Love the idea of it dying off and coming back as an Archon. Brilliant. I vote to go with that idea, absolutely.
I'm not even sure it would have to die heroically. If you wanted more drama you could even have a rookie member of the crusades think they were "saving" the party and kill the demon. Oh the drama them paladins cause!
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I like the idea. My group just finished off the first book. I would allow them to attempt to redeem a demon. Then again the chose to take on a tiefling looter because he surrendered and shifted gears from looting to thinking things could be more fun with the party. They also decided to take in another looter who turned out to be a teenager and start training him to be a good fighter.
Finally the sorceress decided to redeem Faxon. She appealed to him with some sweet talk and worked to appeal to his insecurity about the rituals. After a few minutes he surrendered and agreed to let her continue the intriguing the dialogue.
The party intends to take Leadership to take in these people and redeem them fully or have them as cohorts. it makes for an intriguing game though.
You dress it like a Jawa! =^-^=
Let the PCs worry about that. Remind thm, if necessary, but let them come up with a solution. You'll be amazed.
And great paladin move. :)
Contributor
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I have too many ideas bouncing around in my head
Well...the game suggests a babau peaceably tries to exchange the artifact for something else.
But there's a line in the description that just let my mind go NUTS.
"When possessed by an evil creature, the Pauper’s Thighbone instead burdens its owner with the weight of his sins."
So my thought? Babau is tortured by grief, regret and remorse as a result of the Thighbone, and desperately wants to get rid of it so it cna be restored to its old demonic ways.
I'm hoping the players try to take advantage of the opportunity to redeem the babau...especially seeing as it will have class levels. What class, I haven't decided yet.
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Upon researching the problem, having a chaotic evil follower violates the paladin's code. I'm hardly going to enforce that right away, but yes, I can't see the dretch surviving contact with Irabeth and the people at Defender's Heart.
The new plan is to have Aravashnial use a /dismissal/ scroll from the Riftwarden cache (or, rather, have someone else use the scroll for him) when they get there, to peacefully send the dretch away without killing it.
They'll see it again in the Abyss later. Depending on how they've handled things in the interim, and the parting, that will be a good or a bad thing.
I'd actually avoid dismissing it. That would send the message to the players that it's a waste of time to bother redeeming any bad guy. Something like this is rare form from a player. Cherish and cultivate it and allow it to go. Believe me, you won't get a chance like this very often.
While the paladin code does restrict some about having evil cohorts, remember that they are trying to redeem this demon. I feel that since the paladin is actively trying to change the demon, it should be a non-issue.
I don't know. The way I run it demons are pure evil and chaos given physical form. It's not just a person that's been lead astray and needs to be shown the error of his ways. Outsiders are the embodiment of concepts and not whole beings like mortals. That's what makes mortals so special. To even begin to change a demon's fundamental nature would require something of cosmic significance imo. They wouldn't so easy question their ways just because you shows weakness (mercy).
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I don't know. The way I run it demons are pure evil and chaos given physical form. It's not just a person that's been lead astray and needs to be shown the error of his ways. Outsiders are the embodiment of concepts and not whole beings like mortals. That's what makes mortals so special. To even begin to change a demon's fundamental nature would require something of cosmic significance imo. They wouldn't so easy question their ways just because you shows weakness (mercy).
Umm... Arikiel... you are aware that this very AP sports a redeemed demon in a prominent role, aren't you?
Umm... Arikiel... you are aware that this very AP sports a redeemed demon in a prominent role, aren't you?
I'm not running or playing in the AP. So I don't really know anything beyond what's written on the back covers. Just sharing my view of how things work. Of course if angels can fall then demons can ascend. Seems like it should be a pretty massive deal though.
This seems like a great idea but my main problem comes from the fact that it seems way too quick to turn this Dretch around. So you're at the temple, and that's what? Session 2? And it's already praying to a Lawful Good god?
Demons are inherently evil by their very nature. I don't see a sudden shift like this as either, something that makes much sense, or something that makes for a very good story.
Redeeming a Demon of *any* description should be an act of legend, not something that's finished in a couple sessions.
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There's several ways to look at this. First, this is the lowest of the low for demons. This is the essence of chaotic evil people whose souls have been tortured and twisted until all elements of their humanity has vanished and then given a new form to continue its punishment through further torture. Also, this isn't even the most evil of a mortal. This is someone who barely qualifies as Chaotic Evil. The more evil individuals get turned into greater demons (or as an amalgam of a greater demon). As such, a dretch ascending isn't exactly that huge a deal. In fact, I'm willing to bet it happens periodically in the Abyss and that they're quickly hunted down and killed.
(In fact, this would be an excellent fate for this Dretch - for it to be targeted first by any demons up above. They can sense the "taint" on its essence and go after the "traitor" first because that's what they do. They feed on weakness and are intolerant of those who choose not to revel in chaos and insanity.)
Second, the characters are latent Mythic heroes. By showing the dretch a bit of charity and accepting that perhaps it could be redeemed... they are subconsciously manipulating events even before they become Mythic. This is their destiny.
Third, what does it say about our mindset that we're so accepting that an angel can fall... but that a demon or devil cannot ascend? I've talked to Christians who insist that Revelations insists the Devil will always choose damnation at the end of the world... while also insisting that up to that moment the Devil can choose not to be damned. Thus once you "Fall" you cannot ever be redeemed. This runs contrary to the very theme of the religion (agnostic here) and the belief that humanity is redeemable.
If we accept that the most lawful of lawful beings and the most good of good beings can Fall and become evil through torture or even free choice then we should accept likewise that the converse can occur. Demons can look at their existence and realize that maybe there is something better. Perhaps they can step outside their existence and choose a new fate and destiny.
Finally, this is Chuckg's campaign and he's allowing it to flow organically. This is the sign of a good GM. They roll with the punches and allow the players to do the unexpected and accept this. No doubt the players are absolutely taken with the idea of having started the redemption of a dretch. They may try something similar in the future. It may very well not work. But if they have fun while doing this? Then that is a good game. And they are embracing the spirit of Pathfinder as they play.
I'd actually avoid dismissing it. That would send the message to the players that it's a waste of time to bother redeeming any bad guy. Something like this is rare form from a player. Cherish and cultivate it and allow it to go. Believe me, you won't get a chance like this very often.It's not about redeeming any bad guy, so much as redeeming an outsider born out of chaos and evil. Redemption isn't for everyone, and evil outsiders certainly fit.
The fact that Arueshalae is mentioned as the rare demon that rises should make her the exception, not the norm.It seems that the particular dretch is an exception, if he can be talked into sincerely praying to a LG deity. Could an archon be talked into sincerely praying to a CE one?
Dretches have 2 hit dices, so they only need like 8 penances to become good, and this accounts for one.
Personally, this wouldn't have a chance to happen, unless I secretly rolled a 100 on a d100 to make redeeming a particular demon feasible in the first place...
If any demon can be redeemed, that's a pandora box that could become a burden rather than a boon. Is it right to kill demons on sight if there's a chance to redeem them?
Honestly, considering it's a lesser demon, I figured it'd be easily cowed and not as integrated into demonic society as demons higher up the hierarchy. Plus, the AP is all about redemption. Two demons redeemed out of the countless hordes of demons is still not the norm.
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I agree with Tangent on the issue, but everyone runs their game differently. I know my group embraces redemption, but it takes shaking them up to get them to view fiends or celestials as being capable of switching sides. So far they are embracing a lot of things and are warming up to the redemption even more heavily than usual. Mostly because I added in the incentive of allies if they pull off the redemption.
I like how Chuck is running his campaign. Also for all we know the dretch may have been a follower of Iomedae who slowly fell to evil. That would add a whole new layer as to why the dretch outprayed the two PCs and add more to why Iomedae is interested in the party.
Once they get topside, there will be a lot of opportunities to tempt the little guy. After all, a ruined city running amok with demons? Fun times!
One other interesting thing to consider is at the climax . . .
If Kreggal is accompanying the PCs to this point, having him be unharmed (or take severely reduced damage) by the explosion of the wardstone would be a significant sign of "he's well on the way of redemption".
In addition, it could be that exposure to the power of the wardstone, or having a wardstone fragment lodged into him, enables his redemption. Could also be a catalyst for if you want him to change to be a different, good-aligned planar being once redeemed. The PCs get mythic tiers, he begins to transform into a Lyrakien or something.
*Edit:* Or to build off of Flamehawke, the wardstone explosion could reawaken his memories and attitude from life when he was devoted to Iomedae
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Glad I could help a GM with more ideas. That is a good build on Scaevola. Too bad my players have not tried redeeming any demons yet. They did try to capture Jeslyn alive to attempt redeeming her. I'll have these ideas filed away for the next run as I am certain I will run it again some time in the future.
Pretty much. My players want this, and have passed up multiple opportunities to get out of this.
I'm going to have to work in opportunities later where the thing backslides (they haven't gotten it to nonevil alignment yet) or tries to, but so far it hasn't had much opportunity to and they've been pretty good about denying it chances to.
I think going with a pretty tremendous backslide is the way to go. You should really hit them with the difficulty of redeeming something that by it's very nature is *pure evil*. I think they would get *way* more out of it if they have to really work for it, and won't find it anywhere near as satisfying if it's over and done with in a couple sessions.
One other interesting thing to consider is at the climax . . .
This is an excellent idea.
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Dude let the little guy grow and become your paladins cohort or maybe even a 3rd option instead of the mount or weapon option for the paladin like that of the antipaladin. It would be awesome to see a dretch in Iomedean full plate saving the day and being slightly confused by all this "moral action" it finds itself performing.
Shouldn't the paladin not be allowed to have a CE follower/henchman?
Shouldn't the paladin not be allowed to have a CE follower/henchman?
Atonements would definitely be required at some point for consorting with an evil being, but since the goal is redemption of the evil creature that is all that should be required—so long as the paladin continues to follow the rest of the code properly and dismisses the dretch immediately should redemption prove impossible.
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Feros has it right. The paladin can associate with evil for the greater good if they have the same goal. They simply must seek an atonement periodically and he cannot have the dretch as a cohort unless it become LG.
I do agree an exception should be made if the paladin is actively trying to redeem the evil character or creature. That is considered a very impressive feat amongst paladins and clerics and this is AP is set up to have people who can be redeemed.
This is actually intriguing and I look forward to hear what happens with Kreggal.
However, yes, the paladin's life will be /far easier/ if by the time he links back up with the crew at Defender's Heart, he's gotten Kreggal at least chaotic neutral enough that he no longer reacts to a /detect evil/ (since, as an evil outsider, Kreggal still shows up on that even at a measly 2 HD). If not, even with Anevia's eyewitness testimony re: certain events to Irabeth, and Lord Horgus trapped by his own sense of honor into giving secular sanction to the paladin's decision, there's going to be some Diplomacy checks needed.
Just a heads-up: Unless you allow the Dretch to shed its evil subtype upon changing alignment, it will still ping as a 2HD evil outsider, regardless of its actual alignment.
I'm really loving how this situation is being played out and is continuing to evolve. My hats off to you Chuckg and your players for going down this redemption path and for how you're handling it!
Please keep us updated on how things go, I'm finding this greatly interested.
A succubus is a greater level of evil. The dretch is the lowest of the low. And if Belkar can make the shift from CE to CN (as is increasingly apparent in OotS) then a simple lowly dretch can! ;)
Sad thing is, there's a simple solution that harkens to Deus Ex Machina. Kill Kreggal. And award XPs for party members who roleplay sorrow at the death (and apparent damnation) of the demon. But hey, it keeps the game moving.
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Or have Kreggal go off on his own.. and start recruiting all kinds of people into an army that he brings to present to the party at some future point.. Kreggal being kinda confused bout these new ideas decides to recruit mortal rogues/thieves/assasins/cutthroats to use against enemies of his new friends.. works from the shadows.. you give a few hints now and then but never really bring him back to the fore-front of the tale.
Sorry, dude. I know my attempts to start up a WotR campaign never even got off the ground floor. I might get to run it in a few years when my current groups finish Runelords and Reign of Winter (assuming the latter group doesn't just die from inertia - we've had maybe six games this year and I've grown tired of being the one trying to get two of the players to do the game).
And it's a shame, because that whole plot with Kreggal was just so damn awesome. :( It's the sort of thing I'd love to have seen in my campaigns.
As a side note: If they still want to do a game, you could do one of two things. First, you could run a few low-level modules so they could get the hang of things. Alternatively... I'd recommend the Anniversary Edition of Rise of the Runelords. It's a rather enjoyable campaign and nicely affordable.
And if anyone Summons Monster for a Lantern Archon, have its name be Kreggal. =^-^=
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Indeed, Kreggal shall make an appearances.
I split my table in half.. it was way too much with a dozen.
ive got 5 heroes just starting book 3 and 7 4th level guys that are just about to go upstairs in grey garrison. I almost want to give them 5th level, I mean this second group is all less then 100xp away. Ill give them a chance to leave and rest up before though go upstairs. if they do so.. it will be the 2nd escalation, well 3rd if you count the one I skipped.
regardless. I am sorry to hear that it fell through for you. Perhaps you could host it play by post here, I am sure you can find gamers interested in playing.
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Appearance
At first glance you dont know quite what to make of him. He wears upon his head a rather unique mithril helmet. Itis shaped like a turban with a sunburst in gold etched upon the crown of his head coming down as though the sun is rising above his forehead. He wears the silken robes of an unwed Keleshite, well of the Cut anyway. The colors seem much more in place for a jungle then the desert, browns, greens, grays, greys, and black, in a pattern that almost makes you think would help one actually hide within a jungle. The robe is somewhat loose fitting, underneath it you can see an agile breastplate made of mithril, you can see a matching kilt of mithril as well around his waist. His wears sandals upon his feat, they appear to be made of raptor hide, for the scales on the bottom seems to give him better traction.
Over his left shoulder hangs a quiver that is closed, it is made of the molted hide of a serpent-folk. On his hip is a glass-steel scimitar whos hilt and guard are etched in gold and shaped like a sunburst. Leaning against the wall next to him is a tower shield made out of Mithril, it too is shaped and carved in the matter the Azlanti style. In the center of the shield is a sconce within that sconce is ever burning torch set to burn the color of golden red almost same shade as the sun as it crests across the desert sands.
I was born in Qadira, my father is important so you need to know about. I was the youngest son of over 100 other sons. I just turned 20 about six months ago. I have no idea me sisters I have all of were sent after there weaned were sent east to be rasied in the harems of the Padishah Emperor. I wish I knew any of them, but that not my father's ways.
My father traded horse, silk, hash, will he was a player upon the golden. As youngest son is given no responsibilities expected nothing of me was basically raised by my mother Janet was her name. I spent a lot of my spare time, while not just spare time it to stay busy when I was in study, with my father's guardsman working with the Smith learning their arts.
Father did not approve, said no set of mine in the labor force that's why we have all this, Gold. As punishment, he sent me with the caravans under the he thought was watchful eye my brother Samuel. Samuel was no idiot, soon as we left started teach me how to drive a wagon, Repair a wagon, even how to blow glass and gave me my Any-Tool.
When I turned 15, my father sent me to prove myself worthy of staying alive, I kid you not. All the way down by boat to Eleder I was sent with one of dads.. prized mares. I was to trade a cold-iron gem encrusted tower shield to a guard there for use of his stallion for stud. The ship sank, she tripped as I was leading her across the coral to land from the wreck, the priests and druid were ashore and drained of all healing powers, she fell into the water and none of us knew how to swim so she she was lost, as she had broken her legs in the falls. Needless to say I havnt returned to father to admit defeat. Being who and what he is, he may very well just kill me out of hand. I need to find at least as valuable of a racing horse as that foal would have been back to him, At the least. I dont know the first thing about horses other than how to ride them or drive a team of them. Animals can bairly handle being around me, im too colorful perhaps.. too shiny.
Well, we eventually found an old lighthouse and got it working to signal SOS. A pirate came, but was feeling generous, after we had bribed him rather well. Thankfully he could not read or just did not care about our journals and logs, for in the crate with them was hidden our treasures.
We finally made it to Eleder, and set forth to find these ruins. We had six choices of teams we could ally ourselves with. I thought the Society was the best choice. My companions ALL thought the Aspis Corporation had the best offer. They did not understand, once you sign onboard, you can never leave the corporation, not fully. I had naturally heard of them back in Qadira. Because of what we did, the new trade routes and such we created. We have been granted golden status down in the jungle, I bear my badge tattooed upon the left side of my neck, as do we all. Refusal was not an option if we did not want our throats slit.
I have three friends in two here who the number of times we have already saved each others lives is uncountable. The gnomish bard Gilek Aberwhinge of the ((())) within the Society of Pathfinders. And the half-elven Samurai Ishirou who is a fence for the Aspis Consortium here. The human female Sasha Nevah of the Red Mantis.
Some strange companions that I have. I know. But such is your fate when your ship runs aground upon the Smuggler's Shiv.
All of my arms and armor were forged within our caravan that we actually cut paths and roads through the jungle with the aid of the aspis corporation. Everything that is magical was either found within the ruins or created from the hides of the some of the beasts that we fought. That Stake I bear was found upon Issilar. It was the only thing that could slay the Shaitan Khalid-Shah, Every other weapon we had, he had disarmed.
In my time within the jungle, I have come closer to dyeing then anyone else I have ever heard or read of. I have been burned so much from fireballs that I am a Flame Tested Survivor, I have actually been risen once from the dead by the hand of a halfling and a long lost scroll we found in a cave, I have been knocked down to within a handfull of lifepoints (neg con) more than two score and ten times. That same halfling that brought me back from the dead, he liked to watch us battle in the red.. he claimed that we more efficient in battle the closer we were to meeting Sarenrae. I have even resisted the Ability of a Baykok to devour my soul.
Forgive me for being long-winded, but my tale is not a short one. Suffice it to say, I have made it here to Absalom. I got very proud of myself, of my ability to take a beating and defeat whatever was in front of my. I went into the ruins surrounding Absalom, thinking I dont know what.
I encountered something, I never did figure out what it was.
It touched me and I could not break the grapple for my life. It drained my very essense, I felt myself getting weaker, loosing skills, health and abilities. It seemed to feed upon my very life essense.
I had but one option. I had a ring upon my hand that was carved from the bones of the Genie, the Shaitan Khalid-Shah. It would grant me but one wish then it would no longer be magical.
“Khalid-Shah, I call the you debt due. Free me from this creature, that I am live. This I Wish.”
After I said that the ring started to glow as though the sun was rising. It became bright as daylight. A Lantern Archon appeared in the air above me from both of its hands come two rays of light, that looks suspiciously like the claw attacks of a Dretch. 'You no have this one. Go! Kreggal say Go!' Another sunburst goes off each time it says go, it doubles in size. This little Lantern Archen has been empowered somehow and is shining as brightly as a Star Archon. Whatever that undead creature was, it was destroyed in seconds as I still struggled to free myself. This Kreggal looked at me and smiled, before it faded away...
“Mortal, In punishment for binding a portion of my soul to that ring, I wish you forever more Cursed, you can never removed it, nor ring another ring upon that hand ever. No mortal hand will ever restore what was drained from you from this creature you dared Command ME!!! to destroy. Thus Wishes Khalid-Shah, First of the Shaitan.”
“And thus I came here, seeking to regain what was lost.. I am trying to find a purpose, I can promise if you allow me to stand by your side, I Will fall first. But if you ever lie to me or betray me, you will die or I will trying.”
Well, the point's moot. My players just voted and decided to scrap the game. Turns out the objecting player's real root objection was that after getting into it a bit, they didn't like the Wrath of the Righteous plot at all, and that learning the Pathfinder system (they hadn't played PF before) was turning out to be a chore.
Well, you can't object to that. First time in a new game system is a legitimate 'they might turn out not to like it' event. And so, my campaign wraps.
And somewhere out there, a little demonling finally made lantern archon. *g*
That is seriously disappointing. Your game sounds fantastic. Exactly the sort I would have loved to be in. Sad your players don't see it that way.