They both replace/change the bonus feats, and are probably incompatible because of this. That said, sohei adds mounted combat to your choices of bonus feats and master of many styles changes your choices, so its not exactly an insane idea that they should work together without a problem. And sohei doesn't actually say it replaces or changes anything, so I don't know the answer!
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Sohei is a bit of a problem right now because "a sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats."
That does actually modify the Bonus Feat ability and therefore does not stack with any other archetype that replaces or modifies the Bonus Feat class ability.
The bigger problem (in my mind) is that there's no definition of what a "mounted combat" feat is and no level restrictions. I've seen several PFS players choose to interpret this as "I can take any feat that has Mounted Combat as a prerequisite, whether or not I meet any of the prereqs (since the normal Bonus Feat ability allows you to ignore prereqs)." So yes, I've seen people take a 1 level dip into Sohei and have Mounted Skirmisher on their 2nd level dual-wielding fighter (or ranger, or cavalier).
I believe this is absolutely NOT what is intended, but since I have not been able to find an official response banning it, I allow it in PFS.
Oh, right, my point. I suspect this will be modified in the next printing of Ultimate Combat, and if so those people are going to find themselves with builds that don't work anymore.
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They both modify the Bonus Feat class feature and therefore cannot be combined. All else is irrelevant. For reference to a similar situation, see Mike Brock's post on combining the Crossblooded and Wildblooded archetypes here.
see Mike Brock's post on combining the Crossblooded and Wildblooded archetypes here.
Different case. Besides, that ruling was stupid and has no logic behind it.
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see Mike Brock's post on combining the Crossblooded and Wildblooded archetypes here.Different case. Besides, that ruling was stupid and has no logic behind it.
Well yes, technically it is a different case. At any rate, I linked it because the issue being debated there is similar to the one being debated here: can two archetypes be combined in PFS if there is a relatively clear means of combining two conflicting class feature changes? And the answer, straight from the top, is no.
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Sohei is a bit of a problem right now because "a sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats."Hmm...
Can a Sohei only take mounted combat feats as bonus feats, or can a Sohei take feats like Dodge, Scorpion Style, etc. as well?
-Matt
Another part of the problem. Every other monk archetype (and ranger combat style) defines what feats you are eligible for at each level. Sohei just adds a class of feats - a class that isn't even defined.
Furthermore, your opinion on a ruling does not, in any way, change the ruling itself.
Did I say it does?
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Another part of the problem. Every other monk archetype (and ranger combat style) defines what feats you are eligible for at each level. Sohei just adds a class of feats - a class that isn't even defined.Sohei is a bit of a problem right now because "a sohei may select mounted combat feats as bonus feats."Hmm...
Can a Sohei only take mounted combat feats as bonus feats, or can a Sohei take feats like Dodge, Scorpion Style, etc. as well?
-Matt
This is actually a pretty important question. If Sohei's Bonus Feats class feature overwrites the Monk's Bonus Feats class feature, then Sohei's Weapon and Armor Proficiency class feature overwrites the Monk's Weapon and Armor Proficiency class feature. Thus, a Sohei would be able to use Flurry of Blows while wearing armor, as that restriction lies in the now-overwritten Monk's Weapon and Armor Proficiency class feature.
If, however, the Sohei's Bonus Feats class feature merely adds to the bonus feat list, then the Monk's Bonus Feats class feature isn't actually modified, meaning that one could take both Sohei and Master of Many Styles.
So, either the Sohei's Bonus Feats replaces the Monk's, meaning that it cannot be combined with Master of Many Styles and that a Sohei can flurry in armor as well, or the Sohei's Bonus Feats does not replace the Monk's, meaning that it can be combined with Master of Many Styles and that a Sohei cannot flurry in armor.
In other words, all the Sohei's class features either replace the Monk's (without explicitly saying so), or they don't.
It's also worth keeping in mind that the Sohei's author is the same mind behind the ugly, ugly text of Fast Learner. Just throwing that out there.
-Matt
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Master of Many Styles replaces the Monk's normal choices for bonus feats with Style feats.
The Sohei adds mounted combat feats to the Monk's normal list availible bonus feats, without replacing or removing anything.
I would interpret this to mean that if you take both archtypes, your feat list for bonus feats would be style feats and mounted combat feats, but none of the normal monk bonus feats that MoM replaces, since Sohei is just adding additional options to the normal bonus feat ability.
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Master of Many Styles replaces the Monk's normal choices for bonus feats with Style feats.
The Sohei adds mounted combat feats to the Monk's normal list availible bonus feats, without replacing or removing anything.
I would interpret this to mean that if you take both archtypes, your feat list for bonus feats would be style feats and mounted combat feats, but none of the normal monk bonus feats that MoM replaces, since Sohei is just adding additional options to the normal bonus feat ability.
You can't take most of the shaman archetypes and much of anything else because they all alter the "wild empathy" ability by adding to it. (with a +4 bonus to your genus and the ability to do it faster)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The Sohei adds mounted combat feats to the Monk's normal list availible bonus feats, without replacing or removing anything.
Sohei is just adding additional options to the normal bonus feat ability.
Would you say Sohei makes a comparatively small change?
I would.
So I think I would say it alters the Bonus Feat feature.
If it alters, then it counts for blocking other Archetypes.
So unless you assert that adding feats doesn't alter, you have no RAW way to reject it blocking.
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Wolf, wild empathy isn't the reason those archtypes don't stack, imo. It doesn't replace the wild empathy class feature, it doesn't prevent you from using it normally, it just gives you the option to also use it as a full round action with a +4 to X animal type. I'd say what does block the shaman archtypes from stacking with other archtypes is that all of them have an ability that replaces Venom Immunity and A Thousand Faces, which is replaced by pretty much every other druid archtype as well.
James, I would say that the Sohei makes again, an addition, not a change. You aren't giving up the ability to take the normal monk feats. The Sohei archtype doesn't say it's feat selection replaces the normal monk feat selection (like the MOMS does). They should stack, allowing you to take style feats and mounted combat feats as your bonus feats, or at worse, just take the style feats.
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Let me rephrase for you then. As far as the rules of pathfinder are concerned, it doesn't replace the normal monk feats. There's no line in there saying that it relaces the monk's normal bonus feats, like there are for other abilities in the same archtype. Therefore, it's not a replacement. You are allowed to take multiple archetypes as long as the replacement abilities for those two archetypes do not replace the same ability. Therefore, you can stack it with another monk archetype that says it does replace the monk's normal bonus feats, like MoMS, as per RAW.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Let me rephrase for you then. You are allowed to take multiple archetypes as long as the replacement abilities for those two archetypes do not replace the same ability.
It is replace or alter. You keep talking about replacing. Adding feats to a list isn't a replacement. But is an alteration.
I... am pretty sure this is now a topic for the rules forum, and will bow out. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Before you bow, do you honestly believe adding to isn't altering?
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Wolf, wild empathy isn't the reason those archtypes don't stack, imo. It doesn't replace the wild empathy class feature, it doesn't prevent you from using it normally, it just gives you the option to also use it as a full round action with a +4 to X animal type. I'd say what does block the shaman archtypes from stacking with other archtypes is that all of them have an ability that replaces Venom Immunity and A Thousand Faces, which is replaced by pretty much every other druid archtype as well.
James, I would say that the Sohei makes again, an addition, not a change. You aren't giving up the ability to take the normal monk feats. The Sohei archtype doesn't say it's feat selection replaces the normal monk feat selection (like the MOMS does). They should stack, allowing you to take style feats and mounted combat feats as your bonus feats, or at worse, just take the style feats.
Folks keep making the error in these discussions that an ability needs to be replaced to disallow another archetype that replaces the same ability.
The key to the language is "replace or modify". I don't know about you, but adding to a class ability sounds like a modification to me.
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Let me rephrase for you then. As far as the rules of pathfinder are concerned, it doesn't replace the normal monk feats. There's no line in there saying that it relaces the monk's normal bonus feats, like there are for other abilities in the same archtype. Therefore, it's not a replacement. You are allowed to take multiple archetypes as long as the replacement abilities for those two archetypes do not replace the same ability. Therefore, you can stack it with another monk archetype that says it does replace the monk's normal bonus feats, like MoMS, as per RAW.
Again, the language for archetypes being mutually exclusive is not just "replace" but also "modify". Adding to an ability is modifying it. There is no valid argument to refute this.