Hi all just started a new game all first lvl and with have a summoner in the party and his eidolon seems to be pissing out damage .
And i wondered how easy is it for a player to make an eidolon that's a bit of a damage monster
All i know about it is its humanoid and gets two attacks around and in one round did over twenty points with no crit
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An optimized eidolon can easily be a campaign killer. Granted, an optimized anything can also be campaign killer but it's just easier with some classes.
The standard advice is to do a audit of his character because he's likely doing something wrong but he also might be legit. The better advice is to talk to him and get him to tone down the power level for the enjoyment of everyone involved.
So is that kind of damage normal or has the guy made a glass cannon
The problem with Eidolons is that they dish out a lot of damage while allowing the Summoner to hang back and cast buffs etc.
So, you have double the action economy and a "pet" that can be built to dish out more damage than an Animal Companion (which many people consider bad enough at low levels) and some martial builds.
The weakness of course is the Summoner, but he can spend time avoiding risk while allowing his Eidolon to rip things up.
- Gauss
There are two points about eidolons:
1) Most are not correctly build. The rules are so complicated with so many FAQ and errata to follow that you need to know the game rather well to make it correct.
2) It is easier to optimize an eidolon than a optimized fighter. Because of that many eidolons outdamage melee PCs. (I am not talking about optimized builds).
All in all it may be that the eidolon build has an error in it but it may as well be that it is just better than the other pcs.
If you can feed us additional details, we can give better feedback.
With just a level 1 Summoner, I can make an 3 evo point Eidolon that has 3 natural attacks and pounce, so at level 1:
On the charge,
2 Claws +5(2+1d6)
1 Bite +3(2+1d6)
On average it'll deal 17.5 damage per charge (assuming everything hits).
A valid build, but boring in terms of Eidolons.
Eidolon an summoners are quite powerful, but the eidolon himself is only overpowered at low to mid levels. The martial classes match and eventually surpase him. Are you going to play for several levrls? Or only at low levrls?
I think we would be able to tell ou more about how normal/overpowered/legal that eidolon is if we had the build.
AC isn't a problem, they have a lot and can be mage armored. The will save (for banish, holy word, etc) is a problem, specially for quadrupedal (pouncing) eidolons
Hi all just started a new game all first lvl and with have a summoner in the party and his eidolon seems to be pissing out damage .
And i wondered how easy is it for a player to make an eidolon that's a bit of a damage monster
All i know about it is its humanoid and gets two attacks around and in one round did over twenty points with no crit
A 2handed barbarian with power attack and cleave can do the same thing, probably doing more damage. Lets say an 18 strength, raging for a 22, thats 2d6+12 for an average of 19 points of damage and a max of 24 points without a crit per, with cleave thats an average of 38 points for 2 hits and a max of 48 without crits.
If you optimize you can do a TON of damage even at first level.
Summoners, and specifically their eidolons are really easy to optimize because everything is a choice. So if your group normally doesnt optimize the summoner will be overpowered even compared to powerful classes like a druid or even barbarian, which are more complicated to optimize.
Will post the build later so you can check
With ability increase (strength) [2], improved natural attack (claws) [1], bite [1] and improved natural armor (to account for +5 natural bonus to AC) [1] evolutions its full attack becomes 2 claws +5 (1d6+4) and bite +5 (1d6+4) with average damage of 22.5.
It has magnificent 1d10+1 hp before the summoner has to start burning through own hp, however.
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Another thing to remember is that eidolon effectiveness isn't linear or quadratic.
The higher the levels the more apparent the difference the 3/4 hd makes.
So at level 7 when the eidolon is only level 6 you don't feel it much at all.. The eidolon is pretty much as brutal as a fighter in every way.
By the time you get to level 14 and the eidolon is now only level 11 that difference starts to feel pretty significant.
The Eidolon loses combat relevance the higher your levels go.
A lot of campaigns never make it to high levels but adventure paths can.
Here are the stats for the what Tony is talking about.
There does not seem much to it, but neither of us has
looked at summoner class.Eidolon
Male biped (claws)
CL 1. CR1
Str 16.
Dex 12.
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11Fort +3. Reflex +1 will +2
Ac 16 dex 1 natural 5
Cmb 4. Cmd 15
Claws x2 +4, 1d6+3
Feat - improved natural armour.
Special abilities - dark vision
So it only makes two attacks at +4, and 1d6+3 damage each?
If that is significantly more, than say, your party fighter or barbarian does, then it's not the eidolon build that is broken here and you should rather look at the rest of the party.
Here are the stats for the what Tony is talking about.
There does not seem much to it, but neither of us has
looked at summoner class.Eidolon
Male biped (claws)
CL 1. CR1
Str 16.
Dex 12.
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11Fort +3. Reflex +1 will +2
Ac 16 dex 1 natural 5
Cmb 4. Cmd 15
Claws x2 +4, 1d6+3
Feat - improved natural armour.
Special abilities - dark vision
This seems to be a case of dissonance between players in the same table. This Eidolon isn't overpowered at all in my opinion, if he is stealing the spotlight, it's because the rest of the table is fairly unoptimized, probably.
He does 2 attacks at +4, with 1d6+3 damage. Consider a TWF invulnerable rager urban barbarian with two hand axes. He'll have STR 16 DEX 15 CON 13 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 8, Two weapon fighting and Double slice. In rage, he'll have STR 20, so he'll do
Hand axes x2 +4 1d6+5 x3 crit
He can throw axes :
+3 1d6+5 (in rage) x3 crit, or
x2 +1 1d6+5 x3 crit (in rage)
In the defensive end, we'll have:
AC 17 (Scale Mail 5, DEX +2)
At level 2, he'll gain DR.
For +3 Ref +2 will +0 (+2 in rage)
So the eidolon is inferior. And this is a TWF barbarian, which isn't the best of the barbarians (a 2h barbarian with power attack and cleave would be doing +7 2d6+9 crit 19+, two attacks if enemies are adjacent)
One could argue that the eidolon is maybe too close to a the damage of a full martial class for being a companion, but that could be true for other companions too:
The bear companion of the druid would be doing +4 1d4+2 bite, +4 1d3+2 claw x2, with AC 16 (with dodge feat), which is slightly less damage per hit than eidolon, but 3 attacks, and same AC, but better saves (FOR +4, REF +5, Will +1)
Note that eidolons can never wear armor, and are expensive to build defenses into.
This is tricky because the GM needs to exploit this to bring balanced to the equation, just like he would to an all damage PC with weak HP and AC.
At first level, eidolons are scary. By 4th or 5th things even out.
If your GM is desperate for a house rule fix, have him raise the cost of the pounce evolution by a point or two.
If your GM is desperate for a house rule fix, have him raise the cost of the pounce evolution by a point or two.
Not needed, as this eidolon is biped
As our GM said its low fantasy the rest of us have gone fairly normal classes all human we've all just come of age so have no gear at all
My character was armed with a bread knife so his eidolon is totally out gunning all of us .
So is there anyway we can reign him in a bit with out havimg to totally kneecap him
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Well considering the information given, perhaps you should give us the stats/info on the rest of the party to better figure out what the problem is. As others have said, that Eidolon doesn't seem overpowered, so maybe the rest of the party is just set up poorly or not balanced to one another? What is the rest of the party composition? Are there any dedicated damage dealers? Is the group a bunch of hybrid classes? Remember that many spell casters are a little weak at very low levels if blasting unless highly optimized. Just really need more info to determine why the Summoner seems broken, before trying to come up with ways to nerf him.
As our GM said its low fantasy the rest of us have gone fairly normal classes all human we've all just come of age so have no gear at all
My character was armed with a bread knife so his eidolon is totally out gunning all of us .
So is there anyway we can reign him in a bit with out havimg to totally kneecap him
It isn't. The Eidolon rules are built assuming he is in a normal party (one where the fighter has a two handed sword, not a bread knife). To put it in the same level that the rest of the group, you'll need to kneecap, hamstring and mangle him and and then crush his spine, I'm affraid.
If your party is going to get out of that state (like getting gear anywhere soon), you are in no trouble, after a couple sessions things will normalize. But if your campaign is about this survival style (few gear, etc, like in Lost or the old Resident Evil videogames, etc), then the Eidolon will reign supreme.
BTW, a fairly normal class with human race outdamages the Eidolon too, assuming he has access to normal gear. A regular human fighter with power attack, cleave and weapon focus in two handed sword (which absolutely standard, no combo or obscure stuff from splatbooks needed), will have 16 str +2 racial and do 2d6+6 damage with +6 to hit to two adjacent targets, crit with 19+ and AC 16 (scale mail and Dex 12), outdamaging the eidolon comfortably.
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Still not sure why AC is a problem for Eidolons. I regularly see Eidolons running around with 21-24 AC using mage armor around level 1-3 which is far more than a typical DPR build. People also argue the DPR is less than a fighter but are forgetting there is still the actual summoner standing in the background casting spells (though granted more buffing than blasting). And a summoner can wear light armor with no arcane failure to boot.
In terms of people not arguing it's brokenness, there's a reason the summoner dominates the DPR Olympics boards aside from rage lance pounce.
Have to agree with Kahnya and Gustavo. A lot of Pathfinder's game balance depends on more-or-less sticking to the recommended WBL guidelines. It's no surprise that a character who's stuck using a bread knife can't keep up in terms of damage.
Still not sure why AC is a problem for Eidolons. I regularly see Eidolons running around with 21-24 AC using mage armor around level 1-3 which is far more than a typical DPR build. People also argue the DPR is less than a fighter but are forgetting there is still the actual summoner standing in the background casting spells (though granted more buffing than blasting). And a summoner can wear light armor with no arcane failure to boot.
In terms of people not arguing it's brokenness, there's a reason the summoner dominates the DPR Olympics boards aside from rage lance pounce.
sure, a well optimized eidolon does a ton of damage. But we are talking about the one in this example, which is fairly standard. Any character built for damage should outdamage it.
As our GM said its low fantasy the rest of us have gone fairly normal classes all human we've all just come of age so have no gear at all
My character was armed with a bread knife so his eidolon is totally out gunning all of us .
So is there anyway we can reign him in a bit with out havimg to totally kneecap him
Well there's your answer, if the party has virtually no gear, of course the character who doesn't need any gear is going to shine. Summoners, Sorcerers, even Monks will suddenly look super powerful when compared to the rest of the party, just on virtue of not needing weapons or armor to work.
A level 1 fighter is expected to have a set of scale armor and a greatsword at least (or whatever other weapon set he wants to specialize in).
TLDR/heard this line too many times-
We had a Summoner in our Serpent's Skull campaign. His eidolon was built to be a second melee fighter, the summoner was battlefield control. He kicked ass in some spots, and was dismissed in favor of Summoned creatures in others. The player did a great job balancing the class in battle.
The Eidolon is designed to keep the Summoner alive at low levels, which it did admirably. The party balance, at later levels, allowed the Summoner to switch out his eidolon for Summoned critters to aid the party, which was a common tactic.
The Eid will seem really powerful at the start; don't worry, your fighter will catch and surpass it soon. Feel better?
Why not work in tandem with the eidolon, tank 1 and tank 2? Why complain about a seriously awesome weapon that soaks up damage, can't be killed, and gives you flanking?
Silver linings. Use what is in front of you to press on. The summoner class is not an eidolon build, add flaccid caster to it- it is one of the more challenging classes to play. On one hand, infinite choice (eidolon) and the other selective choice (summoner).
And finally, OP, when you have a crazy whatsit to smack about your enemies, while you stand there stunned holding your dented knife and peeing down your leg, why not let that whatsit and his buddy gain some glory while you soak up XP like so much you-know-what in your sock? Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
And if you want a 'legal' build, Herolab does the work for you.
If it were me, I'd make friends with the Summoner.
Here are the stats for the what Tony is talking about.
There does not seem much to it, but neither of us has
looked at summoner class.Eidolon
Male biped (claws)
CL 1. CR1
Str 16.
Dex 12.
Con 13
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 11Fort +3. Reflex +1 will +2
Ac 16 dex 1 natural 5
Cmb 4. Cmd 15
Claws x2 +4, 1d6+3
Feat - improved natural armour.
Special abilities - dark vision
This is your "pissing out damage" eidolon? A randomly-generated druid with a badger tops that. That's about as unoptimized as I've ever seen an eidolon. Which isn't criticism--I like that people are willing to try something that isn't "look at me, I'm basically a marilith with levels in Cthulhu".
Another thing with our group is none of us are in to optimizing where just not bothered by it are characters are all good at what they do but all of them have background skills which they would be able to use to survive in normal life if they where not adventures .
This along with the low fantasy setting just makes it seem a bit OTT
Another thing with our group is none of us are in to optimizing where just not bothered by it are characters are all good at what they do but all of them have background skills which they would be able to use to survive in normal life if they where not adventures .
This along with the low fantasy setting just makes it seem a bit OTT
The skills aren't really something that alter your combat prowess. A barbarian could have 2d6+9 dmg even if he has levels in proffesion (lumberjack) or whatever.
I don't know how to help you :(. That eidolon is both legal and fairly unoptimized. It wouldn't cause any peoblem at my table, not any more than a druid's companion. If you have problems with it, maybe you should ban the classes with companions because your campaign is gear-nerfed and compainions don't need gear
"All i know about it is its humanoid and gets two attacks around and in one round did over twenty points with no crit"
"Claws x2 +4, 1d6+3"
One of the above statements is wrong.
Yeah, the eidolon can be pretty powerful, especially with decent gear. We've got an eidolon in my party that, at level 7, does an average of like 30 damage per hit with an impacting earthbreaker.
I've done a little analysis of companions and, at low level, they will often outshine regular character. The keyword here is at low level; the highest level animal companion cant "technically" go past CR 11-12 (and that's at level 20 for the master); I havent done the analysis with the eidolon, but it wouldnt surprise me if it was also the case.
I think the summoner is an interesting idea, but it very powerful when used wisely. Wait a bit and you'll overpower it easily.
Then again, I can understand that it might be killing your fun. Maybe ask the summoner to let you get a bit of action sometimes? In my previous example, whe're in an all caster party. Me (as a magus) is the closest thing we have to a melee fighter, so having the eidolon alongside me is helpful.
So is that kind of damage normal or has the guy made a glass cannon
A 1st-level barbarian with a greatsword can manage +9 attack (2d6+10/19-20).
That eidolon is in no way "pissing out damage."
It looks to me like this is a case of storyline setting gear and such bellow the standard; then comparing it to the eidolon which mostly ignores gear.
The thing is a poorly equiped strong character like a fighter or barbarian designed to do so can match the eidolon while wielding the breae knife.
Lvl 1 barbarian can do 1d3+8 or so with his bread knife.
More or less if the eidolon is designed to do fun stuff like climb or move around to flank and help the group once they get level suitable gear it will be fine.
If the aim is to be low magic or such throught the campaign though the eidolon will always look good.
In a game where the average player is going to be doing 1d8+2 damage then doing 1D6+3 twice a round is a lot of damage .
And before anyone starts of about optimizing or any of that crap that's not the type of game we're playing
TLDR/heard this line too many times-
We had a Summoner in our Serpent's Skull campaign. His eidolon was built to be a second melee fighter, the summoner was battlefield control. He kicked ass in some spots, and was dismissed in favor of Summoned creatures in others. The player did a great job balancing the class in battle.
The Eidolon is designed to keep the Summoner alive at low levels, which it did admirably. The party balance, at later levels, allowed the Summoner to switch out his eidolon for Summoned critters to aid the party, which was a common tactic.
The Eid will seem really powerful at the start; don't worry, your fighter will catch and surpass it soon. Feel better?
Why not work in tandem with the eidolon, tank 1 and tank 2? Why complain about a seriously awesome weapon that soaks up damage, can't be killed, and gives you flanking?
Silver linings. Use what is in front of you to press on. The summoner class is not an eidolon build, add flaccid caster to it- it is one of the more challenging classes to play. On one hand, infinite choice (eidolon) and the other selective choice (summoner).
And finally, OP, when you have a crazy whatsit to smack about your enemies, while you stand there stunned holding your dented knife and peeing down your leg, why not let that whatsit and his buddy gain some glory while you soak up XP like so much you-know-what in your sock? Why look a gift horse in the mouth?
And if you want a 'legal' build, Herolab does the work for you.
If it were me, I'd make friends with the Summoner.
This post, even if not intentionally, gives all the arguments needed to ban the summoner in your games.
As i already stated, get proper gear. Most characters don't work without that. There's a reason fighters get an average of 175 gp worth of starting gear.
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I understand that you seem to think people are telling you to focus on character optimization. That's not what's being said. What we're saying is your GM has dropped the campaigns power level far below what Pathfinder was designed for, and has not dropped the campaign power level uniformly (that would actually be very difficult to accomplish).
Pathfinder is not very well designed for "low magic" games, let alone "low magic no money" unfortunately. Alot of the game balance is rather dependent on having equipment and magic items, and on having the right amount of money's worth of them at that.
If you drop down the gear, the magic item access, or the funds, you're nerfing melee types and half-casters alot, full casters a bit less, but still notable, but you're not really nerfing summoned creatures, animal companions, or eidolons at all.
I've wanted to run low/no magic Pathfinder before; but it can't do it very well out of the box.
If you're looking for low or no-magic, I would suggest This and This, which are well designed houserules to remove magic items (and most off the effects of WBL) from pathfinder's game balancing mechanic, and instead place the game balance more into the characters themselves. For your purposes, you might want to limit which options (but not how many points' worth) they can take, but they should definitely be able to take the options that raise their math. In the case of spellcasters, I would also allow the ones that give them more spells. Those are basically the essentials for balance purposes.
That will take care of the party's *Need* for magic items to keep up with the challenges, and will take care of the party's need for magic items in order to keep up with the Eidolon and Summoner, who are less hurt by "no magic items" than the rest of the party.
However, even with this, the characters will still need decent mundane equipment (armor, swords, axes, whatever) in order to keep up with the eidolon.
TL:DR; You're going to have balance problems if you're not giving the players access to the things that make them balanced, or some sort of system designed to compensate for that fact.
In a game where the average player is going to be doing 1d8+2 damage then doing 1D6+3 twice a round is a lot of damage .
And before anyone starts of about optimizing or any of that crap that's not the type of game we're playing
Nothing wrong with playing that sort of game. Though your damage will go up uless you deliberately avoid power attack or specializarion.
Anyhow in that low gear enviroment monks ac and eidolon will be strong.
Based on this...
the low fantasy setting just makes it seem a bit OTT
And this...
And before anyone starts of about optimizing or any of that crap that's not the type of game we're playing
It would seem that the Summoner is just not something fit for your game. As has been said many times, the Summoner is very easy to make optimized, more likely to be problematic at low levels, stat independant, and relatively gear independant at low levels. I'd recommend an out of game conversation with the player controlling the Summoner. If he/she sees the problem, this should be relatively easy - offering him/her to remake into a different class is probably best. Otherwise, you'll be constantly having to check up on the Eidolon.
Remember that the point of the game is to have fun. If one player's character is impeding the fun of others in the group (players or GM), then changes are appropriate. This is easiest when the player who's character is in question is on board with the idea. Even if he/she is not, if the character is taking away more than just a little bit of fun from more than one person at the table, then it's probably still a worthwile venture.
My 2 cp... Confession: Summoner hater here.
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Summoner is one of my favorite classes to play; but yeah, with the scenario you've described, the summoner will cause problems. So will other things.
The options as I see them are:
1. Use a houseruled system to replace the item balance you're not using, or
2. Don't allow Druids or Summoners, don't allow Rangers to take any of the better combat animal companions, or use archetypes focused on animal companions... Paladin mounts will likely also cause problems, as will gunslingers, as they get alot of their (drastically overpriced) equipment for free, including ammo.
If/when a player wants to take leadership, don't allow them to take a monster, animal, or magical beast, only humanoids that rely on equipment... and hope for the best.
I would probably be wary of allowing full casters, particularly the ones that have access to the whole spell list. Probably the least offensive will be the wizard, who will also be heavily crippled in this sort of game due to his severely limited spell access (can't afford spells).
In a game where the average player is going to be doing 1d8+2 damage then doing 1D6+3 twice a round is a lot of damage .
And before anyone starts of about optimizing or any of that crap that's not the type of game we're playing
Then ban the summoner, it is really hard to do less than 1d6+3 x2 with it.
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Out of the options I presented, option 1 is the superior option:
Benefits
1. Removes wealth & magic items from character balance (Don't give them magic items that raise their stats, the point is this houserule replaces that concept.) This frees you up to give them less stuff without drastically altering game balance.
2. Preserves party balance, characters will end up balanced like they are in stock pathfinder. This means they should (mechanically) be able to play any class without it causing any extra balance problems because of unusual houserules you're using (like low money, no magic items).
3. Gives you malleable points the players can use to upgrade their characters between levels. Less at the low levels, but you should be able to spread out the points evenly over a level, both giving the players the sense that they're progressing towards their next level, and making it more fun for them than it would otherwise be to be on a slow xp track.
If you feel that doesn't give the sort of need for caution/difficulty/risk you're wanting, no problem! But it's easier to adjust things on your end than on the players' end.
More Difficulty:
1. Use tougher encounters (more bad guys, or higher CR bad guys), and don't give more exp or treasure to compensate.
2. Pad the NPC's numbers (for instance you could +1 to all rolls and saves and damage over the normal stats, and add +1hp/cr, or even +2). Tougher fights.
3. Don't let the players control the adventure pace; Get in your "equivalent to 4 fights of your level per day", making the spellcasters conserve their limited abilities, and thus preserving the balance between characters with limited use abilities (alchemists, barbarians, wizards, paladins, clerics), and characters with unlimited use abilities (fighters, rogues).
If the Eidolon is biped at level one, shouldn't he be medium (not large), and thereby doing 1d4, not 1d6 damage with his claws?
I hate to necro a dead post but I was looking into this as I'm making a summoner and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.
Pretty sure he had the Improved Damage evolution.
A fighter with a greatsword and power attack should be able to top that eidolon easily damage, AC and hp wise. I think the problem is more that, from what was described, the other characters have nothing better than a kitchen knife. In this case maybe non-gear dependent characters should also have been limited in some way? Like restricting the summoner to using his summon monster powers until some point at which the other characters get reasonable gear? A monk would likely have caused just as much trouble in this campaign as it can also outdamage that eidolon..
does anyone else get flashbacks when they read these necrothreads? I was going through the early part thinking gosh this sounds familiar..
Anyhow if i remember correctly, one of the origonal issues from the ops game was it was a low fantsy game. when you have pet classes this creates a problem.
Essentially, Druid/eidolon pets advance assuming the party gets normal wealth progression. Which creates a power issue in a low fantasy game where the dm is holding back loot.
but really that eidolon was totally fine any even poorly built fighter following normal ideas for fighters should be better.