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Let us assume for the purposes of this discussion that the mythical evil GM exists.The term mythical infers there are no evil GMs. Coordinated events you don't get to pick your GMs that well, if at all.
If your GM follows the strictest reading of the guideline, you have up to 5 free actions.3, 2 if you want to talk, 1 if he thinks its entirely up to him. Obviously the 3rd is a bit of a stretch, but supposing he's not evil and doing what he considers right by following guidelines(doesn't mean a mythical evil entity), then its entirely possible to see 3. No?
Reloading each barrel of a double barrel is a free action of itself. May need to change those numbers. Its also pretty circumstantial to use a gun of the infinite sky or a magical glove that cost 10k.Double barrel is two shots, per hand for 4 shots.
reloading one 3 times is up to 7 shots.
Quick drawing another one is up 9 shots.
You still have a free action to quick draw yet another one, or glove of storing pull another one, etc...
5 free actions, no more than three of the same kind, as a GUIDELINE. You may want to read the FAQ you've been bashing for the last few days.
Crazy idea, I know.
The numbers work perfectly. I counted three barrels reloaded, not three guns.
Please actually check my math before you criticize it. I'm often wrong, but most people bother to make at least a little effort.
And yes, being able to fire 11 times against touch AC with a weapon that is X4 crit might require some investment.
Go figure.
So again, 4 shots to start, 3 in a reload, 2 free actions level to get two more guns and we are up to 11 attacks.
Again, in an absolute worst case scenario with the GM no one has shown in any way exists.
Mountain out of a molehill.
Usually when people use a double barrel they fire both barrels. Its against touch AC so the loss to hit isn't nearly that bad. Again, your still inferring that someone is using a glove and two pistols.
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Usually when people use a double barrel they fire both barrels. Its against touch AC so the loss to hit isn't nearly that bad. Again, your still inferring that someone is using a glove and two pistols.
And that is a choice they made.
With two pistols and nothing I get to 4 before we add any feats at all.
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Let us assume for the purposes of this discussion that the mythical evil GM exists and for some reason you allowed them to be in charge as the GM.
If your GM follows the strictest reading of the guideline, you have up to 5 free actions.
Double barrel is two shots, per hand for 4 shots.
reloading one 3 times is up to 7 shots.
Quick drawing another one is up 9 shots.
You still have a free action to quick draw yet another one, or glove of storing pull another one, etc...
Again, assuming the mythical evil GM exists.
That is by my count 11 possible shots.
Well let's follow this properly! If you're doing the same thing multiple times, you can reload three times per round (because it's doing the same free action multiple times), and this number is reduced if you're doing another free action.
So if you have a full double-barrelled pistol, that's two shots. You can reload them as a free action for four shots. You can then Quick-Draw your second double-barrelled pistol for another two shots. Keep in mind that involves a substantial investment, and that a fighter with a longbow can just have one of those with a hefty bonus.
So six shots. That's enough for a +16 BAB gunslinger to make all his shots with Rapid Shot and haste for a round. Awesome! What does he do next round?
Let's also look at the fact that using this routine, the gunslinger will be doing less damage than any optimized archer. Is that intentional?
Usually when people use a double barrel they fire both barrels. Its against touch AC so the loss to hit isn't nearly that bad. Again, your still inferring that someone is using a glove and two pistols.And that is a choice they made.
They? Who is they? This is you. Your decision. You were talking about a particular magic item being used, one that cost 10k.
With two pistols and nothing I get to 4 before we add any feats at all.
Not even two weapon fighting? Big penalties your taking. With a double barrel you usually fire both shells off at once, not one at a time.
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Let us assume for the purposes of this discussion that the mythical evil GM exists and for some reason you allowed them to be in charge as the GM.
If your GM follows the strictest reading of the guideline, you have up to 5 free actions.
Double barrel is two shots, per hand for 4 shots.
reloading one 3 times is up to 7 shots.
Quick drawing another one is up 9 shots.
You still have a free action to quick draw yet another one, or glove of storing pull another one, etc...
Again, assuming the mythical evil GM exists.
That is by my count 11 possible shots.
Well let's follow this properly! If you're doing the same thing multiple times, you can reload three times per round (because it's doing the same free action multiple times), and this number is reduced if you're doing another free action.
So if you have a full double-barrelled pistol, that's two shots. You can reload them as a free action for four shots. You can then Quick-Draw your second double-barrelled pistol for another two shots. Keep in mind that involves a substantial investment, and that a fighter with a longbow can just have one of those with a hefty bonus.
So six shots. That's enough for a +16 BAB gunslinger to make all his shots with Rapid Shot and haste for a round. Awesome! What does he do next round?
Let's also look at the fact that using this routine, the gunslinger will be doing less damage than any optimized archer. Is that intentional?
First off, we are again assuming the mythical evil GM who no one has shown any evidence exists AND we are assuming you made them GM of your game.
I want that to be clear in every post.
Now following
1. Will they do less damage? They hit against touch AC and crit X4.
2. With the glove or quick draw you can get 6 shots off without reloading, and still have free actions left to reload. Even assuming your reading, that leaves me with 8 attacks on three guns or 7 attacks on two guns.
3. With one gun, I can fire a minimum of 5 times (two with 3 reloads) with one hand.
Again assuming you've put the evil, unreasonable GM in charge for some reason who doesn't actually let you use pepper boxes in the exact way they are described as used, because he is an idiot and you for some reason put an idiot in charge of your strawma....er...game.
Also, while I'm here, because I don't think some of the people on here have actually read the FAQ I want to post it below.
"A: Core Rulebook page 181 says,
"Free Action: Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM."
Core Rulebook page 188 says,
"Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn."
Although there are no specific rules about how many free actions you may take in a round, it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action.
Part of this is for the sake of game balance (as some abilities used together may allow you to perform an unlimited number of useful free actions on your turn).
Part is for realism (as just because you can do something as a free action doesn't really mean you could realistically perform that action 5 or more times in 6 seconds).
Part is to speed up gameplay (as one character taking a dozen actions on his turn slows down the game compared to a character who only takes a standard action and move action on her turn).
Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances.
Example: In one round you could speak, cease concentrating on a spell, dismount (with a DC 20 Ride check), drop a weapon or shield, and drop prone, as each is a different free action.
Example: In one round you could reload a pistol three times (using alchemical cartridges and Rapid Reload [pistol]), or speak and reload a pistol twice, as you are repeating the same free action multiple times."
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Usually when people use a double barrel they fire both barrels. Its against touch AC so the loss to hit isn't nearly that bad. Again, your still inferring that someone is using a glove and two pistols.And that is a choice they made.They? Who is they? This is you. Your decision. You were talking about a particular magic item being used, one that cost 10k.
With two pistols and nothing I get to 4 before we add any feats at all.Not even two weapon fighting? Big penalties your taking. With a double barrel you usually fire both shells off at once, not one at a time.
You are the one who is telling me what people use and you are asking me who "they" is?
And in the same series of posts where you say " Its against touch AC so the loss to hit isn't nearly that bad." you then argue "Big penalties your taking."
You might want to try to take a position other than "Not Ciretose"..
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The numbers work perfectly. I counted three barrels reloaded, not three guns.
You ignore that its a free action to drop each of your starting guns.
You ignore that its a free action to draw each cartridge before you can load them.
You ignore "Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances."
Not to mention the FAQ specifically giving the example of reloading 3 times...
First off, we are again assuming the mythical evil GM who no one has shown any evidence exists AND we are assuming you made them GM of your game.
Do I need to video record a session with one of the GMs I left or something? I feel like this is something you won't admit just to aggravate people and try and discredit their experiences. This isn't bigfoot or aliens we're talking about here dontcha' know.
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First off, we are again assuming the mythical evil GM who no one has shown any evidence exists AND we are assuming you made them GM of your game.Do I need to video record a session with one of the GMs I left or something? I feel like this is something you won't admit just to aggravate people and try and discredit their experiences. This isn't bigfoot or aliens we're talking about here dontcha' know.
At this point it is.
The FAQ was posted thursday and I have yet to see anyone say they will be ruling in any way comparable to any of the scary strawmen that have been posted.
And why are you allowing idiots to be in charge of 4+ hours of your time?
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Well the FAQ must have assumed the bullets were already in hand, because drawing ammunition is explicitly a free action.
Actually, I just noticed how badly shuriken got hit by this. Flurry of Stars no longer works with Rapid Shot, because that is four shuriken that must be drawn, each as a free action. That combination is possible at level 2, so we're not even discussing high level play.
However, the absolute worst part of this FAQ, in my opinion, is the part that lumps talking in with reloading. Yes, talking is a free action. However, this is a social game. Let's not suggest to GMs that a player must keep their character silent just so they can get their requisite number of reloads.
Do we really want all of our free action-dependant characters to have to be silent because they want to get three reloads instead of two? That's what this FAQ suggests. You're right, it doesn't change any rules. However, it does say it's a good idea.
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Well the FAQ must have assumed the bullets were already in hand, because drawing ammunition is explicitly a free action.
Actually, I just noticed how badly shuriken got hit by this. Flurry of Stars no longer works with Rapid Shot, because that is four shuriken that must be drawn, each as a free action. That combination is possible at level 2, so we're not even discussing high level play.
However, the absolute worst part of this FAQ, in my opinion, is the part that lumps talking in with reloading. Yes, talking is a free action. However, this is a social game. Let's not suggest to GMs that a player must keep their character silent just so they can get their requisite number of reloads.
Do we really want all of our free action-dependant characters to have to be silent because they want to get three reloads instead of two? That's what this FAQ suggests. You're right, it doesn't change any rules. However, it does say it's a good idea.
OR...as exactly stated in the FAQ, it's a guideline to remind GM's that they can feel free to set a cap on the number of free actions and giving them reasonable guidelines to consider when doing so, finishing with the line
"Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances."
Which apparently leads some people to assume they will be letting a GM be in charge who is going to do horrible things to them...for some reason...
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I'm curious too. If the only people who would follow the suggestions given in this FAQ are idiots, as you call them, what part of this FAQ should we follow? The idea that free actions are inherently limited? Of course they are!
This limitation, however, is too small. And at any point where a gunslinger can't also shout out some sort of badass epithet as he fires, that's an issue. Why can't he shout? Well he already reloaded three times.
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FYI, for the 'but but but realism!' arguments...
Those are pretty much out the window at level 5.
A martial artist can hustle for 8 hours straight and (without spending feats) go 64 miles in 8 hours. Since he doesn't get fatigued, he can do this 24 hours a day (since there are no penalties for not sleeping) to get 172 miles in one day.
I submit that 'realism' goes out the window at this point.
A 20th level monk (again without feats) can run at roughly 40mph. The fastest man in the world (Bolt) has a personal best on a sprint of 25.7 mph.
So, as far as I can tell, the realism line is level 5. After that, you're not limited by real world physics anymore.
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Why is a defender of the FAQ post calling a GM who enforces a free action count more lenient than the "reasonable" 5 or 3 if repetitive free actions suggested in the FAQ as a "Mythical Evil GM."
Since you think no one would play with the Mythical Evil GM, why should the official FAQ suggest a guideline to make GM's so evil no one will play with them.
Because no one has presented a single person who would rule in any way similar to any of the strawmen presented.
Not a single person.
Tempest in a teapot.
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The FAQ was posted thursday and I have yet to see anyone say they will be ruling in any way comparable to any of the scary strawmen that have been posted.So you're saying the FAQ's example of a reasonable ruling is not actually reasonable?
I'm saying I just showed how you can make full attacks with that ruling at high levels.
You just can't weapon cord cheese without GM approval anymore.
Because no one has presented a single person who would rule in any way similar to any of the strawmen presented.
I've said before that I know GMs who would. I can't get them on camera to say that they would because they would be friggin' insane and over the top, but I do know several who would and will.
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You just called me a jerk. You said your GM was so bad you were going to record a session to show us all.
You said that.
You don't get the moral high ground.
Your lying again. I never said that.
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If not a single person is going follow the guideline given in response to the FAQ its not a good guideline.
Not going to create the strawmen that have been proposed is not the same as not following the guideline.
If someone is trying to do more than 5 free actions and doesn't have a good rationalization for it, it is completely reasonable for the GM to say no.
If it is appropriate, I quote:
"Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances."
That is what the FAQ says.
What part of that do you disagree with.
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My entire point is that all this FAQ does is remind GMs they have latitude on these decisions.
No matter how many times you repeat this, it isn't true.
What the FAQ post did, in addition to reminding GMs of what the rules are, is provide an example of 'reasonable' limits.
But the limits, as given in that FAQ, aren't reasonable. That's what most people are objecting to.
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My entire point is that all this FAQ does is remind GMs they have latitude on these decisions.No matter how many times you repeat this, it isn't true.
What the FAQ post did, in addition to reminding GMs of what the rules are, is provide an example of 'reasonable' limits.
But the limits, as given in that FAQ, aren't reasonable. That's what most people are objecting to.
What would be a reasonable limit?
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What part of that do you disagree with.
I think reducing the number reload actions away from a person because they use a free action to speak is terrible.
I think the idea of GM setting a hard cap on the number of free action a player can take is a bad idea. I think the 'reasonable' suggestion of 3/5 are far too low to even consider.
6 seconds.
completing 3 to 5 actions in 6 seconds that still allow you your full action is far from unreasonable in my opinion.
What has been unreasonable is the abuse of free actions. All this is saying is "Yeah, more than 5 free actions before you even start counting actions might need some justification. But feel free to adjudicate more or less if you think it is appropriate."
My entire point is that all this FAQ does is remind GMs they have latitude on these decisions.No matter how many times you repeat this, it isn't true.
What the FAQ post did, in addition to reminding GMs of what the rules are, is provide an example of 'reasonable' limits.
But the limits, as given in that FAQ, aren't reasonable. That's what most people are objecting to.
Isn't that always going to be the case? Any time they give a suggestion as to what's reasonable (or "possibly reasonable" in the case of the three identical actions limit) wont there be someone who thinks they've gone either too far or not enough?
It seems to me anything built on reasonableness is always going to be subjective. I don't want them to post no FAQs including that concept just because not everyone will agree on where to draw the line. 5/3 is their suggestion which I value, whether I'm going to follow it or now.
What part of that do you disagree with.
I think reducing the number reload actions away from a person because they use a free action to speak is terrible.
I think the idea of GM setting a hard cap on the number of free action a player can take is a bad idea. I think the 'reasonable' suggestion of 3/5 are far too low to even consider.
6 seconds.
completing 3 to 5 actions in 6 seconds that still allow you your full action is far from unreasonable in my opinion.
Unless you dual wield. Plus you can easily go above five.
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Unless you dual wield. Plus you can easily go above five.
What part of that do you disagree with.
I think reducing the number reload actions away from a person because they use a free action to speak is terrible.
I think the idea of GM setting a hard cap on the number of free action a player can take is a bad idea. I think the 'reasonable' suggestion of 3/5 are far too low to even consider.
6 seconds.
completing 3 to 5 actions in 6 seconds that still allow you your full action is far from unreasonable in my opinion.
Dual wielding has nothing to do with anything.
3 to 5 free actions, not counting another swift actions, and you can still have a standard and a move action.
That is 8 actions in 6 seconds, as a guideline.
Not a rule. (said in Allen Iverson's voice...)
A guideline
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Except your fighters attacks go from 1 to 4-7 in twenty levels, but his free action numbers stay the same?
Except apparently if you use a bow it's fine?
Except it's essentially saying "no, we won't fix perceived imbalance, instead we make a sweeping guideline to encourage the DM handwave it".
What imbalance? On the weapon that attacks against touch AC and has a X4 crit?
There is nothing to handwave. It's a guideline.
"Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances."
Dual wielding has nothing to do with anything.
Well, that's what the weapon cord thing was supposed to allow you to do. You need two weapon fighting investments to do it. Additionally flurry or someone who uses two weapons attacks up seven times per round without magical assistance.
Weapon cords ideally allowed two weapon fighting which pathfinder doesn't support very well, your other options being a magical glove, growing a third arm, or magical support of another kind.
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It should be an FAQ because people were demanding unreasonable amounts of free actions, not just in firearms, but throughout the game and the Devs thought it appropriate to remind the GM that the rules allow them to say no and to set a guideline as to what could be reasonable.
Being able to do 5 things without losing your standard, move or swift action isn't unreasonable as a baseline.
Particularly when you include.
"Again, these are guidelines, and the GM can allow more or fewer free actions as appropriate to the circumstances."