Roll with it, Goblin Rogue! (Advice me, please!)

[SpaceRobotFive]

Level 4 Goblin Rogue (Scout archetype) concept
Feats:
Level 1: Roll With It (Goblin racial feat)
Level 2 Rogue Talent: Finesse Rouge (Works for natural weapons, see below)
level 3: Skill Focus- Acrobatics
Level 4 rogue Talent: Fast Getaway

(Possible other feats for later: Weapon focus- Bite Natural Weapon, Dodge, …?)
(Possible other rogue Talents: Bleeding attack?, or …?)

Primary Skills:
Acrobatics, sneak, sleight of hand, perception

Alternate Racial Trait: Hard Head, Big Teeth (Gives 1d4 natural weapon bite)

Concept and Mechanics:
I’m thinking I want a cowardly little Goblin that is an opportunist, but can be vicious and relentless when shiny objects will be rewarded. I sort of want a fun character that is “mostly” good with combat and that I will enjoy role playing, which is why I’m considering using my bite natural attack as my main weapon.

My Idea here is to use the Scout’s Charge (Rogue, scout archetype) as means for inflicting sneak attack with my Natural bite attack. Since I will be charging, my AC will be lowered and I will be open for attacks. If an attack hits, I can try to negate some or all of the damage with “Roll With It” and be moved away instead of taking damage (If I so wish). I am then set up for my next Scout’s Charge. As I understand it, “Roll With It” Causes me to be staggered, regardless if it works or not. The beauty to this concept, is if “Roll With It” does work, and I’m sent back, and I am staggered, I can still use my Scouts Charge as a standard action my next turn, and get off more sneak attack damage. (Since you can use a charge as a standard action instead of full action if you can only move your max speed… As it turns out, “Roll With It” can only push you back your max speed)
Taking Skill focus Acrobatics will help increase my chances to negate damage with “Roll with it.”
I threw Fast getaway in there so I can withdraw if I’m in a flank and need to skitter away, being the opportunist.

Looking to see if this would be a viable start to a build, and if this would work in later game. I haven’t played a rogue since 3.5e, so I’m a bit rusty. Am I throwing too much away, just to use a bite attack? I’d REALLY enjoy role playing this, but MIGHT be convinced to use a weapon if the deal is sweet enough, or change my character all together if this just won’t work.

I appreciate any new ideas for feats, campaign traits, or rogue talents.
I’d also appreciate feedback, improvements, and constructive criticism.

Thanks! :D

[Havoq]

Ask your GM one question: Will they allow you to use “Roll With It” against a mob that is allowed a free grab CMB after a successful attack. If not, the FEAT is a trap. Been there, done that.

[SpaceRobotFive]

Havoq wrote:

Ask your GM one question: Will they allow you to use “Roll With It” against a mob that is allowed a free grab CMB after a successful attack. If not, the FEAT is a trap. Been there, done that.

Wouldn't that Imply that EVERY mob we would be up against would have said ability? That seems very circumstantial. Sure, That might come up in a campaign, but my GM tends to work off what we have built our characters up to accomplish. My GM's goal isn't to punish us and make us feel that we wasted a feat in character creation.

[Havoq]

Grab:

If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity...

Just be sure before you take it that you know how your GM will rule.

[Secret Wizard]

It's not that great.

If you want to play with Scout, go with Spring Attack and Circling Mongoose (for positioning and full attacks respectively.)

A Rogue should not be getting hit, you don't have the DR, the CMD, the Fort save nor the hit dice to take the brunt of the side effects of getting hit.

Another fun build for Goblin Rogues is torches. With the Surprise Weapon trait, the Flame Hand and Burn! burn! burn! feats, you can get a ton more accuracy and damage, and it combines well with Makeshift Scrapper and Underground Chemist plus the Bomber Rogue talent.

[Scott Wilhelm]

I don't know that cowardly is the way to go in combination with Roll with It. Roll with It is a melee feat, and an awesome one. If I took the Roll with It Feat, I'd play my goblin super aggressive, charging straight into the thick of the fighting, getting knocked hundreds of feet away, then charging right back in.

I don't think I'd bother with biting, since the damage won't be in any hurry to get good. Well, maybe. But the way I'd wrack up the damage is with Sneak Attacks and Dirty Trick Feats.

I'd start with say a level in Fighter or Ranger, then I'd take 3 levels in Monk Master of Many Styles and take Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes. Then I'd take a few--like 4 eventually--levels in Alchemist with the Vivisectionist Archetype. The Dex Mutagen will increase the number of Attacks of Opportunity you can get with Snake Fang and Combat Reflexes. Between your armor--Mithril Agile Breastplate, eventually--and heavy shield + your augmented-already-high dex and Small size, you will be missed a lot, getting lots of bonus attacks, and when you take Quick, Great, dirty Trick, you can make your opponents Blind and lock in your Sneak Attack Damage.

And when they do hit you, you can just Roll with It. RwI lets you make a Reflex Save vs. Melee Strikes, and multiclassing in Ranger, Monk, and Alchemist as I am suggesting, your Reflex Save is going to be stupid high.

Another way you can go with Goblin is a Trip Build. Goblins can take the Tangle Feet Feat, which makes them one of the few creatures that can Trip creatures of any size, well make them fall prone, which is almost as good. Since those feats build upon moving through threatened squares, you might take Panther Style feats instead of Snake Style Feats, and take Cognatagen instead of Mutagen to raise your Wisdom instead of your Dex. Since Alchemists raise their Dex or Wis at the expense of the other, Roll with It will be less effective, since your Reflex Save will go down with your Dex, but it will be still be quite respectable, and you would still be well-served by it.

[DoomedPaladin01]

Really mean build in this thread--> aim for the eyes!

[SpaceRobotFive]

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

... and multiclassing in Ranger, Monk

Thanks for the feed back, but trying to stick with rogue. We Need trap finding and trap sense.

[Imbicatus]

Secret Wizard wrote:

Another fun build for Goblin Rogues is torches. With the Surprise Weapon trait, the Flame Hand and Burn! burn! burn! feats, you can get a ton more accuracy and damage, and it combines well with Makeshift Scrapper and Underground Chemist plus the Bomber Rogue talent.

I'll second this. It also combines really well with catch offguard and disarming foes. If you have catch off-guard and attack an unarmed foe they are flatfooted against the attack.

[SpaceRobotFive]

Imbicatus wrote:

Secret Wizard wrote:

Another fun build for Goblin Rogues is torches. With the Surprise Weapon trait, the Flame Hand and Burn! burn! burn! feats, you can get a ton more accuracy and damage, and it combines well with Makeshift Scrapper and Underground Chemist plus the Bomber Rogue talent.

I'll second this. It also combines really well with catch offguard and disarming foes. If you have catch off-guard and attack an unarmed foe they are flatfooted against the attack.

So, a bomber goblin seems like something I could get into as well, but I’d like to stick with the Rogue class.

I've been looking into some of your suggestions and I found a unique Idea that would pair with the Scout Archetype (I’m not set on the Scout, it just worked out that way) and using the rogue Bomber talent as well as using the feats Point Blank Shot and Charging Hurler. (Maybe add Throw Anything into the mix just for funsies)

I need to understand a few other things now about rogue bombs vs. alchemist bombs. Alchemist bombs do 1d6 (1d6 more per odd level) + int mod damage on a direct hit, and the splash damage is the bombs minimum damage.

For a rogue, it says damage from the bomb is equal to the rogues sneak attack damage (Which, coincidentally, increases in damage at the same rate as alchemists bombs. (Just minus the Intelligence modifier.) Right?

SO, if I understand this correctly, at level 3, I could throw a rogue bomb, and on a direct hit do 2d6 points of damage. If I used the Scouts Charge with the Charging Hurler feat, Would I then do 2d6 points on a direct hit, PLUS 2d6 points of sneak attack damage on top of that?!

[Secret Wizard]

Quote:

So, a bomber goblin seems like something I could get into as well, but I’d like to stick with the Rogue class.

When did I say you shouldn't?

Quote:

For a rogue, it says damage from the bomb is equal to the rogues sneak attack damage (Which, coincidentally, increases in damage at the same rate as alchemists bombs. (Just minus the Intelligence modifier.) Right?

Ok. So you are slowly getting to the build I recommended. You need the Underground Chemist archetype to deal sneak attack damage with Bombs and to add the Intelligence modifier.

OTHERWISE, you don't deal sneak attack damage with splash weapons.

When you realize that the Fire Hand feat grants you +1 accuracy with both torches and bombs, and that the Burn! Burn! Burn! feat allows you to deal an extra 1d4 damage with both, and that since you are focusing on bombs and an improvised weapon (torches), let me know.

[Scott Wilhelm]

SpaceRobotFive wrote:

Scott Wilhelm wrote:

... and multiclassing in Ranger, Monk

Thanks for the feed back, but trying to stick with rogue. We Need trap finding and trap sense.

The Cryptbreaker Alchemist Archetype is pretty good at trapfinding, but they don't have Sneak Attack, and you can't be a Cryptbreaker/Vivisectionist.

If you really want to be a rogue, you can still develop Dirty Tricks to support Sneak Attack as I was saying before.

You should take a long look at Ninja: most people who want to Rogue stuff like being a Ninja better than being a Rogue.

Its not the way you want to go, but I have a build that combines Ninja, Gunslinger, and Drunken Master Monk: Drunken Ninja with a Gun! That would work great as a Goblin. Use the Ninja Vanishing Trick to lock in the Sneak Attack Damage and attack Flatfooted AC, and since your firing a gun, you ignore armor: Ranged Touch Attacks vs Flatfooted AC + Sneak Attack Damage, and with Drunken Master, you have more Ki than you need to turn Invisible with. Goblins have a special Feat that lets them use full-sized guns.

Sorry if I'm derailing the thread, but I thought it would be worth mentioning to other readers interested in Goblin builds.