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One thing that's always bugged me about the cleric is the mass spell list, and Turn Undead (1-4e) and Channel Energy (PF). Assuming you're operating off the 'gods exist and grant spells' model, it never made sense that every cleric had access to the same spells with minor tweaks (domain spells), and that every god in the multiverse cared about undead. It makes no sense to me that a god of fire or a god of storms would grant healing spells ... that's simply not their gig.
So, here's my thought:
Take the domain lists; combine the lists of the main Domains and Subdomains. Go through the spell lists (of all classes) and see what other spells can fit under a Domain's umbrella, add those to the Domain List. There may well be spells that simply go away, if they don't fit under any domain, but that seems unlikely.
At 1st level, a cleric picks two Domains ... and those comprise his entire spell list (note that there will be more than 9 spells per Domain). Clerics retain all of their spell slots (combine domain slots with regular slots; a 1st level cleric will have 2 slots, Rather than 1+D, plus bonus for Wisdom), and effectively know their entire spell list; they don't have to prepare spells in advance, and their only limit on spells known is what their Domains have on them.
The rules for Domain powers are unchanged; Subdomain Substitutions are allowed. The Favored Weapon rules remain the same. Channel Energy must use the 'Variant Channeling' rules. Spontaneous Healing is out.
Still thinking about ...
Making 'more fighty, less casty' and 'less fighty, more casty' archetypes.
Flavor-wise I like it a lot. But unless you give each domain a bigger spell list I think it would be a serious Nerf as is, especially if it loses Spontaneous Healing. Alternatively you could give them some sort of other buff to compensate for the lack of variety in spells, especially things that aren't on domain lists but are on the Cleric/Oracle list
I think you'll have to allow more than 2 domains for this. Taking Sarenrae as a random example, she grants Fire, Glory, Good, Healing and Sun. That's: Burning Hands, Shield of Faith, Prot v Evil, CLW, Endure Elements. Pick 2, which are likely to duplicate your domain powers and channeling to some extent. Very, very weak. And that's one of the best options.
It might work OK if you get ALL the domains (powers and spells) of that deity. And even then, a cleric of Gozreh would be utter rubbish (unless you like Obscuring Mist a lot).
I note that of the core deities, only 3 (Irori, Pharasma and Sarenrae) have Healing as a domain. You might need more healing.
Bear in mind also that they can now no longer use most wands and scrolls, so the rangers and paladins will be your main healers.
Ultimately, what you have here is not a replacement cleric: it's the bones of a new class (which might be quite viable, for the right deity).
Flavor-wise I like it a lot. But unless you give each domain a bigger spell list I think it would be a serious Nerf as is, especially if it loses Spontaneous Healing. Alternatively you could give them some sort of other buff to compensate for the lack of variety in spells, especially things that aren't on domain lists but are on the Cleric/Oracle list
"combine the lists of the main Domains and Subdomains. Go through the spell lists (of all classes) and see what other spells can fit under a Domain's umbrella, add those to the Domain List."
Covered. A Fire Domain cleric will have almost every Fire-descriptor spell in the game, for example.
I note that of the core deities, only 3 (Irori, Pharasma and Sarenrae) have Healing as a domain. You might need more healing.
This is the point. I don't think all clerics should have the ability to heal. Only clerics of those three gods SHOULD be healing anything.
Addendum: I'm already working on houserules to make magical healing nice but not necessary, but that seemed like a separate topic.
It might work OK if you get ALL the domains (powers and spells) of that deity. And even then, a cleric of Gozreh would be utter rubbish (unless you like Obscuring Mist a lot).
I actually agree about the spell access, but all Domains' powers would be a little extreme, IMHO (i think getting powers of two Domains of choice is still reasonable). And about subdomains' spells: i have the impression that many subdomains just replace something like three spells on average, and that would still limit the cleric's options in a radical way.
Addendum: I'm already working on houserules to make magical healing nice but not necessary, but that seemed like a separate topic.
I'm quite interested on this topic... :)
Either people are not reading closely, or I am not comprehending the responses correctly.
"combine the lists of the main Domains and Subdomains. Go through the spell lists (of all classes) and see what other spells can fit under a Domain's umbrella, add those to the Domain List."
Gozreh would get any spells I see linked to Air, Animal, Plant, Water, and Weather off every spell list. Just for first level spells, and skimming the list(s) without thinking about it much...
Ant Haul
Blend
Endure Elements
Jump
Keen Senses
Touch of the Sea
Feather Fall
Read Weather
Summon Nature's Ally
Deadeye's Lore
Air Bubble
Alter Winds
Aspect of the Falcon
Entangle
.. screw it, let's just say 'like, a quarter of the druid list'.
and so forth.
If the cleric of Gozreh can't cast the Remove X spells and Restoration it doesn't matter what is on his list. He's not preventing the party from also needing a cleric of Sarenrae, Pharasma, or Irori.
1. Ability Damage is something I intend to address with the my houserules on healing.
2. This isn't inherently a bad thing, as it means you can have two or more clerics in the party and they'll most likely play completely differently.
It might work OK if you get ALL the domains (powers and spells) of that deity. And even then, a cleric of Gozreh would be utter rubbish (unless you like Obscuring Mist a lot).I actually agree about the spell access, but all Domains' powers would be a little extreme, IMHO (i think getting powers of two Domains of choice is still reasonable). And about subdomains' spells: i have the impression that many subdomains just replace something like three spells on average, and that would still limit the cleric's options in a radical way.
Addendum: I'm already working on houserules to make magical healing nice but not necessary, but that seemed like a separate topic.I'm quite interested on this topic... :)
it's still in the initial stages, but it's looking a lot like a Wounds and Vitality system with making resting work faster (if you rest, you recover ability damage in say hours instead of days).
It is inherently a bad thing, as it means every party must contain a cleric of one of three specific deities.If the cleric of Gozreh can't cast the Remove X spells and Restoration it doesn't matter what is on his list. He's not preventing the party from also needing a cleric of Sarenrae, Pharasma, or Irori.1. Ability Damage is something I intend to address with the my houserules on healing.
2. This isn't inherently a bad thing, as it means you can have two or more clerics in the party and they'll most likely play completely differently.
No, it doesn't, because as I said, I'm also making houserules to make magical healing Nice But Not Necessary(tm). Ideally, a party will not NEED a cleric at all.
(If I've never mentioned how much I hate 'who gets stuck playing the cleric' syndrome before, let me say ... I HATE 'who gets stuck playing the cleric' syndrome.)
If the cleric gets domain powers from two domains and domain spells from all their diety's domains then I could try this out. I'd probably keep spontaneous casting because of band aid cleric.
I would use this in my game if you made it available. I would also probably work out some special extra domain powers for each deity.
Maybe every deity has their own type of channeled energy.
There is domain based channeling.
Nice topic. I'm interested in your hr about hit points,as in my experience I never found a good system. Vitality and wound from ua 3.5 was a pain (rapidly going letal) so if you find a good way to make healing NBNN (tm), it would be really nice.
hmmm I like the idea but that's a lot of work to essentially create an entirely new class. A simpler solution to let fire clerics cast more fire spells (for example) would just be to let them prepare domain spells in non-domain slots.