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I'm a little bit confused about how the Summoner's spell list interacts with wand creation. Wands are only supposed to allow up to 4th level spells, but Summoners uniquely make lv5+ spells as lv4.
Does this mean all those higher level spells are actually considered lv4? Or, does it mean that such wands exist but every maker of them has been a Summoner? Can other spellcasters use the wands even though their version of the spell is higher level?
Example:
Teleport
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4, magus 5, witch 5; Domain travel 5; Bloodline abyssal 7, arcane 7
Summon Stampede
School conjuration (summoning); Level cleric/oracle 6, druid 6, summoner 4
Stoneskin, Communal
School abjuration; Level alchemist 5, druid 6, inquisitor 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4
Wall of Stone
School conjuration (creation) [earth]; Level cleric/oracle 5, druid 6, magus 5, sorcerer/wizard 5, summoner 4; Domain earth 5
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Honestly, it seems a bit cheesy to be able to build the Great Wall of Alarox by spamming "Wall of Stone".
I don't have an answer to your question, but I am interested in knowing the answer.
I'm also interested in knowing how wands made by Summoners are priced. Are they priced the same as Bard wands since they are both spell casters which get up to 6th level spells.
Well I found the answer to the base price question for summoner wands, and its based on caster level at which the spells can be cast. Without looking closely at the spell progression of bards and summoners I believe its the same so the cost would be the same.
And, according to some other things I've read the RAW answer is you can make a wand of these spells as 4th level spells and anyone with the spell on their spell list could use the wand without a UMD check. I'm not sure if this is really intended though.
Another issue is spells like haste. It is normally a 3rd level spell and wizards gain access to it at 5th level (and caster level). For summoners its a 2nd level spell and they get access to it as 4th level (and caster level).
This means the wizard makes a wand of haste for a base cost 11250. But a Summoner makes the wand as a 2nd level spell at 4th caster level, for 6000. But anyone with Haste on their spell list can use the wand.
Well, if the Summoner is a PC, then he makes the item according to the rules. But for found treasure/NPC created items, I would probably just use the tables in the Core rulebook, which doesn't have Summoner on it. So the spell level would be assumed to be Wiz/Sor.
Well I found the answer to the base price question for summoner wands, and its based on caster level at which the spells can be cast. Without looking closely at the spell progression of bards and summoners I believe its the same so the cost would be the same.
And, according to some other things I've read the RAW answer is you can make a wand of these spells as 4th level spells and anyone with the spell on their spell list could use the wand without a UMD check. I'm not sure if this is really intended though.
Yeah, it seems a little off and probably an oversight.
Well, if the Summoner is a PC, then he makes the item according to the rules. But for found treasure/NPC created items, I would probably just use the tables in the Core rulebook, which doesn't have Summoner on it. So the spell level would be assumed to be Wiz/Sor.
The problem is the base cost is drastically different for the two. Given the guidelines, you should be able to buy a wand of haste made by a Summoner for 6000 gp and a wand of haste made by a Wizard for 11250 gp. The only difference between the two being that the Summoner version will last 4 rounds, and the Wizard version last 5 rounds. In an ideal market any their will be Summoners making wands of all the spells on their list that come at lower levels because they will be cheaper on the market despite doing virtually the same thing (1 round of difference doesn't make up for nearly double the cost).
While that is a problem, I don't know that it would affect an actual game very much.
If the PC is a Summoner, takes Craft Wand, then he makes it according to his rules. If he wants to buy the wand, he has to pay more since Summoner-crafted wands are presumably much rarer than Wizard-crafted ones.
If there is no PC Summoner, then crafting it or buying it are the same as they were before Summoner existed.
So, sure, a PC Summoner gets a discount to make the wand (3000 vs. 5625), but that's livable.
As for a RAW reason to deny a PC the purchase of a Summoner-crafted wand (not that I would need a reason, but anyway) generating Magic Items rules do not include the Summoner. So the Wand has to be Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard crafted when purchased.
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And, according to some other things I've read the RAW answer is you can make a wand of these spells as 4th level spells and anyone with the spell on their spell list could use the wand without a UMD check. I'm not sure if this is really intended though.
I believe this would be viable for a general game. In PFS those wands could only be made by a wizard, which is not possible, therefore could not be purchased unless a summoner-made wand appeared on a Chronicle.
Well, if the Summoner is a PC, then he makes the item according to the rules. But for found treasure/NPC created items, I would probably just use the tables in the Core rulebook, which doesn't have Summoner on it. So the spell level would be assumed to be Wiz/Sor.The problem is the base cost is drastically different for the two. Given the guidelines, you should be able to buy a wand of haste made by a Summoner for 6000 gp and a wand of haste made by a Wizard for 11250 gp. The only difference between the two being that the Summoner version will last 4 rounds, and the Wizard version last 5 rounds. In an ideal market any their will be Summoners making wands of all the spells on their list that come at lower levels because they will be cheaper on the market despite doing virtually the same thing (1 round of difference doesn't make up for nearly double the cost).
Lorewise, summonsers are almost vanishingly rare and somewhat ostracized, so that probably explains both the market issue and the lack of momentum addressing the issue. But yes, technically you should be able to get cheaper haste wands and wands of summon monster V.
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If you want a bit more cheese, look what a summoner can do if the take brew potion.
Potions of dimension door, greater invisibility and stoneskin weren't meant to exist in the game.
The price of a potion of haste will decrease too (that isn't bad thing as pricing a single target potion on the basis of a spell that affect multiple targets is a bit weird).
Compressing 8 levels of spells in a 6 level spell list was a very bad idea.
It would have worked better to give the summoner a 9 levels spell list with a reduced number of spells.
A Summoner can certainly make a wand of Teleport or Wall of Stone since those are 4th level spells for a Summoner. As Claxon said, Summoner wands would be priced as Bard wands.
In fact, situations like this already existed with the Bard, who often gets appropriately themed spells at a lower spell level than a Wizard would. For instance, Bards can make cheap wands of Fear. The save DC on wands is low, so Fear wands are only situationally useful, but there are probably more useful cases. For instance, a Ranger could make a potion of Strong Jaw since that's a 3rd level spell for Rangers. I think the Ranger potion would be even more highly sought after than the Summoner wands. Druids can make wands of Flamestrike too.
Getting thematically appropriately spells in lower level slots is nothing new. The availability of such items for sale in town is something up to the DM though. I'd say that generally if a Wizard or Cleric could make an item it should be priced for sale as though they had. That doesn't help for items a Wizard or Cleric couldn't craft, but I wouldn't deny a non-crafting Summoner the right to buy a wand of Lesser Rejuvenate Eidolon just because a Rogue somewhere might try to buy a potion of Greater Invisibility.
@Diego - The Summoner's spell list does seem a little weird, but I guess Paizo decided to give the class "Bard-like" casting and move a few thematically appropriate spells down a level rather than inventing a new spellcasting progression and moving a bunch of other spells up a level.
Compressing 8 levels of spells in a 6 level spell list was a very bad idea.
It would have worked better to give the summoner a 9 levels spell list with a reduced number of spells.
I was just thinking the exact same thing, they should have made the summoner a full caster with a greatly reduced amount of spell on their spell list.
I think the best way to run this is to simply say when crafting items you make the item at the cost of what it would cost a wizard/cleric/druid of the desired caster level or as your class and caster level, whichever is more expensive. This would make the minimum cost effectively whatever a wizard can craft things at (and they would use the minimum caster level the wizard can cast the spell at).
@Claxon - What about a scroll of Summon Eidolon for a Summoner or a wand of Blistering Invective for a Bard though? Those are both spells which aren't on the W/C/D spell lists. Should we assume that Wizards would get them at the same spell level? 1 spell level higher? not at all? It seems like a lot of questions to answer rather than just letting the PC use their feat. As for items purchased in settlements I agree with maintaining the higher "standard" price.
The table is there to be easy to read at a glance, but they give the formula that is used to create the table below. Finding the cost for new casting classes creating magic items can be done by using the rules given.
To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand: 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.
Bolded relevant bit for emphasis.
Personally, I dont have a problem with it, as in my game I'd be shocked if a summoner actually took a crafting feat, and the DM decides whats available for sale. I would only allow people to buy wants and scrolls made by 9 level casters. If you want to craft it yourself, go for it, otherwise its a wizard or cleric's creation as they are the ones who sit around making these things in my world (or possibly an alchemist if its a potion).
This is also not a new thing. As stated earlier... Bards already had early spell access. So do Paladins and Rangers. As far as the new classes go... Inquisitors, Summoners, and Magus have early spell access. 6th level casters generally get access to spells at the same level a full caster would for some spells. The only advantage this provides comes into play when you are looking at scrolls, potions, and wands. Im pretty sure its intended. Or at least accepted.
The table is there to be easy to read at a glance, but they give the formula that is used to create the table below. Finding the cost for new casting classes creating magic items can be done by using the rules given.
To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. The cost for the materials is subsumed in the cost for creating the wand: 375 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster. Wands are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.Bolded relevant bit for emphasis.
I think everyone understands how the rules work, but this is exactly the rule that allows certian classes to craft items that are cheaper than what a Wizard/Cleric Druid could craft them at. Thats what I have a problem with.
As far as addressing spells that don't exist on full caster spell list, then yes it makes sense to utilize the caster level and spell level from the class the spell is from. I'm only trying to address the prescence of spells in lower level spell slots than what full casters can access them and how this affects the price of the item.
So, what exactly is the objection to allowing a summoner (or bard or ranger or whatever) to create wands (or potions or whatever) more cheaply than a cleric or wizard? What exactly does it do to break the game?
So, what exactly is the objection to allowing a summoner (or bard or ranger or whatever) to create wands (or potions or whatever) more cheaply than a cleric or wizard? What exactly does it do to break the game?
Crafting is already a pretty broken aspect of the game, allowing it to become easier to make items that are more effective just isn't something I care for. I also play with a couple of really bad power gamers, and if you don't set some hard limits they try to abuse every loop hole in the book.
If a PC wants to expend the feats.... by all means allow it. It will not break the game, and if they want to expend the resources to build a Spell level 4 wand with a spell you normally can't have a wand of... there is a built-in limitation mechanic, wealth by level. If players are buying these they aren't buying other items and it will all work out in the end, don't lose sleep.
But players should not expect anything except the 'basics' at 'ye olde magic shoppe'. Just because it can exist doesn't mean it is on sale and available.
Long story short, crafting PC yes, shopping PC no.
I think it depends. We currently have a summoner in our party who is well, a summoner. Even though he doesn't have the crafting feats, in order to balance the party's power, other party members should have access to the benefits of the summoner's spell list. That is why my alchemist is going to buy a potion of stoneskin. If you allow the summoner class in your game, with it comes the spellist imo.
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Under this logic we would have a Magus with 3/4 BAB progression and 9 levels of spells.Compressing 8 levels of spells in a 6 level spell list was a very bad idea.
It would have worked better to give the summoner a 9 levels spell list with a reduced number of spells.
I was just thinking the exact same thing, they should have made the summoner a full caster with a greatly reduced amount of spell on their spell list.
I think the best way to run this is to simply say when crafting items you make the item at the cost of what it would cost a wizard/cleric/druid of the desired caster level or as your class and caster level, whichever is more expensive. This would make the minimum cost effectively whatever a wizard can craft things at (and they would use the minimum caster level the wizard can cast the spell at).
A magus don't have any 8th level spell masquerading as a 6th level spell. AFAIK the magus hasn't any spell in is spell list with a casting level lower that that of the same spell in the wizard/sorcerer list. (not even greater dispel magic, that is a 6th level spell for the bard and summoner).
A bard as a few spell at a lower caster level but they have a strong thematic link with the class.
The summoner get plenty of spell at a lower spell level and a good percentage of them have nothing to do with summoning.
What is the link between being a guy that summon creatures from other planes and: Baleful Polymorph, Charm monster, Daze monster, dimension door, Fire Shield, Greater invisibility, Haste, Locate Creature, Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Reduce Person, Minor Creation, Slow, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wind wall, bear's endurance (mass), bull's strength (mass), cat's grace (mass), eagle's splendor (mass), fox's cunning (mass), Hold Monster, Magic Jar, major creation, overland flight, owl's wisdom (mass), planar binding (lesser), teleport, wall of stone, Banishment, Creeping Doom, Ethereal Jaunt, Heroism, Greater, Mass Invisibility, repulsion, Simulacrum, Spell Turning, Greater Teleport, Wall of Iron, Antipathy, Mass Charm Monster, Discern Location, Dominate Monster, Incendiary Cloud, Protection from Spells, Sympathy, Teleportation Circle
I can accept dimensional anchor, Black tentacles, contact other plane, insect plague, mage's faithful hound, greater dispel magic, planar binding, Sequester, Binding, Dimensional Lock, Maze, Greater Planar Binding, Greater and getting the various summoning spells 1 or 2 levels earlier, but this guy get:
- several enchantment spells at the same level or at a lower lever than a bard, he even get enchantment spells that the bard don't get;
- evocation spells at a lower lever than a evoker;
- necromancy spells at a lower lever than a necromancer,
- abjurations spells at a lower lever than a abjurer
- divination spells at a lower lever than a diviner
- illusions spells at a lower lever than a illusionist
So, exactly, who isn't he trumping with his spell list?
Disregarding the cantrips a summoner has 137 spells in the list published in the APG. 63 of those are spell that he get as lower level spells than other classes 8an I haven't counted a few spells that he get at the same level of the cleric but at a lower level than a wizard).
That is a balanced sell list?
For a comparison, in the CRB, a bard get 17 spells as lower level spells (almost all enchantment or illusions) than a full caster, 2 at an higher level, out of a total of 144.
45% of the spell list for the summoner, 12% for the bard.
BTW, dominate monster is a 9th level spell, so the summoner has 9 spell levels compressed in a 6 levels spell list.
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This is also not a new thing. As stated earlier... Bards already had early spell access. So do Paladins and Rangers. As far as the new classes go... Inquisitors, Summoners, and Magus have early spell access. 6th level casters generally get access to spells at the same level a full caster would for some spells. The only advantage this provides comes into play when you are looking at scrolls, potions, and wands. Im pretty sure its intended. Or at least accepted.
Please, cite the spell that the magus get at a lower spell level than the wizard, I will like to get it.
Binding, Greater and getting the various summoning spells 1 or 2 levels earlier, but this guy get:
- several enchantment spells at the same level or at a lower lever than a bard, he even get enchantment spells that the bard don't get;
- evocation spells at a lower lever than a evoker;
- necromancy spells at a lower lever than a necromancer,
- abjurations spells at a lower lever than a abjurer
- divination spells at a lower lever than a diviner
- illusions spells at a lower lever than a illusionist
So, exactly, who isn't he trumping with his spell list?
are you listing spell level arbitrarily, or is this list spells that a summon gets at a lower character level than the indexed specialist?
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are you listing spell level arbitrarily, or is this list spells that a summon gets at a lower character level than the indexed specialist?
Binding, Greater and getting the various summoning spells 1 or 2 levels earlier, but this guy get:
- several enchantment spells at the same level or at a lower lever than a bard, he even get enchantment spells that the bard don't get;
- evocation spells at a lower lever than a evoker;
- necromancy spells at a lower lever than a necromancer,
- abjurations spells at a lower lever than a abjurer
- divination spells at a lower lever than a diviner
- illusions spells at a lower lever than a illusionist
So, exactly, who isn't he trumping with his spell list?
At lower spell level. Exactly the problem with crafting feats.
A summoner get some of those spells at a lower character level, but what matter most is that he get them at a lower spell level without any reason for that benefit, beside compressing a 9 levels spell list in a 6 level spells class.
Under this logic we would have a Magus with 3/4 BAB progression and 9 levels of spells.Compressing 8 levels of spells in a 6 level spell list was a very bad idea.
It would have worked better to give the summoner a 9 levels spell list with a reduced number of spells.
I was just thinking the exact same thing, they should have made the summoner a full caster with a greatly reduced amount of spell on their spell list.
I think the best way to run this is to simply say when crafting items you make the item at the cost of what it would cost a wizard/cleric/druid of the desired caster level or as your class and caster level, whichever is more expensive. This would make the minimum cost effectively whatever a wizard can craft things at (and they would use the minimum caster level the wizard can cast the spell at).
A magus don't have any 8th level spell masquerading as a 6th level spell. AFAIK the magus hasn't any spell in is spell list with a casting level lower that that of the same spell in the wizard/sorcerer list. (not even greater dispel magic, that is a 6th level spell for the bard and summoner).
A bard as a few spell at a lower caster level but they have a strong thematic link with the class.
The summoner get plenty of spell at a lower spell level and a good percentage of them have nothing to do with summoning.
What is the link between being a guy that summon creatures from other planes and: Baleful Polymorph, Charm monster, Daze monster, dimension door, Fire Shield, Greater invisibility, Haste, Locate Creature, Mass Enlarge Person, Mass Reduce Person, Minor Creation, Slow, Stoneskin, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Wind wall, bear's endurance (mass), bull's strength (mass), cat's grace (mass), eagle's splendor (mass), fox's cunning (mass), Hold Monster, Magic Jar, major creation, overland flight, owl's wisdom (mass), planar binding (lesser), teleport, wall of stone, Banishment,...
Summoning is focused around conjuration and enchantment. A Summoner is therefore focused around conjuration and enchantment, so it makes sense for their spells to be, well, focused around conjuration and enchantment.
The Summoner itself doesn't do much in combat, so it has a number of utility spells and buffs thrown in as well. I don't see much that thematically clashes with a planar-attuned spellcaster who focuses on summoning and manipulating/augmenting said creatures.
Playing as a Summoner (unless you go for a mounted role or high-dexterity archery) is pretty much just buffing people and controlling your eidolon, minus to occasional AoE spell like Tar Pool, Acid Pit, Wall of Fire, Stampede.
I would actually prefer to have higher level spells for the higher DC (besides this bonus to making wands). Also, power curve:
If our first level spells are the same (me summoner, you sorcerer for example), but you get more of them, and then at max level my 6th level spells are the same power as your 9th level spells, then obviously the scale is not in the favor of the Summoner. If the scale was the same throughout where my 1st level spells were like your 3rd level, then it would be broken.
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Summoning is focused around conjuration and enchantment. A Summoner is therefore focused around conjuration and enchantment, so it makes sense for their spells to be, well, focused around conjuration and enchantment.
The Summoner itself doesn't do much in combat, so it has a number of utility spells and buffs thrown in as well. I don't see much that thematically clashes with a planar-attuned spellcaster who focuses on summoning and manipulating/augmenting said creatures.
Playing as a Summoner (unless you go for a mounted role or high-dexterity archery) is pretty much just buffing people and controlling your eidolon, minus to occasional AoE spell like Tar Pool, Acid Pit, Wall of Fire, Stampede.
Have you read the list?
What is the thematic link between magic jar and summoning?
Mass charm?
Discern location?
and so on.
Why a class whose focus is summoning must get better enchanting spells than a bard? (Dominate Monster)
A summoner get some of those spells at a lower character level, but what matter most is that he get them at a lower spell level without any reason for that benefit, beside compressing a 9 levels spell list in a 6 level spells class.
I don't consider that to be a big problem.
The 'internal balance' should be within a party of similar-leveled characters. The summoner is getting the same spells at about the same character level in order to preserve the relevance of his spell list, not as some fantastic boon.
in user the spells with saves are easier for the enemies, and the summoner ends up with fewer spell levels of resources to pull from, so to cast these spells (with a limited spells known list) they are depleting other options more quickly.
I think the 'normal' classes are still superior casters, and the small benefit of some spells showing up as lower spell lever/ easier to craft an item with, is a small issue that should only come up if a PC is crafting.
Please, cite the spell that the magus get at a lower spell level than the wizard, I will like to get it.This is also not a new thing. As stated earlier... Bards already had early spell access. So do Paladins and Rangers. As far as the new classes go... Inquisitors, Summoners, and Magus have early spell access. 6th level casters generally get access to spells at the same level a full caster would for some spells. The only advantage this provides comes into play when you are looking at scrolls, potions, and wands. Im pretty sure its intended. Or at least accepted.
Walk through Space. Just saying.
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Walk through Space. Just saying.Please, cite the spell that the magus get at a lower spell level than the wizard, I will like to get it.This is also not a new thing. As stated earlier... Bards already had early spell access. So do Paladins and Rangers. As far as the new classes go... Inquisitors, Summoners, and Magus have early spell access. 6th level casters generally get access to spells at the same level a full caster would for some spells. The only advantage this provides comes into play when you are looking at scrolls, potions, and wands. Im pretty sure its intended. Or at least accepted.
Thanks, never noticed it. Any other example? or we will stay with less than 1% of his spell list?
BTW, the summoner get it as a level 6 spell, too.
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A summoner get some of those spells at a lower character level, but what matter most is that he get them at a lower spell level without any reason for that benefit, beside compressing a 9 levels spell list in a 6 level spells class.
I don't consider that to be a big problem.
The 'internal balance' should be within a party of similar-leveled characters. The summoner is getting the same spells at about the same character level in order to preserve the relevance of his spell list, not as some fantastic boon.
in user the spells with saves are easier for the enemies, and the summoner ends up with fewer spell levels of resources to pull from, so to cast these spells (with a limited spells known list) they are depleting other options more quickly.
I think the 'normal' classes are still superior casters, and the small benefit of some spells showing up as lower spell lever/ easier to craft an item with, is a small issue that should only come up if a PC is crafting.
So, if the classes wit a 6 levels spell list should get the same spells at the same character level, where is the 3 level wall of fire or wall of ice for the magus?
The summoner get those two evocation earlier, but a class dedicated to evocation spells don't. "Perfectly logic"
Personally, I dont have a problem with it, as in my game I'd be shocked if a summoner actually took a crafting feat, and the DM decides whats available for sale. I would only allow people to buy wants and scrolls made by 9 level casters. If you want to craft it yourself, go for it, otherwise its a wizard or cleric's creation as they are the ones who sit around making these things in my world (or possibly an alchemist if its a potion).
A summoner doesn't need the feat. He just needs a friend with the feat and he provides the spell each day while his friend makes the wand.
That friend can be a NPC, or even a PC item crafter if the party wizard gets tired of Fireball wands and wants something with a bit more Oomph.
Yes the Summoner gets more spells at a lower level. I agree that they should have been a 9th level caster with a limited spell list.
1. Why do they get the spells they get? They are a utility spell caster. All of their spells dont have to be about summoning. They are specialized in Conjuration and Enchantment as another poster stated.
2. Why do they get spells at a lower spell level? They gain access to most of their spells at the same CHARACTER level as a Wizard/Sorc would gain them. To accomplish this they have to gain them at an earlier SPELL level. For instance they gain 4th level spells at around the same time a Wizard gains 5th level spells. So their list contains some 5th level spells at a lower level.
3. Why do Summoners get special treatment! They dont. Thats my point. Several other classes have early spell access. They will still gain access to the spells at the same Character level as a 9th lvl caster in most cases.
4. What advantages does this provide? Very little. They will have access at the same time as a straight caster will. Because its in a lower spell level slot it will have a lower spell DC in most cases. Because they are only 6th level casters they have less spell slots to begin with. The only advantage is with Item creation. Wands, scrolls, ect.
How I would deal with this:
Let them take the item creation feats if they want.
1. If they try and sell said item it should sell for what a wand of that spell level sells for... no matter what level the spell usually is.
2. The lower lvl wands should not be available for purchase. Summoners and other hybrids are rare... and crafters are even more rare. Only allow players to purchase wands at the appropriate level a wizard would cast the spell.
3. Let the player enjoy having cheaper wands. Its a boon of the class. As long as he isn't trying to game the system by making money off his wands then he is expending resources and feats to gain a benefit just like a full caster would.
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3. Why do Summoners get special treatment! They dont. Thats my point. Several other classes have early spell access. They will still gain access to the spells at the same Character level as a 9th lvl caster in most cases.
Find another class with 45% of his starting spell list made of spells with a lower spell level when compared with full spellcasters.
The bard get about 12%, the magus 1% (and that spell isn't part of his starting spell list).Without counting all the spells, the alchemist and the inquisitor seem to have less lower level spells than the bard.
45% vs 12% or less is special treatment, with a cherry on top.
4. What advantages does this provide? Very little. They will have access at the same time as a straight caster will. Because its in a lower spell level slot it will have a lower spell DC in most cases. Because they are only 6th level casters they have less spell slots to begin with. The only advantage is with Item creation. Wands, scrolls, ect.
That would be true if their main power were their spells. Their main power is the eidolon. Getting almost the full power of a pure spellcaster plus a fully customizable pet allow them to overshadow several classes at the same time in their specialization.
Walk through Space. Just saying.Please, cite the spell that the magus get at a lower spell level than the wizard, I will like to get it.This is also not a new thing. As stated earlier... Bards already had early spell access. So do Paladins and Rangers. As far as the new classes go... Inquisitors, Summoners, and Magus have early spell access. 6th level casters generally get access to spells at the same level a full caster would for some spells. The only advantage this provides comes into play when you are looking at scrolls, potions, and wands. Im pretty sure its intended. Or at least accepted.
Thanks, never noticed it. Any other example? or we will stay with less than 1% of his spell list?
BTW, the summoner get it as a level 6 spell, too.
I'm not doubting the fact that the summoner gets vastly more of a discount than the magus, moreso pointing out the fact that they do exist. Personally, I think the magus should have a discounted 6 level list just like the summoner's, except with "battle spells" like polar ray discounted, but that's another conversation.
I'm not even going to touch on item creation, because of how GM subjective and powerful it is in general. For daily use of the spells, though, the summoner rarely, if ever, gets a spell more than a level ahead of the wizard. For example, dominate monster, a cited example above, is obtained at 16 for summoner and 17 for wizard. So, the summoner does it it one level earlier, but you know what this doesn't take into account, ironically enough? Spell level. Wizards cast dominate monster as a 9th level spell, which means their DC will be a full 3 points higher, the equivalent of 3 feats. That's even before the benefits of school specialization.
Out of flavor? I completely disagree. See how many charm/hold/dominate person effects the summoner gets? None. See how many charm/hold/dominate monster effects the summoner gets? All three. A character focused around commanding a horde of summoned monsters to do his bidding and forming a bond with an outsider being able to command and bind monsters? Perfect flavor sense. Same with many of the conjuration spells, and even evocation spells, as I don't see summoning walls of fire being crazy for a summoner. Yes, the summoner gets spells at a lower level as a general rule, but with a limited spells selection and most important, lower spells levels, his DCs will never be as good. The bard is a bad comparison because the bard has a large focus on combat, buffing and skills as well, and due to the lower scaling of the level 6 lists he's better off with performances anyway for enchantments. And the bard can even trade in their knowledge skills for both spell focus: enchantment feats, so they even have a feat advantage over the summoner. All they lose is dominate monster, and that doesn't come until 16th level.
Find another class with 45% of his starting spell list made of spells with a lower spell level when compared with full spellcasters.
The bard get about 12%, the magus 1% (and that spell isn't part of his starting spell list).Without counting all the spells, the alchemist and the inquisitor seem to have less lower level spells than the bard.
45% vs 12% or less is special treatment, with a cherry on top.
Whether its 45% or 1%... it doesn't really matter. The precedent was set for discounted spells a long time ago with bard. That was my point. Its nothing new or special. Do they get more... sure. Debating if that is a good thing or bad thing is pointless. The original question was about wands. My point is that wands of "discounted" spells could be made way back in 3.0 and it has never really caused an issue imo.
That would be true if their main power were their spells. Their main power is the eidolon. Getting almost the full power of a pure spellcaster plus a fully customizable pet allow them to overshadow several classes at the same time in their specialization.
Now your really getting off topic but I probably baited that response... so my bad. Whether the Summoner if overpowered or not based on his spellcasting has nothing to do with the topic(Personally I find them to be just fine as is). Wands of dicounted spells was the original question. My point was that it has little impact as long as they are used by the summoner and not for some cheesy gold scheme.