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What you missed is that the pinned creature can take no action except to break the pin...
A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check. A pinned creature can take verbal and mental actions, but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component. A pinned character who attempts to cast a spell or use a spell-like ability must make a concentration check (DC 10 + grappler's CMB + spell level) or lose the spell. Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.
Casting Spells while Pinned: The only spells which can be cast while grappling or pinned are those without somatic components and whose material components (if any) you have in hand. Even so, you must make a concentration check (DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you're casting) or lose the spell.
I feel you may have also missed; "you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling"
and
I guess he means that grapple hampers their CMB (by applying dex penalty) wich they can use to break grapple, while -4 penalty to AC does not apply to CMB.
Also, just throwing this out:
A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD.
I tried to find your specific question, but I got lost, so here's my equally rambling response to you.
So, my barbarian has a +25 CMB to grapple.
I roll a 2. A 27 probably beats your CMD. You're grappled.
Let's say, for this instance, the barbarian also gains the grappled condition and all its associated penalties. He takes a -4 to dex. You take a -4 to dex. You have a -2 to all attack rolls, and can only use one-handed weapons. These penalties apply to either of us unless someone is maintaining or breaking grapple.
For instance, your escape artist is +15. You roll a 15, but the -4 to dex means you cannot break my 30 (32 CMD - 2 loss of dex) CMD. The -4 dex applies here, but you did not make an attack roll, so you do not take the -2 to attack rolls as well.
On my turn, I roll to maintain. 2 on the die plus +27 and a +5 circumstantial bonus. I choose to pin you. Now you not only have a -4 penalty to dex as a part of the PINNED condition, but you also have no dex bonus at all. So if you had a 20 dex, you'd apply a dex bonus as if it was a 6.
Breaking pinned is harder.
But back to the initial question, I think. When pinning, the grappler still has the grappled condition. He still has the penalties for being grappled. You have the more stringent penalties for being pinned. Breaking a grapple/pin against a normal opponent isn't supposed to be difficult since grappling isn't necessarily wrestling. Grappling can be as simple as grabbing someone's shirt collar and yanking on it or as complex as Greco-Roman wresting, depending on the character/player investment. Grappling between two non-specialized characters is used to slow down casters and trip people up.
For the most part, you'll find that only characters specialized in grapple (some monks, barbarians, rogues, and fighters) will engage that combat maneuver and they DO NOT gain the grapple penalties because it's their schtick. In these cases, breaking grapple or pin is nigh impossible for the normal character build (see the barbarian's 32 CMD), but these cases are much rarer.
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You don't lose the grappled condition, you gain the pinned condition. So you have the grappled and pinned conditions
if grappled;
-4 dex
-2 att
an additional -2 to CMB
bad for casting
if pinned;
-2 att
an additional =2 to CMB
-4 dex
no dex mod to cmd (you still take dex penalty if you have one)
-4 to AC(which also applies to CMD)
worse for casting
The only 'unstackables' are the -2's, -4 dex and the caster screwings.
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I choose to pin you. Now you not only have a -4 penalty to dex as a part of the PINNED condition
The Pinned condition does not list a -4 Dex penalty, rather you lose your Dex Bonus to AC (and thus CMD) and take a further -4 penalty to AC (and thus CMD).
but you also have no dex bonus at all. So if you had a 20 dex, you'd apply a dex bonus as if it was a 6.
Ifyour Dexterity is 20/+5 your CMD would drop by a total of -9 (5 points for loses dex bonus and a further -4 for the reduction to AC).
Breaking pinned is harder.
Actually it is as easy, or easier, because the person doing the pinning is not only Grappled (-4 Dex Penalty) but also loses Dex bonus, which if you read the Ability bonus and penalty section as I do means they stack.
So if you had a BAB of +5, Strength Mod of +2, Dexterity Mod of +4 your CMD would normally be 21 but with the Grappled condition you suffer a -4 Dexterity penalty that applies a -2 to CMD. So the DC your foe would need to break out of the grapple if you are just grappling and not pinning them would be 19 (normal CMD -2).
However when you pin your foe, your CMD would become 15 (21 -2 for grappling and a further -4 for losing your Dex bonus to AC that also carries over to CMD)
Further, when pinned, your dexterity doesn't suffer a penalty like it would when just grappling, so your Escape Artist modifier would actually be higher and possibly better than using your CMB.
Its a mess to be honest and why I feel the 3.5 Grappling rules are better. Its worse because it uses the Ability Bonus / Penalty rules that are themselves screwy and different people interpret RAW differently for.
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You don't lose the grappled condition, you gain the pinned condition. So you have the grappled and pinned conditions
if grappled;
-4 dex
-2 att
an additional -2 to CMB
bad for casting
if pinned;
-2 att
an additional =2 to CMB
-4 dex
no dex mod to cmd (you still take dex penalty if you have one)
-4 to AC(which also applies to CMD)
worse for castingThe only 'unstackables' are the -2's, -4 dex and the caster screwings.
Hmm, I don't read RAW like that, I read "Pinned is a more severe
version of grappled, and their effects do not stack." to mean if Pinned you use that condition and not Grappled if you are pinned. Basically I read Grappled > Pinned in the same way as Fatigued > Exhausted and Shaken > Frightened > Panicked with the effects of the more severe condition replacing the effects of the lesser condition.But I can see your reading of the RAW as also being valid.
I really wish Paizo had done a better job of cleaning up the Grappling rules - especially as people had issues with the 3.5 rules which I feel are actually clearer than the PF rules.
I choose to pin you. Now you not only have a -4 penalty to dex as a part of the PINNED conditionThe Pinned condition does not list a -4 Dex penalty, rather you lose your Dex Bonus to AC (and thus CMD) and take a further -4 penalty to AC (and thus CMD).
but you also have no dex bonus at all. So if you had a 20 dex, you'd apply a dex bonus as if it was a 6.Ifyour Dexterity is 20/+5 your CMD would drop by a total of -9 (5 points for loses dex bonus and a further -4 for the reduction to AC).
Breaking pinned is harder.Actually it is as easy, or easier, because the person doing the pinning is not only Grappled (-4 Dex Penalty) but also loses Dex bonus, which if you read the Ability bonus and penalty section as I do means they stack.
So if you had a BAB of +5, Strength Mod of +2, Dexterity Mod of +4 your CMD would normally be 21 but with the Grappled condition you suffer a -4 Dexterity penalty that applies a -2 to CMD. So the DC your foe would need to break out of the grapple if you are just grappling and not pinning them would be 19 (normal CMD -2).
However when you pin your foe, your CMD would become 15 (21 -2 for grappling and a further -4 for losing your Dex bonus to AC that also carries over to CMD)
Further, when pinned, your dexterity doesn't suffer a penalty like it would when just grappling, so your Escape Artist modifier would actually be higher and possibly better than using your CMB.
Its a mess to be honest and why I feel the 3.5 Grappling rules are better. Its worse because it uses the Ability Bonus / Penalty rules that are themselves screwy and different people interpret RAW differently for.
Oh [insert explicative here] I mis-read and will change some of those initial words.
Grappling archetypes don't help with the rules either: There are dex/ac penalties to grappling? I wouldn't know since I haven't experienced them in five levels. [drip irritation at all the plus this and minus that rules that thankfully go out the window with archetypes]
Man, I'm wondering from the OP, were you asking for curiosity or was there something in particular you were looking at?
Edit: Or I do not get to edit the aforementioned post. Woo.
Anyway, like everyone else on the forums, I may respectfully disagree with the statement that grappling is stronger than pinning. When you're grappled, at least you can still make an attack; when you're pinned, you have to burn a round attempting an escape and hoping that someone doesn't come along and coup de grace you. Breaking out may be easier if the grappler invested nothing in his abilities, but being pinned is much riskier.
Pinned says "Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack." wich can be interpreted by "pinned replaces grappled" or "if same penalty applied by pinned and grappled, apply only highest one"
Now you not only have a -4 penalty to dex as a part of the PINNED condition,There lies the problem - pinned never lists any penalties to DEX, only denying DEX bonus to AC and -4 penalty to AC. It alsow says "Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack." wich can be interpreted by "pinned replaces grappled" or "if same penalty applied by pinned and grappled, apply only highest one"
Yeah, I misread, but cannot fix it. I blame insomnia? considering the number of times I re-read the grappled and pinned conditions.
I started a thread for FAQing on the Grapple/Pin stacking issue here.
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Ok so that was Player 1's action. Now Player 2 needs to break it to do anything. Player 1 now is grappled with -4 dex AND loses his dex bonus. Player 2's +4 CMB vs. Player 1's CMD of (10+1 + 3 + 3) 17 - 3 (dex bonus) - 2 (-4 Dex penalty) = DC of 12... - 4 counting Player 2's CMB is a DC of 8. 20% easier to break the Pin than to break the Grapple.
With Escape Artist: (+1 + 3) = +4 (-3 Dex bonus - 2 armor) = -1 vs. CMD of 12 is a DC 13. Again easier than the DC 15 above and with a few ranks in escape artist or a class skill it would also be easy to break this way.
Where are you getting the -3 Dex Bonus for Escape Artist from?
Are you reading the Errataed Pinned Condition of "A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus" to mean loses its Dexterity Bonus to everything (i.e. including Dex based skills)?
I read it as losing its Dex Bonus to AC only (as the pre-errata version specified Flat Footed), which would mean the Escape Artist check for Player 2 to escape the Pin would be +2 (1 Rank, +3 Dex Bonus -2 Armour check penalty) versus Player 1's CMD of 12, or success on a roll of 10 or more, so 55% chance of success (it would still be better to use CMB to break the Pin.
That means you can again make AoOs when pinned and not grappled
I don't believe that is correct, the Pinned condition states "A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take" and then seems to list what is possible, limited to:
Attempt to free itself (using CMB or Escape Artist)
Take verbal and mental actions (but cannot cast any spells that require a somatic or material component).
And that is about it.
Pinned seems to be a terrible option
Yep unless you plan to tie them up pinning is mostly pointless and worse opens you up to Sneak Attack damage too!
A grappled creature can still full-attack you. A pinned creature cannot.
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That means you can again make AoOs when pinned and not grappled and no longer incur the -2 to attack rolls and combat maneuver checks even though you're more "entangled" than before.
MattR nothing says you lose the grappled condition when you gained the pinned condition.
Just as nothing says you lose stunned condition by being dazzled or invisible.
Okay a few things
Firstly... whenever you make thr check to maintain a grappl successfully, you can perform any of the actions listed thereafter. This does not require any additional check.
Secondly... pinning is really about taking away options. It is an excellent option in many cases... particularly with a heavy investment into grapple feats (see pinning rend)
Third. When you lose an ability bonus, you lose it... for everything unless it specifically says otherwise. So this would apply to escape artist.
Also, when you are pinning someone. Losing your dex bonus does not set you at 10 dex... you just don't get your bonus (if positive.... you always keep a negative). So, if you have a 14 dex, you act as if you have a 10 dex while you have the grappled condition. If you then pin someone you lose your dex bonus. Since at 10 effective dex you don't have a bonus.... nothing changes.
The only reason that this is stupid IMO is because of agile maneuvers... but that is a different rant.
About the tetori and wearing armor? Sure he can. He loses his monk AC bonus but does not lose graceful grappler. This is for the same reason that most fighter archtypes can't use glives dueling... because even though it may act like weapon training... and even though it replaces weapon training.... it isn't weapon training
Keep in mind for a tetori that losing that AC bonus also means losing that bonus to CMD, which is nice for holding on to targets.
Correctamundo
And armor doesn't help whatsoever with CMD... still if you wanted to use a hybrid build or something the option exists.
If you build around it, grapple can be pretty boss. Crane style merges well to help buff Cmd. Add in some bracers of armor with the "brawling" quality for +2 on grapples and a decent ring of protection for an even higher CMD
Always remember that all dodge sacred circumstance profane and deflection bonus add to CMD.
Forgot about this. Ok, so Dodge would add +1 to CMD (which you'd lose when you pinned someone)Keep in mind for a tetori that losing that AC bonus also means losing that bonus to CMD, which is nice for holding on to targets.Correctamundo
And armor doesn't help whatsoever with CMD... still if you wanted to use a hybrid build or something the option exists.
If you build around it, grapple can be pretty boss. Crane style merges well to help buff Cmd. Add in some bracers of armor with the "brawling" quality for +2 on grapples and a decent ring of protection for an even higher CMD
Always remember that all dodge sacred circumstance profane and deflection bonus add to CMD.
Yep... but a tetori monk gets to keep his dex bonus so those bonuses from fighting defensively and dodge and monk levels and such all get to stick around. Its a pretty good archtype IMO.
though fighting defensively does penalize CMB as usual.
Personally my favorite is a barbarian grappler. Animal fury gives a free bite attack with every grapple check... and with hive totem, reckless abandon, and the feats and rage bonuses you can easily see a CMB and Cmd upwards of 40 each by level 13 or so
Hmmm I don't read it that way. Fighting defensively as a standard action is listed under the heading for "attack" and grapple is an option under special attacks. A maneuver check is alsodefined as an attack roll. I have always played under the assumption that one could always fight defensively if they took any attack action.