dex from Dual Talent isn't really needed, and Dual Talent just gives up too much.
-Matt
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Elven Chainmail caps at +4 Dex, is more affordable than a mithral breastplate, and doesn't require any jiggering to get over the ACP issue.
What are you talking about? Elven Chain is 5,150gp. A mithral breastplate is 4,200gp.
Also, your dual-talent recommendation is yielding +2 Dex, which really isn't necessary when Elven Chainmail is accessible
I don't understand this statement at all. I don't mean I disagree with it, I mean I don't understand it. Between two armors with the same armor bonus, why does one of them make +2 DEX unnecessary? I don't see how the armor and the DEX are even related.
and mirror image shows up at 4th.
Hey, DEX does more than keep you from getting hit; you also get better Initiative.
Plus, Dual Talent gives up skill points, which are important for the Bard's strengths.
Fair point, though if he's wanting to keep Versatile Performance this becomes far less of an issue.
OR, i could try not to die by being an Archer Bard. I'll get to look good while shooting things in the face. Playing the Bow is sorta like tuning up the trusty ole' whamola. :) I was hoping to avoid that route though.
Going this route,
1. what would you suggest for weapons aside from bow? I need some melee options incase.
2. Traits?
3. Stick with those spells or go more for Grease and Saving Finale/Timely inspiration?
Thanks for the help. I need to play around with all the various options you've all presented.
What are you talking about? Elven Chain is 5,150gp. A mithral breastplate is 4,200gp.
Oops. That's what I get for posting at work from memory.
That's enough for today. Point being: the build posted above is pretty solid. I made one work myself for thirteen levels of PFS. There has been a lot of powercreep since Gerard's career, but finesse builds, Dual Talent, and Arcane Duelist are not it (Dawnflower Dervish, though, there's powercreep there).
-Matt
@Mattastrophic - I definitely believe you that a STR-based, non-dual-talent human melee bard is workable. You're just not communicating the how's and why's very well, so the rest of us are left to guess. ;)
I'm sure you'll figure it out with a couple of doses of analytical thinking. It's not like the awesomeness of heroism combined with Inspire Courage +2, haste, Arcane Strike, and Power Attack is a concept which needs its own Guide or anything.
-Matt
I forgot that if you do the fighter-at-first-level rebuild, you won't be able to take lingering performance. Given that, you may need to take lingering performance at third level. Alternatively, you could just take fighter at second level which would give you power attack or weapon focus but not both. Now that I think about it, that might be your better option.
Do the Dervish of Dawn archetype. It is very selfish for bard song but it works very well and starts with Dex to damage at first level.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/archetypes/paizo---bard-a rchetypes/dawnflower-dervish
It is from inner sea Magic book.
Mithril Kikko armor has no ACP but one less point of Armor bonus.
For comparison:
S: 17 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 16 (20 pt angel-blooded aasimar)
S: 16 D: 16 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 14 (20 pt azata-blooded aasimar)
S: 16 D: 14 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 16 (20 pt demon-spawn tiefling)
S: 17 D: 16 C: 14 I: 10 W: 8 Ch: 14 (20 pt dual-talented human)Aasimar:
...Darkvision
...+5 cold/acid/electric resistances
...spell-like ability (1/day) (Alter Self or Glitterdust is nice)
...skill bonuses to Perform = Versatile Performance Gold (azata)Tiefling:
...Darkvision
...+4 Bluff bonus when telling a lie? fun!
...bite attack
...prehensile tail to swift action draw potions, scrolls, wands, etc.
...+1 natural armor and 5 fire resistanceThe tiefling bard might be your best bet. That "free" bite attack is boosted a lot via bardic performance, arcane strike, and other buffs.
Well Aasimar does have the most broken alternate favored class options.
"Choose one bardic performance; treat the bard as +1/2 level higher when determining the effects of that performance."So a 12th level bard functions as 18th level bard for say... Inspire Courage. This works really well for Dawnflower Dervish.
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I would consider the Savage Skald archetype as an Angelkin Aasimar if you want some up front.
S: 16 D: 14 C: 14 I: 12 W: 8 Ch: 16
Wield a rapier and a heavy steel shield. The improved critical range on the rapier helps to generate the Savage Skald song. The shield gives AC. Wear the Elven Chainmail or take Armor Expert for a Mithril Breastplate.
Feats: Lingering Performance, Power Attack, Arcane Strike
The character won't be a powerhouse, but you will have great versatility and you will be able to put out decent enough damage in addition to providing great buffs.
I would go all 12 levels in bard or consider a 1 to 2 level dip in Fighter.
I asked this ages ago and looked into it a bit myself. I like dervish dance and a mithral breastplate best. Sword of Mercy + Enforcer can let you spread out some debuffs. I felt like I got more out of the magus trying to do something similar though. Neither of those seem like they're what you want exactly, so I'm not sure how much that helps.
Well i think i'll either look to tweak the initial build and see how it goes for the first three xp or go down the ranged route and dex/cha.
I could read through Dervish Dancer and see about that but as far as Dervish of the Dawn that is in a book i don't own and was not looking to get right now so a no go for PFS. I was/am looking to stay human but tiefling was a possibility.
@MrSin- My initial thought was to try out making a Tiefling Magus( Nightcrawler type minus the teleports). I'm still trying to get a grip on the system so thought i would wait some time to delve into the Magus class.
@MrSin- My initial thought was to try out making a Tiefling Magus( Nightcrawler type minus the teleports). I'm still trying to get a grip on the system so thought i would wait some time to delve into the Magus class.
It took me forever to understand magus. Its three different mechanics that work together to work. Have to understand touch spells(and that they give a free attack), spell combat(cast a spell + full attack), and spell strike(attack with a touch attack through your weapon; does weapon's normal damage + spell).
Anyways, bard is probably easier to start out with. Lots of ways to handle them. In PFS I've always found its a little rough to go support because your guaranteed to have combat and never sure who you'll have.
@MrSin- My initial thought was to try out making a Tiefling Magus( Nightcrawler type minus the teleports). I'm still trying to get a grip on the system so thought i would wait some time to delve into the Magus class.It took me forever to understand magus. Its three different mechanics that work together to work. Have to understand touch spells(and that they give a free attack), spell combat(cast a spell + full attack), and spell strike(attack with a touch attack through your weapon; does weapon's normal damage + spell).
Anyways, bard is probably easier to start out with. Lots of ways to handle them. In PFS I've always found its a little rough to go support because your guaranteed to have combat and never sure who you'll have.
Magus wouldn't be so bad if it was a home game. Would give more time and leeway to learning the ins and outs of the class.
Bard was my fallback for arcane striker that wasn't some type of Fighter|Wizard hybrid or full caster. Bard also seems to fit the mold of PFS play, imho, pretty well. Can cover some useful areas and not be gimped while still allowing me to attempt to focus on a combat aspect. Bard gives me some skills, ways to buff/debuff and control. I'm really comfortable with others getting the spotlight, i just want to be able to help them shine. Oh and i don't want to be a gimp when it comes to combat.
Sorry, i'm just rambling now.
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OP, I strongly encourage you to read Bomanz's comment in this thread about the Reach Bard. Your proposed build perfectly fits that approach. Average damage will drasticaly exceed your proposed current approach, especially if you learn to maximize AoOs. You'll never be able to take as much punishment as a front line fighter, but you will probably inflict as much, or more, martial damage.
OP, I strongly encourage you to read Bomanz's comment in this thread about the Reach Bard. Your proposed build perfectly fits that approach. Average damage will drasticaly exceed your proposed current approach, especially if you learn to maximize AoOs. You'll never be able to take as much punishment as a front line fighter, but you will probably inflict as much, or more, martial damage.
Just read that. Seems really cool. I like the idea of reach/AoO/Trip type builds. I have a Lore Warden i built that works on this premise. I could try and fit it onto the Bard chassis.
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15,14,14,14,12,07 array....
STR+17 half-elf "reach-bard"
DEX:14
CON:14
INT:12
WIS:07
CHA+16
Traits: Berserker of the Society, Armor Expert
01 barb1 [urban],[Ancestral Arms:(EWP:Fauchard)], Power Attack
02 bard1
03 bard2 Pushing Assault
04 bard3 STR>18, ...(all bard)
At 3rd level, base raging will save is +3, +5 if vs enchantment.
Tactics: Sing & then smash face. Knock things away from you through your allies' threatened zones (this is especially effective when a monster has five-footed around an ally to reach you, the presumed squishy). Take advantage of meta-gaming GMs who don't bother casting will-save magic on your "bard" with intelligent BBEGs.
Rage "normally" at low level; controlled rage (DEX) higher up (when the consequences of losing too many HP going unconscious become untenable).
So i decided to go the Reach Bard route. Any suggestions as far as Feats/Traits/Stat array.
Mat
Male Human (Taldan) Bard 1
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +7; Senses Perception +3
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +1
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee Cestus +2 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Dagger +2 (1d4+3/19-20/x2) and
. . Longspear +2 (1d8+4/x3) and
. . Unarmed strike +2 (1d3+3/x2)
Ranged Sling +3 (1d4+3/x2)
Special Attacks bardic performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day, bardic performance: countersong, bardic performance: distraction, bardic performance: fascinate (1 targets) (dc 12), bardic performance: inspire courage +1
Bard Spells Known (CL 1):
1 (2/day) Saving Finale (DC 13), Timely Inspiration (DC 13)
0 (at will) Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound (DC 12), Prestidigitation (DC 12)
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Statistics
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Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 15
Base Atk +0; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Arcane Strike, Improved Initiative
Traits Armor Expert, Magical Knack (Bard)
Skills Acrobatics +7, Bluff +6, Diplomacy +6, Knowledge (arcana) +2, Knowledge (history) +2, Knowledge (local) +6, Linguistics +5, Perception +3, Perform (dance) +6, Perform (oratory) +6
Languages Common, Hallit, Skald
SQ bardic knowledge
Combat Gear Potion of cure light wounds, Acid, Alchemist's fire; Other Gear Studded leather armor, Cestus, Dagger, Longspear, Sling, Sling bullets (10), Backpack (8 @ 14 lbs), Bandolier (4 @ 3 lbs), Bedroll, Belt pouch (11 @ 5.7 lbs), Flint and steel, Spell component pouch, Torch (2), Trail rations (3), Waterskin, 20 GP, 7 SP, 8 CP
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TRACKED RESOURCES
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Acid - 0/1
Alchemist's fire - 0/1
Bardic Performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day) - 0/6
Dagger - 0/1
Potion of cure light wounds - 0/1
Sling bullets - 0/10
Torch - 0/2
Trail rations - 0/3
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Strike As a swift action, add +1 damage, +1 per 5 caster levels and your weapons are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Armor Expert -1 Armor check penalty.
Bardic Knowledge +1 (Ex) Add +1 to all knowledge skill checks.
Bardic Performance (standard action) (6 rounds/day) Your performances can create magical effects.
Bardic Performance: Countersong (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sound.
Bardic Performance: Distraction (Su) Counter magical effects that depend on sight.
Bardic Performance: Fascinate (1 targets) (DC 12) (Su) One or more creatures becomes fascinated with you.
Bardic Performance: Inspire Courage +1 (Su) Morale bonus on some saving throws, attack and damage rolls.
Magical Knack (Bard) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
I could change that stats so i have no dump. Drop Charisma to 14 and raise Wisdom up to 10. I'm thinking at level 4 to raise my charisma up to 16 though.
Magical Knack is there since i plan to dip one or possibly two levels of Fighter @2nd. Gives me a +1 BAB/ +2 Fort/ Bonus Feat(power attack or combat reflexes) and Armor Prof. May go into a second level of fighter for another bonus feat(whatever i didn't grab at 2nd PA or CR) plus my third level feat. Weapon Focus(Martial Weapon) or Lingering Performance. I know this deviates from being a "Bard" but it does add some versatility to my repertoire.
Other than all that i could still just go for a DEX/CHA archer Bard. I'm not totally against this idea just after the Reach Bard was brought up i just couldn't get the image of Matrim Cauthon out of my head.
Thoughts?