Official Ruling on Knowledge Checks Please.

[thejeff]

pauljathome wrote:

Andrew Christian wrote:

"hey, knowing what the creature is, its type, and that it has construct traits is fairly useful info."

One of my issues with knowledge checks is that sometimes just telling the players WHICH knowledge check to make gives too much information. Some monsters deliberately look like something that they aren't.

And even telling the players that (explicitly or implicitly by asking them to roll multiple checks) gives some information away.

Note:some players take advantage of metagame knowledge. Some try so hard not to that they harm themselves. None totally ignore it since they're humans and we pretty much can NOT just ignore information.

Its one thing I really like about online play. Most players have a know-stuff macro that automatically shows every knowledge skill.

One reason that many of my characters have identical skills in all knowledge's :-)

It's a bit more work for the GM, but it's easy enough to have a list of the PCs Know skills and just ask them to roll and apply the appropriate modifier yourself.

[Sarta]

Michael VonHasseln wrote:

As a GM, I usually allow the player to ask for a specific bit of information for each +5 success exceeding the DC...

GM: "Okay, you rolled a 32. That allows for 5 specific questions to be asked."
Player:"Does it have a specific DR?"
GM: "Yes. It is DR/silver and good
Player: Does it have any Defensive abilities?"
GM: Yes. Do you want to know the first one only and then move on, or do you want all of them?"
Player: Hell, yeah! Give me all of them!"
GM: "There are four... that will use up all of your Knowledge bonus."
Player: "Um... can I just get the first two and then the first teo Offensive abilities?"
GM: "Yes. It has..."

That is how I adjudicate it. Other GMs might do it differently. Your mileage may vary. Expect Table Variation.

Here's my problem with this method: what if the creature's a Basilisk and they only succeed enough to get two questions?

Does it have DR? No
Does it have any special defenses? No

The first piece of information I offer is the information that the creature is known for:

Harpies enchant folks with song. Basilisks turn people to stone. So do medusas and cockatrices. Rust monsters destroy and eat metal objects. Wights drain life energies. Hell hounds breath fire. Trolls regenerate.

These are the first thing anyone should know about these creatures -- not necessarily if they have spell resistance or DR.

[thejeff]

Will Johnson wrote:

Michael VonHasseln wrote:

As a GM, I usually allow the player to ask for a specific bit of information for each +5 success exceeding the DC...

GM: "Okay, you rolled a 32. That allows for 5 specific questions to be asked."
Player:"Does it have a specific DR?"
GM: "Yes. It is DR/silver and good
Player: Does it have any Defensive abilities?"
GM: Yes. Do you want to know the first one only and then move on, or do you want all of them?"
Player: Hell, yeah! Give me all of them!"
GM: "There are four... that will use up all of your Knowledge bonus."
Player: "Um... can I just get the first two and then the first teo Offensive abilities?"
GM: "Yes. It has..."

That is how I adjudicate it. Other GMs might do it differently. Your mileage may vary. Expect Table Variation.

Here's my problem with this method: what if the creature's a Basilisk and they only succeed enough to get two questions?

Does it have DR? No
Does it have any special defenses? No

The first piece of information I offer is the information that the creature is known for:

Harpies enchant folks with song. Basilisks turn people to stone. So do medusas and cockatrices. Rust monsters destroy and eat metal objects. Wights drain life energies. Hell hounds breath fire. Trolls regenerate.

These are the first thing anyone should know about these creatures -- not necessarily if they have spell resistance or DR.

If it's a basilisk, you ask about special attacks.

That's the only way I see the asking questions approach working. You use the Knowledge check as a way to get the useful information you know out of game into something you can justify using in character.

Of course it falls apart when the player doesn't know anything about the monster.

[Artanthos]

Ubercroz wrote:

But, by age 10 the average north american kid also has spent more time on youtube and wikipedia than a normal pathfinder character. Also, what we have in pathfinder is much different than just random animals walking around, the world the game is set in has more kinds of creatures in it than our world does, so there are more things to know and information is not as easy to access.

Trust me, it has nothing to do with computers.

When I was 10, the internet did not exist and I had never seen a computer. I, and any of my friends, could have easily identified a bear.

[Bruno Breakbone]

Raan Deio, Oracle of Metal wrote:

Bruno Breakbone wrote:

Bruno, as a handsome and beautiful Terori, often makes Knowledge: Grapple checks for party.

GM: "An unholy wave of foul miasma washes across the party as the twisted, profane horror from beyond advances."

Bruno: "Bruno grapple."

Bruno rolls dice. Bruno succeeds.

Bruno: "Hey everyone, it can be grappled."

And sometimes Raan Deio makes Knowledge: Bruno checks to see if it could have been grappled if he'd spent a Ki point to suppress Freedom of Movement.

Bruno, as a handsome and beautiful Tetori, does not have ranks in Knowledge: Bruno as that much self-reflection, self-knowledge and meta-Brunoing could cause a rip in the space-time-grapple continuum, releasing a brunograpplestorm of such unbelievable power that it would destroy all the non-handsome, non-beautiful, non-tetoris in Golarion.

[Jayson MF Kip]

thejeff wrote:

Of course it falls apart when the player doesn't know anything about the monster.

This.

When you have to word your one question about the six-legged, incorporeal centaur-like thing that you identified with Know(Planes) like its an Abadarian marraige contract or wish granted by a glabrezu, it's a bit much.

[Chris Mortika]

For what it's worth, I don't really invite the players to ask questions.

I give critter name, type and subtype, which usually gives a lot of information.

If the die result is better than the minimum, I relate stories they've heard, or discussions they've had with other Pathfinder agents or friendly adventurers.

"It's a troll. Giant-type humanoid. [etc] You know that these things are practically unkillable, except under odd circumstances. And, according to one of the sailors you talked to last night, they really hate bardic music. "Two of them attacked us from the hold one night, and they was absolute fearless, except for Yasmir, our Ifrit bard. They kept well away from him."

"Ifrit, you say?"

[N N 959]

I don't do the question thing either, but I have nothing against GMs who use it. I generally look at the character who rolled the check and if possible make sure that what I do give is useful to that character. I also share the HD. At the very least someone should have an idea about how tough something is...but maybe I'll switch to CR as HD can too readily be translated into hit points.

However, what I do provide independent of the K. checks is a lot of info that I think a character would intuitively know.

1. After someone attacks two or more times, I share the AC based on the attack i.e. if you try a touch attack, i'll give the Touch AC.

2. I give info on the health status of the creature . Use colors to indicate % of hit points.

3. i always show rolls and modifiers because you'd instantly know if someone did a lot of damage from brute strength or because the blade was really sharp/magical or the NPC used a Feat.

4. I also share all feats that an NPC uses. I'm not aware of any RAW that prohibits this.

[GM Lamplighter]

Andrew Christian wrote:

While playing with the Winnipeg crew Sunday evening after Paizo Con (...)

Doh! I KNEW I shouldn't have left early!

[Talgeron]

What I usually do is give the name and subtype, then allow one extra question for every 5 by which they exceed the DC. As far as questions, I allow the players to ask me about one bit of bolded text, such as DR, immunities, energy resistances, weakest save, etc. I also encourage players to use the question, "what would my character most like to know about this creature?" I haven't had any complaints. However, I do have one player that is fond of asking, "What is this creature's organization?" or "What can you tell me about this creature's environment?" I'm pretty sure he's just being funny.

Additionally, the longer they fight something, the more information I give away. For example, if someone hits or misses by one, I'll generally give that info.

[kinevon]

Nick Greene wrote:

What I usually do is give the name and subtype, then allow one extra question for every 5 by which they exceed the DC. As far as questions, I allow the players to ask me about one bit of bolded text, such as DR, immunities, energy resistances, weakest save, etc. I also encourage players to use the question, "what would my character most like to know about this creature?" I haven't had any complaints. However, I do have one player that is fond of asking, "What is this creature's organization?" or "What can you tell me about this creature's environment?" I'm pretty sure he's just being funny.

Additionally, the longer they fight something, the more information I give away. For example, if someone hits or misses by one, I'll generally give that info.

I'll do questions, including the one at making the DC, give the creature name and type info as a freebie, and, as the combat progresses, in order to remind myself that RP is what we are supposed to be doing, try to describe the combat colorfully, with misses or hits being noted as how well or how close they were.

"Your sword cuts through the air, and you thought, for a moment, it hit, but you realize that it bounced off the creature's thick skin." as an example.

[Fromper]

Just realized that I've posted several times in this thread, but never stated my own approach to giving out info as a GM.

If the players hit the DC, I give them the basic name, type, and if there's something that the creature is specifically known for, I'll mention it.

ie "It's a troll. They're known for regenerating unless burned. If you wanted to know if other types of energy besides the obvious fire can prevent their regeneration, you'd have needed to roll DC +5, instead of just the DC."

Beyond that, I'll ask them what type of info they want. I don't play the specific question wording game to trick them into wasting questions, though. I try to make sure they get something useful for every question they ask me, sometimes giving out more than I probably should based on the "one useful piece of information" guideline. So if something has resistance to 3 types of energy, and they ask about resistances, they'll get all 3, not one at a time. So anyone who breaks the DC by enough for 3 or 4 questions will probably get everything there is to know, unless it's a really oddball creature with tons of weird details.

[Mark Stratton]

Fromper wrote:

I don't play the specific question wording game to trick them into wasting questions, though.

Exactly. The "don't be a jerk rule" applies to GMs, too.