Which is fine in a world where you the PCs have to play the good guys. But Pathfinder is not that game. Every alignment is supposed to be as valid a choice-- good, evil, lawful, chaotic, neutral. . .
Is it a valid choice? most APs and modules are written where the path of least resistance (without total derailment) is good or neutral. And many games ban characters of evil alignments. There are pretty much no "evil-only APs", while there is a "good-only AP" (Wrath of the Righteous). There are some campaigns that definitely fall on the gray side of the spectrum, such as the Pirates AP, but you don't have to be evil to play in that one.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
NO! next question
It's always bothered me as well Tactics. You take a Lawful Good Paladin, and if he fails his save against something like Vampirism (before he is immune), he's now Evil, and Fallen. Since it's 'implied' in published material, and James Jacobs confirmed it in his thread, being Undead actually interferes with your soul passing on (in canon Golarion). So, a Vampire, because of a disease, is turned Evil, and forever damned, denied his paradise in the afterlife, because it's unlikely a party of adventurers is going to come along and redeem the former Paladin.
The Paladin did nothing wrong. Hell, he was probably doing exactly as his duty commanded him to in fighting the Vampire. Yet his God(s) seem to just abandon him, his allies kill him, and his soul is sent to Hell because of a disease, instead of any action on his part.
F@## that.
There is no good story there, it's just BS. Sentience is supposed to come with free-will. Being sent to Hell or the Abyss or Abaddon is supposed to be something that a person choses to do, because of his actions.
The idea of free-will is quite suspect, since you can be forced to completely alter your entire world view, with what amounts to being a simple bite. Your very soul, the nature of your being, is forever altered, with no choice on your part.
While I have no problem with Paladins winding up in hell (actually I'd give them their own special hell), you are right that a disease shouldn't make someone evil. First it killed the person, then it turns the body into an animated killing machine. So the disease might be considered evil, the person that created and spread it is definitely evil, but I don't see how that makes the victim of it evil?
When I have used non-evil undead typically there is some back story to why they exist. There has to be something that ties them to this plane that is of their own origin, and not the plans of others.
Is it a valid choice? most APs and modules are written where the path of least resistance (without total derailment) is good or neutral. And many games ban characters of evil alignments. There are pretty much no "evil-only APs", while there is a "good-only AP" (Wrath of the Righteous). There are some campaigns that definitely fall on the gray side of the spectrum, such as the Pirates AP, but you don't have to be evil to play in that one.
Which is fine in a world where you the PCs have to play the good guys. But Pathfinder is not that game. Every alignment is supposed to be as valid a choice-- good, evil, lawful, chaotic, neutral. . .
I see them as definite valid choices. I think the lack of material is just fitting the market. Selling an evil AP would be tough, as you'd have many pass on it. I think it would work, if you set it in Cheliax, where LE is the standard. It would be a good way to demonstrate the validity of evil alignments, and support the many ways the material say it works.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
really cool stuff on undead god things
What, no one wants to hear about my neat (un)dead gods? Man, I never get nothin'!
(Except a looming child birth this coming July, Lord willing. I get that.)
^^
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
really cool stuff on undead god thingsWhat, no one wants to hear about my neat (un)dead gods? Man, I never get nothin'!
(Except a looming child birth this coming July, Lord willing. I get that.)
^
How are you getting Internet in utero?
Wait.
....
Oh! Congratulations :3
i have no problems with the existence of good aligned undead, lawful good demons or even chaotic evil archons. my problem, is when a species is shoehorned into one alignment because of their biological makeup or animating force. of course in my own settings, good aligned intelligent undead (such as good aligned vampires, mummies and liches) exist, mindless undead (such as zombies and skeletons) are all neutral. i can't say it for golarion because i don't own a lot of golarion material and every group has their own interpretation. in my own, Good drow do indeed exist, but rather than being 1 in 1,000,0000 they are like 1 in 100 or 1 in 1,000. same with good undead and evil angels.
Is it a valid choice? most APs and modules are written where the path of least resistance (without total derailment) is good or neutral. And many games ban characters of evil alignments. There are pretty much no "evil-only APs", while there is a "good-only AP" (Wrath of the Righteous). There are some campaigns that definitely fall on the gray side of the spectrum, such as the Pirates AP, but you don't have to be evil to play in that one.
Which is fine in a world where you the PCs have to play the good guys. But Pathfinder is not that game. Every alignment is supposed to be as valid a choice-- good, evil, lawful, chaotic, neutral. . .
As I understand it is legal to play Evil in PFS and there is even at least one faction (Chelaxian?) which specifically caters to evil characters?
No, playing Evil characters is specifically disallowed in PFS.
No, playing Evil characters is specifically disallowed in PFS.
Then why on earth is there an Evil faction?
No, playing Evil characters is specifically disallowed in PFS.Then why on earth is there an Evil faction?
Because it's not an evil faction? It's a pro-Cheliax faction. Some of their stuff is on the shady side, but the ultimate goal is to further the interests of Cheliax.
Well, this spell came from a Golarion-specific book:
An undead creating spell without the [Evil] descriptor.
Probably because the undead created can't be used to harm the living. But according to the implied and unpublished-but-James-Jacobs-official-canon for Golarion, it prevents the souls of those corpses from passing on until they are destroyed.
Probably because that spell slipped through the cracks without James catching it.
Because it's not an evil faction? It's a pro-Cheliax faction. Some of their stuff is on the shady side, but the ultimate goal is to further the interests of Cheliax.No, playing Evil characters is specifically disallowed in PFS.Then why on earth is there an Evil faction?
I don't know. . . maybe they have changed it in newer organized play guides. In the Season three guide it very specifically says Cheliax LE.
Well yes, the Faction itself is Lawful Evil, but the people are apart of the faction are not necessarily evil themselves.
Remember, PFS is not Pathfinder, it's PFS. In some ways it's Nerfed-finder because the tend to ban the most powerful abilities. They also ban abilities that extend fights, are disruptive, or things that make one person's turn 10 minutes long (such as Master Summoners).
In PFS, you can't be an evil person, but you can worship an evil god, and serve an evil faction, as long as you yourself aren't evil. In PFS it tends to be easier to serve Evil Factions because you don't have to worry about two players having conflicting missions (such as a Chelaxian having to kill a person, while an Andoran has to ensure they survive). However, serving Evil Gods can be difficult as cultists of *insert Evil god here* can often be the enemies, so you have the player question of, "Hey, I worship Asmodeus, why am I stopping other Asmodeans from serving Asmodeus?"
There are a lot of nonsensical aspects of PFS, but it's designed to be that way so everyone is playing on the same footing, with the same rules, and they don't have to worry about how one GM handles something, while another does something differently. They try to limit a lot of the problems some tables have such as building an Elf character, only for half the players and the GM to have a hatred for Elves and go out of their way to kill that Elf.
If such a thing were to happen in PFS, you can simply report the GM and/or the players and they might have their PFS membership revoked, which forces them to get a new membership, and build new characters.
I was just using it as a means to counter the argument of "Golarian is all for heroes, therefore all Undead must be evil so heroes can be hero-ey!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So tonight, I just learned that...
I'll admit that when I found out I lifted my arms up in the air and yelled, "Whoo!"
It's always bothered me as well Tactics. You take a Lawful Good Paladin, and if he fails his save against something like Vampirism (before he is immune), he's now Evil, and Fallen. Since it's 'implied' in published material, and James Jacobs confirmed it in his thread, being Undead actually interferes with your soul passing on (in canon Golarion). So, a Vampire, because of a disease, is turned Evil, and forever damned, denied his paradise in the afterlife, because it's unlikely a party of adventurers is going to come along and redeem the former Paladin.
The Paladin did nothing wrong. Hell, he was probably doing exactly as his duty commanded him to in fighting the Vampire. Yet his God(s) seem to just abandon him, his allies kill him, and his soul is sent to Hell because of a disease, instead of any action on his part.
F%~@ that.
There is no good story there, it's just BS. Sentience is supposed to come with free-will. Being sent to Hell or the Abyss or Abaddon is supposed to be something that a person choses to do, because of his actions.
The idea of free-will is quite suspect, since you can be forced to completely alter your entire world view, with what amounts to being a simple bite. Your very soul, the nature of your being, is forever altered, with no choice on your part.
I actually kind of like this. It reminds me of good old fashioned polytheism, rather than the strictly ordered afterlife of Judeo-Christian systems where everyone ultimately ends up exactly where they deserve to be, because the Overpower has decreed that the powers of evil have to respect free will.
Think Dido in the Aeneid:
[ . . . ] she died
a death that was not merited nor fated
but miserable and before her time
and spurred by sudden frenzy
She ends up in eternal misery in the bad part of the afterlife for that, all the same - the narrative encounters her there again in Book VI - not for anything to do with her free will, but because a malign curse f$*@ed up a good person's life. I'm sure you could see a parallel with the curse of undeath.
I mean, Pathfinder is a world in which powers of Good and Evil, Order and Chaos are at war in the afterlife. What makes it seem like souls are guaranteed to end up at their ideal final destination, or that the powers of Evil are only going to craft curses that respect the free will of the soul? They don't labor under the restrictions Satan does.