I wonder how many comments i'd get if I had a thread called "Rogues"
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It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.I have adequately demonstrated that this is not the case, and the monk has many more issues than you choose to acknowledge. That's your prerogative to hold your own opinion, but I can back mine with facts and figures as well as anecdotes from playing monks.You have only highlighted DPR problems.
Monks essential DPR problems
1. Lower to-hit
2. Extremely bad move & attack
3. Lack of viable long range tacticsIssues that contribute to the above but are not in of themselves problems
1. Monks are MAD
2. Monks are a 3/4 BAB class who is expected to be the party BSF, which they can't really do until higher levels (at which point Monk > fighter and ranger, being basically immune to CC makes for effectively higher DPR)
3. For some reason monks are proficient in crossbows instead of bows, and are not just proficient in monk weaponsOther Monk problems
1. How SR worksThings that appear to be problems with the class, but aren't because they don't hurt the class in anyway.
1. Esoteric or weak class features. These are purely additive and do not somehow make the class weaker. For example Slow fall does not make a monk weaker.
Marthkus, Dabbler has covered non-DPR issues with the monk in great detail many times over, and has been doing so since before you ever began posting on these boards. He has even pointed at a few in this very thread, but you just ignored them. If you're going to argue with him, who has done more for this community in figuring out the ins and outs of monks than most ever will, at least have the respect to not ignore him when arguing with him.
Thanks.
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I wonder how many comments i'd get if I had a thread called "Rogues"So, so many. I feel like we already had one of those though ...
He'd get even more if he title it 'Rouges'. Just saying...
Ooohhh.... Title it "Does this violate the alignment of my rouge/paladin/monk character?"
Design a multiclass rouge/paladin/monk and explain the alignment issue and how when the guy isn't smiting, he's underpowered, but when he is smiting, he's OP.
Also, complain about how your character is being overshadowed by the Wizard and the Druid in the party.
I am aware it's rogue, not rouge, I spelt it that way for maximum hatred.
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It's the monks only real problem (that and the SR thing...) in relation to other martials.I have adequately demonstrated that this is not the case, and the monk has many more issues than you choose to acknowledge. That's your prerogative to hold your own opinion, but I can back mine with facts and figures as well as anecdotes from playing monks.You have only highlighted DPR problems.
Monks essential DPR problems
1. Lower to-hit
2. Extremely bad move & attack
3. Lack of viable long range tacticsIssues that contribute to the above but are not in of themselves problems
1. Monks are MAD
2. Monks are a 3/4 BAB class who is expected to be the party BSF, which they can't really do until higher levels (at which point Monk > fighter and ranger, being basically immune to CC makes for effectively higher DPR)
3. For some reason monks are proficient in crossbows instead of bows, and are not just proficient in monk weaponsOther Monk problems
1. How SR worksThings that appear to be problems with the class, but aren't because they don't hurt the class in anyway.
1. Esoteric or weak class features. These are purely additive and do not somehow make the class weaker. For example Slow fall does not make a monk weaker.Marthkus, Dabbler has covered non-DPR issues with the monk in great detail many times over, and has been doing so since before you ever began posting on these boards. He has even pointed at a few in this very thread, but you just ignored them. If you're going to argue with him, who has done more for this community in figuring out the ins and outs of monks than most ever will, at least have the respect to not ignore him when arguing with him.
Thanks.
Agree'd with the above. Dabbler is the 'King' of the Monk crowd, in my opinion, and the only person who rivals him, his Master Arminas. Those two track down and post in almost every single Monk thread out there. They will give you advice on how to build Monks in the best way possible, and each has submitted multiple different house rules to fix the Monk. They have spent many man hours talking about the strengths and weaknesses of Monks and probably know the class better than the own designers do.
They're like the Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking of Monks.
No-one does CMB well at higher levels.Fighters do not have CMB/CMD problems at hihger levels. Plain inmunities are the real problems.
Yeah, and to add to it that Fighters aren't the only ones that do combat maneuvers at high levels, I'd like to point out that Paladins, Rangers, and Barbarians likewise do combat maneuvers at high levels (all three of those classes, like fighters, have class features that at to combat maneuvers such as their spells, favored enemy, smite, rage, rage powers, etc).
Even clerics aren't bad at combat maneuvers at high levels.
Which again, means that "No-one does CMB well" at high levels seems a little suspect.
I'm not going to critique your guy's dabbler worship because there is no need to tear down those claims when he himself has never made them.
Also I've seen people vastly better at monks than any of the people you are talking about (Lormyr for one, even dabbler should admit that).
Personally I feel most classes fall apart with anything under a 20 point buy. Monks just exceptionally stick out because they lose far more with those 5 points.
No-one does CMB well at higher levels.Fighters do not have CMB/CMD problems at hihger levels. Plain inmunities are the real problems.Yeah, and to add to it that Fighters aren't the only ones that do combat maneuvers at high levels, I'd like to point out that Paladins, Rangers, and Barbarians likewise do combat maneuvers at high levels (all three of those classes, like fighters, have class features that at to combat maneuvers such as their spells, favored enemy, smite, rage, rage powers, etc).
Even clerics aren't bad at combat maneuvers at high levels.
Which again, means that "No-one does CMB well" at high levels seems a little suspect.
Have you looked at high level CMDs?
No-one is pulling off maneuvers without being completely spec-ed for it. Even then Tetori monk puts most of those builds to shame.
EDIT: Monks effortlessly have nigh untouchable CMDs. The wis+monk bonus makes even the feat Defensive Combat Training un-needed.
No-one does CMB well at higher levels.Fighters do not have CMB/CMD problems at hihger levels. Plain inmunities are the real problems.
Marth is probably looking at base CMB. Give a level 20 fighter with a +10 Str mod a check to trip a thanatonic titan and yeah, he's going to cry at his chances of hitting CMD 60. Remind said fighter he's carrying a +5 sword and his weapon training is at max with Duelist's Gloves, throw in a Heroism and the two feats he spent on the maneuver of his choice, suddenly his chances are looking much better.
I'm not going to critique your guy's dabbler worship because there is no need to tear down those claims when he himself has never made them.
How delightfully dismissive and insulting.
Personally I feel most classes fall apart with anything under a 20 point buy. Monks just exceptionally stick out because they lose far more with those 5 points.
15 pb is standard, and if you feel that most classes fall apart at less than 20, that's very telling. I'm going through Reign of Winter on 15 PB with the GM gearing up the encounters for our party and we have consistently curbstomped most of the encounters with our 15 PB characters, sans one PC death at the hands of a dragon with class levels getting a full-attack on our lightly armored medic.
Have you looked at high level CMDs?
No-one is pulling off maneuvers without being completely spec-ed for it. Even then Tetori monk puts most of those builds to shame.
Yes, yes I have. In fact, I broke down the average CMDs of the Bestiary I during a discussion about rogues.
But have you looked at high level martials? The CMD for a Solar is 47. That's effortless to overcome for a 20th level martial. Paladin? He's got about +35, then can buff for another +3. Add in haste and greater heroism for another +5, for a grand total of +43. The Paladin only fails on a roll of 4, or a roll of 2+ if he has only a single feat involved (such as Improved Disarm giving another +2). That's before counting any extra benefits, and doesn't include Smite Evil since the Solar is a good-guy (but add in Smite and we have an over-excess of CMB).
A Ranger with no feats invested in it will likely have a +40 to his CMB vs the Solar at that level. Toss in haste (+1 to attacks) and greater heroism (+4 to attacks), and he only fails on a 2. He doesn't even need the Improved feats to help him beyond avoiding an AoO.
A Barbarian with no feats invested in it will likely have a +39 to CMB, and then can activate a rage power to add +20 to his CMB. With haste and greater heroism, that's a total of +64, which is enough to laugh at the CR 25 Tarrasque's CMD of 66.
A Cleric emphasizing combat will likely have a +30, then another +6 from divine power, then another +4 from frightful aspect, for +40, and throw in haste and greater heroism and the cleric only fails on a 2 again. Again, assuming no feats have been invested. This is not counting any domain powers (such as the Strength domain giving you another +14 to your Strength for +7 more, or the War domain allowing you to benefit from the appropriate feat for the round), or alignment-specific spells.
CR 20 CMDs
Balor: 54, Ancient Gold dragon: 53, Pit Fiend: 53, Tarn Linnorm: 64
CR 19 CMDs
Ancient Red dragon: 52, Shoggoth: 51, Ancient Silver Dragon: 50
CR 20 CMDs
Balor: 54, Ancient Gold dragon: 53, Pit Fiend: 53, Tarn Linnorm: 64
CR 19 CMDs
Ancient Red dragon: 52, Shoggoth: 51, Ancient Silver Dragon: 50
Balor: Ranger succeeds on a 55% (10). 65% if he has enlarge person active. 75% if he has Improved X, and 85% if he has Greater X. Paladin laughs at the Balor because he can Smite for another +10 to his combat maneuvers (which he couldn't do vs the Solar), and if he has Adept Champion, that's another +10 on his CMB checks (so now he's a freaking Barbarian). On the subject of "freaking barbarians", he still laughs at the Tarrasque's 66, so he laughs at everything on your list as well. Since the combat cleric still wasn't tapped out, he still had breathing room ('cause a Strength cleric with an extra +7 on his CMBs from Strength brings him into laughing range for most of these).
Everything else on the list is either lower than the Balor or is the Linnorm, who is a major exception but still within the realm of combat maneuvering (you just might have to actually hit him with a debuff before you do so).
Humorously, most of these enemies demonstrate quite well the real issue with CMs at this level. It's not that the DCs are un-hittable, but instead that the vast majority of CMs are useless against them or provide no meaningful benefit.
Further still, I'd like to see a 20th level monk who's going to disarm the balor like any of the martials can. Tetori is a one-trick pony of epic proportions who does one combat maneuver well. The stats I posted in the previous post included no feats, and only minimal buffing.
This is a joke. Seriously. Why are we not all laughing about this?
I pointed that out earlier about things he was saying and got my post removed so apparently lying on the forums is cool but calling people out on it totally not okay.No-one does CMB well at higher levels.this just isnt true.
i keep reading it, but it isnt true.
The same way harassment is okay, but sarcasm is teh devils. :P
The same way harassment is okay, but sarcasm is teh devils. :PI pointed that out earlier about things he was saying and got my post removed so apparently lying on the forums is cool but calling people out on it totally not okay.No-one does CMB well at higher levels.this just isnt true.
i keep reading it, but it isnt true.
The things that fall under "Don't be a jerk" are what under what your idea of "Jerk" are... If that makes sense.
The things that fall under "Don't be a jerk" are what under what your idea of "Jerk" are... If that makes sense.The same way harassment is okay, but sarcasm is teh devils. :PI pointed that out earlier about things he was saying and got my post removed so apparently lying on the forums is cool but calling people out on it totally not okay.No-one does CMB well at higher levels.this just isnt true.
i keep reading it, but it isnt true.
Well, I've been harassed on this board. Right down to another poster following me from other forum threads to any thread I was also talking in to stir trouble about disagreements in the other thread; constantly saying I said things I've never said; intentionally misquoting me to make me sound like a bad person; and even tracking down my personal information and posting it on the Paizo boards in an attempt to discredit me as a forum participant because of my gender; and that didn't result in any sort of punishment I know of, ever. Just some scrubbed threads.
Yet a friend of mine was banned for some days for being mildly sarcastic to Sean K. Reynolds in a thread where Sean K. Reynolds had already been sarcastic to many other posters in the thread, in the way Sean K. Reynolds is so dismissively sarcastic.
Golarion is upside down, I tell you.
I have opinions on all of those but its probably not healthy to discuss them on the monk thread. (been really hard to keep my inside thoughts inside... >.>)
Speaking of CMB, it has quiet a few problems. A lot of those problems can also hurt the monk. Similar to how teamwork feats aren't the best, and they affect the hunter and Cavalier classes.
I have opinions on all of those but its probably not healthy to discuss them on the monk thread.
Speaking of CMB, it has quiet a few problems. A lot of those problems can also hurt the monk. Similar to how teamwork feats aren't the best, and they affect the hunter and Cavalier classes.
The teamwork feats would be better as class features if they gave everyone on their team the benefits of said feats for free.
Some of the teamwork feats are also really strong in the hands of NPC mobs.
That said, teamwork feats tend to blow really bad. :(
And I agree that monks have issues with combat maneuvers and such. It's one of the reasons I cheer inwardly every time I see one of our psychic monks rocking faces, because it feels like all lies have become truths. :P
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Monks are fun.About as fun as most other martials. "I full attack!" So tactical and amazing and full of flavor and options!
People claim that they're ridiculously MAD, when all they really need is STR, WIS, and CON. Or just WIS if you get a Guided AoMF.Well... and Dex. Intellect might be useful, 13 at least if you want non bonus feat combat maneuvers. Agile or Guided can help reduce it.
[sarc]Its not that they're MAD, its that they need several stats to be good! I don't know why everyone thinks they're so MAD.[/sarc]
If a fighter or Barbarian loses their weapon to a Rust Monster, they're doneAlternative way to see it, the fighter is brought down closer to the monks level in DPR, and the barbarian picks up the club and mostly lost the enhance bonus but still hits harder than the monk. Or they had a backup weapon. or a few... But don't worry, in this situational moment they might be a little better because everyone else sucked! Except you know... they aren't actually better...
Situational things are hard to measure. One of the big things is that your being good in a moment that sucks for everyone else may not actually be a big deal, and doesn't actually make you better n that particular moment.
You could also argue that the AoMF is too expensive, which is also fair, but I've always felt the extra cost was to balance the Monk not having to spend that gold on armor.Monks do spend money on armor. They just spend it on a different kind of armor. TWF is pretty overpriced imo, especially for something with little to no actual reward.
Pardon the snark if you would. Probably overdid it.
I can only speak for what I've seen at tables I've played at. Most players I've seen avoid Bracers of Armor because, frankly, they're a crappy deal. Usually monks and casters carry a couple potions of Mage Armor, and if there's time for buffing someone can cast shield on the monk. Now everyone plays a Quinggong Monk archetype, which everyone should, just to swap Wholeness of Body. and Slow Fall.
So let's assume a 4th level Monk (the level he could swap Slow Fall for Barkskin) S/he'd drink the potion for +4 AC, someone casts Shield for another +4, He might have a decent WIS score of 14-15, so that's +2, an additional +2 from Barkskin, and finally, +1 Monk AC Bonus.
23 AC at 4th level is pretty nice IMO. These are ideal conditions though, sometimes that Shield spell never gets cast, still, a monk getting to 19 on their own isn't terrible.
As for the backup weapon.. again I can only speak for what I've seen at tables I've played at. And I've never seen anyone pack a backup club. I've rarely seen slashing weapons made of different materials, (silver, cold iron) but never a club.
Edit: Whoops. Dabbler made the club argument, not you. I'll leave it in anyway.
Shield is a Personal spell. You can't make potions of it or cast it on other people.
Agree'd with the above. Dabbler is the 'King' of the Monk crowd, in my opinion, and the only person who rivals him, his Master Arminas. Those two track down and post in almost every single Monk thread out there. They will give you advice on how to build Monks in the best way possible, and each has submitted multiple different house rules to fix the Monk. They have spent many man hours talking about the strengths and weaknesses of Monks and probably know the class better than the own designers do.
They're like the Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking of Monks.
Too kind, Tels. But thanks.
MA
Well, I've been harassed on this board. Right down to another poster following me from other forum threads to any thread I was also talking in to stir trouble about disagreements in the other thread; constantly saying I said things I've never said; intentionally misquoting me to make me sound like a bad person; and even tracking down my personal information and posting it on the Paizo boards in an attempt to discredit me as a forum participant because of my gender; and that didn't result in any sort of punishment I know of, ever. Just some scrubbed threads.
I've had that happen once. Aside from the personal information and gender bits. Thankfully it just stopped. I'm not too miffed about it though. I thought it was karma for things I did in the past on the forums.
ANYwho
Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.
The good for me:
Stealth, acrobatics, and move speed were huge boons for me. I wasn't as stealthy as the ninja, but I would scout ahead because I could get out of trouble when caught. Sometimes getting caught was even part of the plan
I noticed that my to-hit was higher at low levels do to charging bonus. It takes awhile before the 3/4 BAB makes up the +4 difference.
Once I got some bracers of armor my AC was on par with everyone else.
Having great saves was a huge boon.
I had tons of attacks per round
Always having my best weapon available was a huge boon for many situations
It's always nice to have a good perception.
The bad:
Even though I had plenty of attacks they would miss more frequently. Missing attacks sucks. Even if I hitted more attacks than others. Also my dice hate me and I would frequently roll 1-5 on the die 3 times in row at a level when no one let alone the monk is hitting on that.
I could still fail saves. Which is humiliating as a monk
Not only is stunning fist DC low, but my GM at the time rolled high. I had 1 stunning fist work in that game.
The Why didn't this come up:
My monk lacked a range option. I found this to be a crippling weakness for my rogue in a later campaign, but it just didn't come up when I played a monk. Perhaps it was the difference between APs (rogue) and Home-made campaigns (monk).
My decent sense motive was rarely used.
This has been hashed and rehashed many times, in many threads. THIS THREAD is a good example. Quoting myself from there . . .
The problem is, especially for people new to the game, the monk is counter-intuitive. What do I mean by that, you ask?
What do you think of when you say martial artist or monk? It is Bruce Lee, or David Carradine, or Chuck Norris, or Chow Yun-Fat, or Jackie Chan . . . it is for me. Slim and fast, with good muscle builds and well-toned bodies (but not body-builder levels of stacked and ripped muscles), who are (generally speaking) wise in the interaction of human beings and the ways of the world.
They are not Arnold Swartzenegger, Dwayne Johnson, or John Cena. But in Pathfinder, Strength matters. The best monks for combat concentrate on Strength and have scores that rival the Incredible Hulk, with only medicore Dexterity and Wisdom. They pick feats like the Dragon Style chain that enhance their ability to deal damage in combat, sacrificing their potential AC in order to deal damage at the back of the bus of the rest of the martial characters.
That isn't to say such a monk cannot be fun every once in a while, but it is completely the opposite of what most people think a monk is. When you get some new guy who looks at the monk, the first thing out of their mouth is . . . "Wisdom to AC? I get Wisdom to AC? And my ki is based on Wisdom? My Stunning Fist is based on Wisdom? It's like a caster, my Wisdom needs to be my highest stat!"
And then they frustrated and sad because the game doesn't work for the monk in that fashion. They have incredible ACs (but can still be hit), but they cannot do anything offensively to critters of equal or greater CR.
Then there is the matter of the two primary features of the monk: speed and mobility, versus flurry of blows. You cannot use one at the same time as the other. You are the fastest character class in the game, but to get your flurry you have to stand still, or take a 5' step. If you move, your attack bonus goes down.
The class does not just reward high system mastery, it makes it mandatory to understand how to stack feats, skills, various bonuses, to tweak the system to 11 in order to make the monk a viable, contributing member of an adventuring party. New guys don't have that . . . and they get turned off to the monk when it becomes obvious that their characters aren't contributing.
And then we get into all of the other class archetypes that strive to steal the monk's thunder: the fighter has two, the Brawler and the Unarmed Fighter. Both of which outfight the monk in his own specialty of unarmed combat.
There are other issues, plenty of them. Don't get me wrong, I love monks. The very first character I played in AD&D was a monk. But the monk class, as it currently stands in Pathfinder, needs to be rewritten.
That about sums it up. Of course, if you want the math on why the monk is considered weak, well, we can redo that as well.
MA
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Shield is a Personal spell. You can't make potions of it or cast it on other people.
My bad. I suppose a Monk could wear a Ring of Force Shield or something similar though, couldn't they?
I can only speak for what I've seen at tables I've played at. Most players I've seen avoid Bracers of Armor because, frankly, they're a crappy deal. Usually monks and casters carry a couple potions of Mage Armor, and if there's time for buffing someone can cast shield on the monk. Now everyone plays a Quinggong Monk archetype, which everyone should, just to swap Wholeness of Body. and Slow Fall.So let's assume a 4th level Monk (the level he could swap Slow Fall for Barkskin) S/he'd drink the potion for +4 AC, someone casts Shield for another +4, He might have a decent WIS score of 14-15, so that's +2, an additional +2 from Barkskin, and finally, +1 Monk AC Bonus.
23 AC at 4th level is pretty nice IMO. These are ideal conditions though, sometimes that Shield spell never gets cast, still, a monk getting to 19 on their own isn't terrible.
As for the backup weapon.. again I can only speak for what I've seen at tables I've played at. And I've never seen anyone pack a backup club. I've rarely seen slashing weapons made of different materials, (silver, cold iron) but never a club.
A crap deal yeah sure are but that being said you can't always travel with 10+ potions of Mage armor and a wand of shield on hand it's simply how consumables work.
Then again your sweet AC requires 1 move to grab the potion 1 standard to drink it, 1 more standard to cast the Barkskin buff and 1 standard to cast shield off the wand. But assuming you get caught by surprise you could very well have none of those up losing you 10AC in an ambush until you spend roughly 3 Rounds worth of actions to get buffs. That's definitely not good.
I totally agree with you, that's why I said they're ideal conditions. Our group usually buffs up ahead of time because of this.
Anyway, my monk fu is weak. There's no need to argue over it anymore.
Shield is a Personal spell. You can't make potions of it or cast it on other people.My bad. I suppose a Monk could wear a Ring of Force Shield or something similar though, couldn't they?
Sort of. Since its as a heavy shield, it removes their abilities they can't use while wielding a shield. On the other hand, since its a free action to activate/deactivate, they can activate and deactivate it whenever they need to. Likely they'd rather have their scaling unarmed AC+Wis.
And another from the same thread above:
The rogue works (or rather, it usually doesn't) because of the huge damage boost he receives from sneak attack. How many creatures have Improved Uncanny Dodge? I cannot think of one critter with that ability . . . so if a rogue can flank, he deals that extra damage on every single attack that hits. DR 20/x vs. 11d6 damage means a good amount gets through even if the rogue cannot bypass the DR. If he can bypass the DR, then he is dealing very large amounts of damage in every successful hit.
The monk doesn't. A skirmishing monk has the same attack bonus as the rogue (on average, before ability scores) and deals FAR less damage on a hit. In practice, the skirmishing monk will have a LOWER attack bonus than the rogue, who can dump Strength and rely on his sneak attack to cause damage, taking the Weapon Finesse feat and boosting that one ability score to the high heavens.
Take a monk in comparison with a bard. Both classes have the same BAB (medium) and the same hit die (d8). The bard has a lower Fort save than the monk, Reflex and Will are both high.
The bard has 6 levels of spell-casting (7 if you count cantrips) as a spontaneous caster and can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without Arcane Spell Failure. Several of his spells provide a stackable bonus on his attack and damage rolls (heroism gives a +2 morale bonus to attacks and damage for 10 minutes/level, greater heroism gives a +4 morale bonus to attacks and damage for 1 minute/level). Inspire courage, which a 20th level bard can maintain for at least 42 rounds a day (before Charisma), will add another +4 competence bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls.
Both classes have the same BAB (+15), so presuming that each has a +5 weapon and the feat Weapon Focus, each has a +21 attack bonus prior to ability scores. Except the bard will actually have a +29 attack thanks to greater heroism and inspire courage. AND, the bard is getting a +8 bonus on damage to every attack he makes thanks to that one spell (20 minute duration, mind you) and inspire courage.
Both are likely to have somewhere around the same Strength score after magic (I'd say about a 24 should be doable by 20th level, without taking away from Dex and Wis for the monk, or Dex and Cha for the bard, all other ability scores are a wash).
So that gives the monk a +28 attack for 2d10+12 damage (20/x2 critical threat), skirmishing. The bard (with a rapier) has a +36 attack for 1d6+20 damage (18-20/x2 critical threat), skirmishing.
Full attack, the monk gains another +3 attack bonus for his flurry, so he goes to +31/+31/+26/+26/+21/+21/+16 for 2d10+12 damage each. The bard holds steady at +36/+31/+26 for 1d6+20 damage each, if he fights with one weapon. The bard can afford to put the speed property on his rapier (which isn't limited to a +5 total bonus), and can make it keen as well (for a threat range of 15-20/x2). That will give the bard +36/+36/+31/+26 for 1d6+20 damage per hit, with six times the chance of scoring a critical hit.
The bard has more skills (6 ranks per level vs. 4 ranks per level), AND gains half his bard level to all knowledge skills (and use them untrained), can substitute his perform skills for a wide range of very useful skills, and can take 10 on any skill whether it is trained or not, treating it as a class skill for this purpose. Never mind, that the bard has at a minimum, another 29 spells per day after casting greater heroism (not including any bonus spells from a high Charisma score).
The bard can duplicate just about every monk ability through those spells: fast movement . . . expeditious retreat! Slow fall . . . feather fall! Wholeness of body . . . cure light wounds, or cure moderate wounds, or cure serious wounds, or cure critical wounds! Diamond body . . . delay poison or neutralize poison! Tongue of the Sun and Moon . . . tongues, speak with animals, and comprehend language! Abundant step . . . dimension door! Purity of body . . . heroe's feast!
Yeah, the monk can be outfought and outplayed by a bard! Who can do everything he does (a ring of evasion will even give him that ability).
And that bard will most likely have a higher AC, as well, or least an AC on par with the monk. Especially if he uses a light shield instead of two weapon fighting. Celestial armor gives +9, Dex can give up to another +8, +5 deflection, +5 natural armor, +1 Dodge, and you are looking at AC 38. Add a +5 light shield and AC 44.
MA
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Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.
Sure. Despite the fact I'm not a fan of the PF monk (or the 3.5 monk) for mechanical reasons, I love the idea of monks and I've many friends who enjoy playing monks for various reasons.
In fact, that's the reason I wrote the Psychic Monk (v1.0.3). It initially began as a very simple homebrew as an answer to a friend of mine's love of monks. See, he loved monks and insisted on playing them. I wanted him to be happy, but due to the issues that we keep coming back to with the monk, there was difficulty, especially if he didn't roll stellar stats (we have since become full on point buy converts, rather than dealing with fickle dice gods).
Some great experiences that I can recount seem to frequently include dragons. For some reason, the psychic monk vs dragons seems to be where I remember their glory the most. The first was during one of the initial playtest runs when my friend's monk (still in the wee stages where it was basically a 3.5 monk + psionics) managed to intercept and grapple a white dragon down and using grip of iron managed to keep him from running around, while being defensive enough to not get ruined by his full-attack, but still having enough tricks to actually do something besides grappling when it wasn't useful.
My brother played one flavored kind of like the assassin's from Assassin's Creed, where he ran around in a set of robes with hidden weapons and was big on acrobatics. He was an armor-less tank running through one of 5th level modules I bought from Paizo a while back. In the module the party was attacked by a white dragon spamming cold breath during a flyby attack before vanishing into the mists and such. In that adventure, my brother used concealing amorpha + Stealth skill to hide while one of the PCs pretended to have died from the breath weapon and was lying in the snow. When the dragon swooped down to seize its dead prey (assuming the other had ran for his life) my brother's monk leaped at the dragon and began meleeing with it (he was a good tank) and slashing at it with his sword and unarmed strikes. At which point the "dead" PC jumped up and set to taking the dragon down with him. They didn't kill the dragon but it was sufficiently epic enough to have driven it off. He also got to enjoy the awesomeness of Evasion when the dragon tried to breath-nuke him.
In another game a friend of mine and I made a pair of monks inspired by Ryu and Ken from Street Fighter, with our mid level abilities including things like the ability to throw lightning or fire by expending energy. It was fun, and we were having a blast.
I also had a lot of fun as a GM with a vampire monk "assassin" that I used in a really big encounter towards the end of one of the campaign arcs in my current game that I'm running online. She was really scary and was a fun boss for the PCs, but they still managed to take her apart (the party's goblin barbarian named Fleshbiter basically sumo-tackled her and pinned her to the ground with his teeth, and the Paladin came up and was like "S'up, you ever heard of a smite?", and then demonstrated it, so she turned into a swarm of bats but then got taken out by an alchemist fire). Later when they met back up with her (no longer in the heat of combat) she groaned about how embarrassing her defeat was (especially that damned little goblin who was gobbling arrows down like candy) and how she had no idea the Templar were so strong (the Paladin was a member of an order in my campaign setting). She was still a fun NPC though. She had a lot of mobility and could charge and enter a flurry in the same turn when she was burning power on it, she was also pretty tanky (though it's hard to be that tanky when you're pinned on the ground and a smiting Paladin is chiseling his logo in your forehead :P).
No-one does CMB well at higher levels. Monks get maneuver training anyways, so they basically have full BAB for maneuvers.
True, but while monks get effectively "full BAB" (well, actually full BAB-2) the other combat classes get "Full BAB + X" where X is their attack boost, be it rage, weapon training, smite, or favoured enemy. On top of that being less MAD they can afford the 13 Int to get not just the Improved maneuver but also the Greater maneuver. So compared to the monk they have X+2 on top, making their maneuvers better.
The monk isn't good at maneuvers, he just sucks less with maneuvers.
I'll add that the Tettori does work well, but he's something of a one-trick pony. Monk CMD is always good, but actually isn't so outstanding it's untouchable, or beyond the reach of another combat class.
If maneuvers actually scaled well into high levels this would allow the monk to have a pretty good move and attack option.
...and if they had the same kind of advantage other classes had, they'd be as good at them as those classes.
The problem with maneuvers is not that they scale badly, but that some creatures are just out-and-out immune to what you want to do and you have to invest so much into making them scale, it's often not worth it. This is especially true for the monk, unfortunately: he does maneuvers WORSE than the other combat classes, save for a few archetypes.
Now if you removed the minus two to-hit from the monk flurry and gave them bow proficiency. That would eliminate most of their "problems"
It would be a good start, but far from a complete fix. They'd still be points down as +2 to hit is almost entry-level for the other combat classes.
MAD is a non-issue. Every monk I build is 1 point behind in strength compared to a barbar or fighter. Monks do-not need to be hitting with the same force and accuracy of a fighter, but a +5-9 difference is a little ridiculous.
Let me show you the math again:
-1 for MAD (which you agree too)-2 for flurry (up to -5 without it) (which you also agree with)
-1 for lower enhancement (AoMF lags by around this much for most levels, and that's without assuming properties)
-1 to -5 for 'X' factor to hit (it varies with the combat class, but they all get an accuracy boost and most get it from 1st level)
Added up that puts the monk at around -5 to hit minimum through most of a twenty level progression, and up to -11 to hit in worst case scenarios. Individual cases will vary, but we are looking at an average of the other combat classes over 20 levels.
They're like the Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking of Monks.
I wouldn't go that far, Tels, my knowledge of the game is not as encyclopaedic as some and sometimes I learn new things in these discussions. But yes, I have been in these discussions from an early stage, I have made a lot of suggestions, and I have looked very closely at just why monks don't ever seem to cut the mustard in actual game-play when the stops get pulled out.
And yes, Lormyr did build some damned awesome monks! However, he had to plumb the depths of the UEG and bend the test parameters like a pretzel to do it, and while that kind of monk might actually be possible in a few games, it's not going to happen often and is beyond the skill of the vast majority of players even when it is possible. Finally, someone with the same level of expertise in the system could probably build another combat class that could equal or better Lormyr's monk.
To be fair, I regard 20 point buy as standard and it's what I usually run. As it's PFS standard, it's a good place to start. However just the existence of 15 PB means that MAD has to be addressed for the monk.
On the subject of saves, I'll point out that you can do things about poor saves with both feats and equipment. Having a weak save is NOT a death sentence; not being able to fight effectively when you are a combat class is a much more major issue.
I can only speak for what I've seen at tables I've played at. Most players I've seen avoid Bracers of Armor because, frankly, they're a crappy deal. Usually monks and casters carry a couple potions of Mage Armor, and if there's time for buffing someone can cast shield on the monk. Now everyone plays a Quinggong Monk archetype, which everyone should, just to swap Wholeness of Body. and Slow Fall.
It's a tactic I have seen talked about on the boards, but it depends on the resources being available and the enemy never bothering with debuffs. A more sure way of doing it is dipping a level of empyral sorcerer and self-buffing, but again you are basically shoring up being a monk by not being a monk, and you should not have to do that with any class. Bracers start getting good once you can get +4 or better on them, anyway.
So let's assume a 4th level Monk (the level he could swap Slow Fall for Barkskin) S/he'd drink the potion for +4 AC, someone casts Shield for another +4, He might have a decent WIS score of 14-15, so that's +2, an additional +2 from Barkskin, and finally, +1 Monk AC Bonus.
23 AC at 4th level is pretty nice IMO. These are ideal conditions though, sometimes that Shield spell never gets cast, still, a monk getting to 19 on their own isn't terrible.
Shield is a personal spell, you cannot cast it on someone else. That leaves you with 19, when with 12 dex, plate armour, and a heavy shield a fighter or paladin could break 22 at 3rd level. It can't be dispelled and he doesn't rely on consumables or friendly casters for it.
That said, monks can have an awesome AC if they put their minds to it...but the major problem with them is that they cannot actually dish out hits and damage with it. If the monk focusses on damage, he often has a less than amazing AC.
As for the backup weapon.. again I can only speak for what I've seen at tables I've played at. And I've never seen anyone pack a backup club. I've rarely seen slashing weapons made of different materials, (silver, cold iron) but never a club.
In my experience a player only has to run into the situation of needing that back-up weapon once before it becomes a permanent feature of all their characters; certainly all of mine carry one, and usually have a weapon made of mithral or adamantine. Then again, a club is easy to fashion anywhere.
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You know that saying about how the artist is his own biggest critic?
Same applies to the Monk. Monk fans are the biggest critic of the class. :P
Dabbler, I'm a little fuzzy on some of the math you posted. Specifically, this bit:
-2 for flurry (up to -5 without it) (which you also agree with)
I thought monks got full BAB effectively because of Maneuver Training by level 3. If they're not flurrying, how does the -5 come about?
Dabbler, I'm a little fuzzy on some of the math you posted. Specifically, this bit:
-2 for flurry (up to -5 without it) (which you also agree with)I thought monks got full BAB effectively because of Maneuver Training by level 3. If they're not flurrying, how does the -5 come about?
The -5 comes about if they try anything else with their 3/4 BAB. Maneuver training only helps with CMB, but not with feat prereqs, scaling, or punching people in the face. They used to have 3/4 BAB when flurrying too, that was... less than amazing.
The -5 comes about if they try anything else with their 3/4 BAB. Maneuver training only helps with CMB, but not with feat prereqs, scaling, or punching people in the face. They used to have 3/4 BAB when flurrying too, that was... less than amazing.Dabbler, I'm a little fuzzy on some of the math you posted. Specifically, this bit:
-2 for flurry (up to -5 without it) (which you also agree with)I thought monks got full BAB effectively because of Maneuver Training by level 3. If they're not flurrying, how does the -5 come about?
Whoops. Forgot that this wasn't just about CMB anymore.
Whoops. Forgot that this wasn't just about CMB anymore.The -5 comes about if they try anything else with their 3/4 BAB. Maneuver training only helps with CMB, but not with feat prereqs, scaling, or punching people in the face. They used to have 3/4 BAB when flurrying too, that was... less than amazing.Dabbler, I'm a little fuzzy on some of the math you posted. Specifically, this bit:
-2 for flurry (up to -5 without it) (which you also agree with)I thought monks got full BAB effectively because of Maneuver Training by level 3. If they're not flurrying, how does the -5 come about?
Yes, my reply seems to have been eaten, so I'll reply again!
The monk's flurry is -2 to hit over the full BAB classes, and that can make a difference. The monk's 3/4 BAB is -1 to hit over the full BAB classes at first level and widens to -5 by 20th level.
And the -2 penalty applies to CMB as well, if using CMB as part of a flurry of blows - so CMB = full BAB only happens when you make a single attack.
Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.
Well that didn't last long. I tried Marthkus, I did. :P
Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.Well that didn't last long. I tried Marthkus, I did. :P
We once had a monk that the GM thought broke the campaign and was severely over geared with his belt of +2 strength... in 3.5 at level 4.
Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.Well that didn't last long. I tried Marthkus, I did. :P
I have some experiences, both good and bad!
3rd level, entering a necromancer's lair, we found ourselves set upon by a small horde of skeletons. The paladin was missing, leaving the magus (armed with a rapier), and the oracle (armed with a pair of chakrams), and my monk. Naturally, I had a field day, as I was still in the "sweet spot" of good AC combined with attacks that actually connected, bashing the bones to bits.
8th level, tap-dancing on the back of a giant lobster. The creature attacked us in the river on a boat, knocking everyone but my monk into the water and seizing them in it's claws. I attacked with stunning fist, and it failed it's save every time it had a grip on any of my friends.
9th level, using speed to lure a Grey Render out of a temple and into the desert, making sure it chased me, but didn't catch me, then accelerating out of view and hiding.
12th level, finding that tripping human-sized enemies several CR's below you is easy and fun!
14th level, at the end of the campaign discovering that a lucky draw of the Deck of Many Things left my character the new Queen of Korvosa.
The moments of awesome coincided with those situations my character was good in, combined with those moments I got good dice rolls. The moments of awful were not when the dice were bad...they happened pretty much every time the dice were not phenomenally in my favour...
4th level, nearly getting beaten up by a 3rd level warrior guard who saved against stunning fist when I could get it to connect at all.
5th level, being blinded, then realising that this left me unable to affect anything in the boss-fight.
7th level, trying to scout when someone has left symbols of insanity lying around.
8th level, discovering that the ranger that just joined the party just supplanted me as the party scout without even trying.
9th level, a fight with a giant worm I could not hit for love nor money. When I did, damage was pitiful.
9th level, a fight with an orc barbarian who's CMD, HP, and Fort save made pretty much immune to anything I could do to him, but his attacks could easily hit my supposedly good AC with ease.
10th level, discovering that being trapspringer without Trapfinding is basically done by springing the traps on oneself.
10th level, realising in the fight with the flying invisible devil that my sole contribution was going to be to provide flanking for the paladin.
11th level, realising in a ranged fight that my crossbow didn't cut it.
12th level, "cleverly" going for a grapple on the rider of a black dragon, only to find she was on our side anyway.
12th level, getting ganked by an assassin that kept catching me flat-footed. Regularly. No matter what precautions I took.
12th level, working out when the horned devil rolled a '1' on it's save that this was the first thing I had stunned since that tap-dance on the giant lobster.
13th level, when after another boss-fight, I realised I had hit nothing and my sole contribution was tripping the dominated paladin one round before the ranger killed the BBEG.
14th level, at the end of the campaign, working out that my Diamond Soul hadn't stopped a single hostile spell.
Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.Well that didn't last long. I tried Marthkus, I did. :PI have some experiences, both good and bad!
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Wow, a net -9 awesome. :\
Hey, he said good AND bad. It's not my fault the bad outweighed the good.
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Does anyone want to talk about actual monk experiences? Good and bad.Well that didn't last long. I tried Marthkus, I did. :PI have some experiences, both good and bad!
Moments of Awesome (Curse of the Crimson Throne):3rd level, entering a necromancer's lair, we found ourselves set upon by a small horde of skeletons. The paladin was missing, leaving the magus (armed with a rapier), and the oracle (armed with a pair of chakrams), and my monk. Naturally, I had a field day, as I was still in the "sweet spot" of good AC combined with attacks that actually connected, bashing the bones to bits.8th level, tap-dancing on the back of a giant lobster. The creature attacked us in the river on a boat, knocking everyone but my monk into the water and seizing them in it's claws. I attacked with stunning fist, and it failed it's save every time it had a grip on any of my friends.
9th level, using speed to lure a Grey Render out of a temple and into the desert, making sure it chased me, but didn't catch me, then accelerating out of view and hiding.
12th level, finding that tripping human-sized enemies several CR's below you is easy and fun!
14th level, at the end of the campaign discovering that a lucky draw of the Deck of Many Things left my character the new Queen of Korvosa.
Moments of Awful (same game):
The moments of awesome coincided with those situations my character was good in, combined with those moments I got good dice rolls. The moments of awful were not when the dice were bad...they happened pretty much every time the dice were not phenomenally in my favour...4th level, nearly getting beaten up by a 3rd level warrior guard who saved against stunning fist when I could get it to connect at all.
5th level, being blinded, then realising that this left me unable to affect anything in the boss-fight.
7th level, trying to scout when someone has left symbols of insanity lying around.
8th level, discovering that the ranger that just joined the party just supplanted me as the party scout without even trying.
9th level, a fight with a giant worm I could not hit for love nor money. When I did, damage was pitiful.
9th level, a fight with an orc barbarian who's CMD, HP, and Fort save made pretty much immune to anything I could do to him, but his attacks could easily hit my supposedly good AC with ease.
10th level, discovering that being trapspringer without Trapfinding is basically done by springing the traps on oneself.
10th level, realising in the fight with the flying invisible devil that my sole contribution was going to be to provide flanking for the paladin.
11th level, realising in a ranged fight that my crossbow didn't cut it.
12th level, "cleverly" going for a grapple on the rider of a black dragon, only to find she was on our side anyway.
12th level, getting ganked by an assassin that kept catching me flat-footed. Regularly. No matter what precautions I took.
12th level, working out when the horned devil rolled a '1' on it's save that this was the first thing I had stunned since that tap-dance on the giant lobster.
13th level, when after another boss-fight, I realised I had hit nothing and my sole contribution was tripping the dominated paladin one round before the ranger killed the BBEG.
14th level, at the end of the campaign, working out that my Diamond Soul hadn't stopped a single hostile spell.
I am the GM of a (currently on hiatus) Curse of the Crimson Throne game. We had a Monk in the game until a certain point when the player decided he hated the Monk so much, he committed suicide at one point.
All the World's Meat (roughly 3rd level) the Monk did well in sneaking around and scouting, but when it came to the fight, things did not go in his favor. He ended up just being a flanker for the 'Dwarven Warrior' (new player portrayed himself as a generic warrior but was a Rogue). They thought he was a total bad ass because he rolled well on attacks and was doing phenomenal damage (I rolled sneak attack damage secretly for him).
Same scenario, the Monk ended up crawling down a sewer and fighting some reefclaws with the Dwarven Warrior. The Monk got his ass beat being a flanker for the warrior, who dominated in that fight.
Rikers alley, the Monk had picked up Improved grapple and attempted grappling the 'zombies' that were attacking. Yeah, not a good choice in retrospect when they figured out they were Vampire Spawn.
The Monk did (mostly) well during the Plague as he became immune to disease. Basically, he was the guy that went out and interacted with people, because there was no risk of him getting sick.
I ran some random encounters for the group in both the sewers of Korvosa and the Grey District so they could level up at the right places. In sewers I randomly generated an ooze, which meant the Monk was useless. In the Grey District, I tossed them up against some Mooks, but the Sorcerer stole the show as he wiped out nearly 30 enemies (mixture of advanced ghouls and advanced ghasts) with a single fireball. However, they went up against some skeletons in a mausoleum and the Monk did decently (compared to others, the whole party ended up retreating in fear of my custom skeletons I made in 5 minutes). However, the Ranger (favored enemy Undead) did phenomenally, damage wise, but took tons of damage.
In the Hospice, the Monk did ~OK in that he avoided a lot of the damage from the doctors, but did almost no damage in return. He did grapple some people though, it didn't really help all that much, except against Rolth, as the Monk managed to grapple him long enough for the Ranger to kill him. In the Boss fight he was nearly useless as Lady Andaisin was nothing to sneeze out (especially since I had to custom build her as my party was 8 players strong).
In Escape, the Monk was a Beast at Blood Pig, however, this wasn't a good thing. The party was trying to amuse the Emperor, but they were beating the snot out of the Blood Pig players. This ended up with him declaring them cheaters, and ordering their execution, so the whole "stadium" ended up charging the players. Fortunately, Laori was working with them and showed exactly what a powerful cleric of an evil god can do against a large number of mooks. Laori ended up with a kill count of something like 200 (negative energy channel in the middle of a mob, Flame Strike etc.)
The Labyrinth was kind of a let done for my party, as they ended up stumbling onto the one combination that let the Party find the Seneschal without encountering any enemy in the Labyrinth and they neutralized all the symbols. The only person they fought was when they rescued Vencarlo.
The Giant Reefclaw. Oh God, that was a hilarious fight there. The party hadn't healed up before they encountered the Reefclaw (as they thought they were done after escaping the labyrinth). However, the 'boat' across the water was on the other side (someone had moved it). The Monk decided to jump across, but got snatched out of the air by the Reefclaw. Reefclaw critted the hit, and then grabbed him, and the Reefclaw went first on initiative and opened a full attack with two more crits knocking the Monk unconscious. He was about to drop back into the water and swim away with his prize when Laori jumped up with a Harm spell and the Ranger killed the Reefclaw since he had 1 hp left.
Ever since then, anytime someone suggest jumping across any amount of water, we joke about the 'Giant Enemy Crag' hiding within.
In History, the Monk didn't get to do much other than flank in the Temple, or against any of the random encounters. Oh, his closest 'awesome' moment was in the Shoanti Test with the pillars. Instead of holding it up with his strength, the Party lifted it up, and then the Monk jumped up and balanced on top of it. During the fight with the Bullets, he stayed up and threw shuriken instead of hoping down.
Unfortunately, it was during the Flameford assault that the Monk had had enough of playing a Monk and 'committed suicide'. He just let himself die against the Red Mantis and came back as another player.
Through out this whole campaign, the Monk never once landed a successful stunning fist. The one time an enemy would have biffed his save against it (the Rakshasha in the snake temple before the Labyrinth rolled a natural 1), the Monk player forgot about the DR and realized he couldn't even hurt the damned thing (with 8 players, I just announce the DR of enemies so I don't have to constantly subtract it).
Yeah.... my Monk player didn't have even close to the 'awesome' you did Dabbler. It was just failure, after failure, after failure and he had enough. Came back as a Barbarian, and was a lot happier.
Let's see, my first Monk was in 3.5 and I only got to play him for one session before the game fell apart because the DM's heart just wasn't in it. All of the players were given notices of a mission to be accomplished, so we all made our own separate way to the mission location (we hadn't met each other yet). Along the way, my Monk overheard the sounds of battle nearby and crept up to see some of the other party members had met up and were being ambushed by Orcs. I played 'Ninja in the Trees' and ran around them in the bushes throwing shuriken. I rolled exceptionally well that day getting a total of 4 crits with my shuriken. Was pretty fun.
My current Monk is playing in Legacy of Fire. Of note, I'm playtesting my own house rules for the Monk in Legacy of Fire with the GM's and the other players' permission.
Ki Pool (Su) Gain a pool of supernatural energy equal to you Monk level plus your Wisdom modifier. Spend these points as a swift action to do amazing things.
- Spend 1 point to make an additional attack at your highest attack bonus when making a flurry of blows.
- Spend 1 point to add +20 to your acrobatics checks when jumping for 1 round.
- Spend 1 point to increase your move speed by +20 for one round.
- Spend 1 point to gain a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round.
- Spend 1 point to move half your movement; this movement can take place even during full-attack actions.
- Spend 1 point to add half your Monk level to your CMB and CMD for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom bonus.
Ki Strike (Su) Gain an enhancement bonus of +1 per 4 Monk levels to your attack rolls, but not damage rolls. This ability functions as long as the Monk as 1 Ki Point remaning.
- Spend 1 Ki point to over come DR and Hardness equal to your Monk level for a number of rounds equal to 3 plus 1 per two Monk levels. You overcome half as much DR if the DR has multiple types (like DR 10/piercing and good) or is typeless (DR 5/-).
Slow Fall (Ex) (Su) A Monk may use his surroundings to slow his falls. As long as a Monk can interact with something (walls, trees, vines etc.) the Monk may slow his fall. If a Monk isn't near any objects, he may spend 1 Ki Point as an immediate action to use his slow fall ability; spending a Ki Point makes Slow Fall a supernatural ability instead of Extraordinary. A Monk can slow fall 20 ft. at 4th level; at 6th level and every 2 levels thereafter, his distance slowed increase by 10 ft. until 20th level when a Monk can slow fall any distance.
Wholeness of Body (Su) The Monk may use his Ki to heal physical injuries. As a standard action, a Monk may spend 1 Ki Point to heal 2d8 plus his Monk level of damage on either himself or others. If the Monk spends 2 Ki Points, he may heal himself as a swift action instead. This ability can only be used to heal and cannot harm undead.
The original party make-up for Legacy changed tremendously compared to how we started. We took a brief hiatus, but during that time, 3 players moved away, and another 2 dropped out, leaving only 2 of the original party left. One of the new players picked Finding Haleen as a trait (same as my Monk) so we 're-wrote' our backstories to include the other. Shynt (my Monk's sister) is a fetchling Inquisitor, and adopted younger sister of both Haleen and Let (my Monk).
In the battlemarket, Shynt was being called all kind of names (as drunken men an one to do) and slapping her on the rear. My Monk was not happy. One of the guys tried to challenge Shynt to a 'match' in the Battlemarket and if she lost, he got to have her for the night, if he lost, she got to do what she wanted with him for the night (the guy thought he was the Gods' gift to ladies). Shynt accepted, but then said that "A gentlemen must ask permission of her brother first". So I ended up taking her place in the fight.
The guy decided that since no rules were agreed to, and Shynt had swapped her place for mine, he'd bring his two buddies up into the fight. I was fine with this.
Let ended up using Disarms and Trips to make them all look like fools, before beating all three into unconsciousness without ever taking a single hit from any of them. With such an impressive performance, Let ended up fighting several more times.
Next up was a Hobgoblin with a weapon (I forget what it was). Let took his weapon away and tossed it out, but someone then tossed him another weapon. So Let took that one away and threw it at the guy that tossed it in and impaled him with it (didn't kill him though). After that, there was no more interference as Let beat that guy up. He took some blows here, but he was all right. He drank a potion of cure Moderate after this fight, and continued on.
Next up was a group of 3 gnolls. This group was much more dangerous than the 3 thugs he'd fought before, and I had to fight smart here. He took a defensive stance, and readied an action to take a 5 foot step. The first Gnoll charged and tried to grapple but didn't have Improved Grapple. Let used his readied action to step out of the way, and then took his AoO to trip the Gnoll. GM had him stumble out of the ring onto a table full of unhappy hobgoblins.
The next two were more cautious and tried to get into a flanking position, but with Let's high Acrobatics, this never happened. He rolled around the arena, tripping them and using AoO to hit them as they stood up (or take away their weapons as needed).
He won this last fight, but it took significantly longer. Let's final opponent was an armed and armored Bugbear wielding two maces. Let decided he was gonna go for broke on this guy, and did a charging grapple at the start of the fight. Let then proceeded to Pin, and choke out the Bugbear.
Tired, and bruised, Let finally stepped down from the arena to get some healing. The patrons of the bar were now very wary of this deceptively dangerous man.
After the party cleared out Kelmarane, Let opened up a school of martial arts and had many students wanting to join after his display in the Battlemarket.
The men in the Kelmarane also quickly came to understand that "One does not touch Let's sister."
Shynt was less than pleased about this as men were not willing to engage in amorous activities with Let's baby sister. (Shynt's player thought it was hilarious though as it was Shynt's own actions that lead to this reputation).
I think I've rambled on long enough here.
Ouch. For those that say our monks "just weren't built right" I have the stats for mine at 7th, 10th, and 14th level. The problems which we most frequently had in the early part of the game where she should have shone were that we were restricted to whatever equipment we could find - there were no opportunities to buy any save a few potions and scrolls from the Temple of Pharasma. This hurt the monk most of all.
What made her work was the fact that I had her as the party trap-springer - the rest of the party were a paladin, a magus, and an oracle. Plenty of healing, but few buffs.
Female Human (Chelaxian) Monk 7
LG Medium Humanoid (Human)
Init +5; Senses Perception +14
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DEFENSE
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AC 24, touch 22, flat-footed 18. . (+1 armor, +5 Dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 61 (7d8+14)
Fort +7, Ref +11, Will +9
Defensive Abilities Evasion; Immune disease
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OFFENSE
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Spd 50 ft.
Melee Cold Iron Kama +10 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Sai +10 (1d4+2/20/x2) and
. . Siangham +10 (1d6+2/20/x2) and
. . Silver Kama +10 (1d6+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +10 (1d8+2/20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Crossbow, Light +11 (1d8/19-20/x2) and
. . Shuriken +10 (1d2+2/20/x2) and
. . Sling +10 (1d4+2/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +5/+5/+0, Ki Strike, Magic
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STATISTICS
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Str 15, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 16/18, Cha 14
Base Atk +5; CMB +12 (+14 Disarming+14 Grappling+14 Tripping); CMD 29 (31 vs. Disarm31 vs. Grapple31 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Expertise +/-2, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Snake Style, Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 17), Weapon Finesse
Traits Unhappy Childhood (Tortured), Vagabond Child (urban): Disable Device
Skills Acrobatics +15, Climb +11, Disable Device +18, Escape Artist +10, Heal +7, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (History) +6, Knowledge (Local) +4, Knowledge (Nature) +3, Knowledge (Religion) +6, Linguistics +3, Perception +14, Ride +9, Sense Motive +16, Sleight of Hand +6, Stealth +15, Survival +5, Swim +7
Languages Celestial, Common, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ AC Bonus +5, Fast Movement (+20'), High Jump (+7/+27 with Ki point) (Ex), Ki Defense (Su), Ki Pool (Su), Maneuver Training (Ex), Purity of Body (Ex), Slow Fall 30' (Ex), Still Mind (Ex), Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex), Unarmed Strike (1d8), Wholeness of Body (7 HP/use) (Su)
Combat Gear Bolts, Crossbow (34), Bullets, Sling (10), Cold Iron Kama, Masterwork Crossbow, Light, Sai, Shuriken (15), Siangham, Silver Kama, Sling; Other Gear Alchemist's Fire Flask (2), Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Backpack (14 @ 26.26 lbs), Bracers of Armor, +1, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +2, Healer's kit (10 uses), Holy Water Flask (2), Potion of Cure Light Wounds (2), Potion of Invisibility (2), Powder, Ring of Protection, +1, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Soap (per lb), Sunrod (2), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Torch, Waterskin
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SPECIAL ABILITIES
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AC Bonus +5 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+20') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +5/+5/+0 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+7/+27 with Ki point) (Ex) +7 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Disarm Disarm at +2, without an attack of opportunity.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 30' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Snake Style Gain +2 on Sense Motive checks, and deal piercing damage with unarmed attacks
Still Mind (Ex) +2 to saves against enchantment spells and effects.
Stunning Fist (7/day) (DC 17) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d8) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (7 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.