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I enjoy how wiz vs, sorc debates always assume the wiz has a high degree of certainty what he's going to find. I can easily imagine another creature disguising its lair as a dragon lair.
Also, a sorc specializes in something like fire is a sub-optimal build
Okay, try this:
Party approach cave. They inspect the frozen corpses.
Wizard: "Ah, so it is as I feared, a white dragon. I agreed to help the villagers, and I will, but I did not prepare the correct magicks this morning. We will leave this place forthwith, and return tomorrow, when we shall corner the beast."
VS
Party approach cave. They inspect the frozen corpses.
Cold Sorcerer: "Ah, s*#+. Screw these peasants, we're not stopping."
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Or this:
Party approach cave. They inspect the melted corpses.
Wizard: "Ah, so it is as I feared, a black dragon. I agreed to help the villagers, and I will, but I did not prepare the correct magicks this morning. We will leave this place forthwith, and return tomorrow, when we shall corner the beast."
VS
Party approach cave. They inspect the melted corpses.
Acid Sorcerer: "Ah, s*#+. Screw these peasants, we're not stopping."
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Or this;
Party approach cave. They inspect the lightning-blasted corpses.
Wizard: "Ah, so it is as I feared, a blue dragon. I agreed to help the villagers, and I will, but I did not prepare the correct magicks this morning. We will leave this place forthwith, and return tomorrow, when we shall corner the beast."
VS
Party approach cave. They inspect the lightning-blasted corpses.
Air Sorcerer: "Ah, s*#+. Screw these peasants, we're not stopping."
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Or this:
Party approach cave. They inspect the [insert any possible evidence here].
Wizard: "Ah, so it is as I feared, [insert any possible situation here]. I agreed to help the villagers, and I will, but I did not prepare the correct magicks this morning. We will leave this place forthwith, and return tomorrow, when we shall corner the beast."
VS
Party approach cave. They inspect the [insert any possible evidence here].
Any Sorcerer at all: "Ah, s*#+. Screw these peasants, we're not stopping."
Hilarious, Snorter.
Back to rogues and traps. Look, I invented the Thief class, so I know full well how indispensible it can be in a dungeon full of deadly Gygaxian traps. Even tho in PF a few archetypes can get close, none can fill those pointy shoes for that specialized role.
But PF doesn’t have dungeons full of deadly Gygaxian traps. That specialized role is no longer necessary. Yes, a PC with maxed out Perception is needed, but that can be done by many classes. Trap Spotter talent is nice, and Disable Device is handy, but not as critical as it used to be.
Shain- good idea but Divination gives limited info and is not on a Wizard spell list. He could use clairvoyance to see inside one room.
I think people are forgetting that there really isn't that many "must-have" spells on the Wiz/Sorc spell list.
Sorcs aren't hurting as much as Snorter's makin' em out to. (And why are you assuming that the Wizard has the appropriate Knowledge high enough? Get that Schrodinger outta here. :P )
Also, while I FULLY support giving the Wizard a chance to add spells to his/her spellbook throughout their career, you are absolutely not going to be "drowning in spells". There's a good chance the Wizard doesn't know the right spells either.
You're not playin' Elminster here, after all.
(And why are you assuming that the Wizard has the appropriate Knowledge high enough? Get that Schrodinger outta here. :P )
I always put one point in every knowledge... just in case. Besides, think of all the exposition you could be missing out on! The history of the 3rd painting on the left in the emperors palace could be the key to solving the murder!
Just kidding, but seriously, that painting isn't supposed to be there and the eyes are following you.
Also, while I FULLY support giving the Wizard a chance to add spells to his/her spellbook throughout their career, you are absolutely not going to be "drowning in spells". There's a good chance the Wizard doesn't know the right spells either.
You're not playin' Elminster here, after all.
Its theory craft that you'd have every spell at every level throughout your entire career like a divine caster. The idea is that supposedly you could always come back with the solution or you theoretically could have the solution at your hands, but to be honest that's pretty hit or miss depending on the situation and player. I've had several GMs for instance who won't let me add to the spellbook, bleh.
We totally agree on Rogues and skills, but I'm gonna fight ya on this one. ;)
Well, sure. But it's 100x more effective for the Sorc to learn new spells and always have them at his fingertips, then it is for the wizard to be wishing he had The Perfect Spell in memory instead of sitting in his books.Wizards get Scribe Scroll at first level for free. They can have the spell "at their fingertips" just like the Sorcerer can.
In fact, taking a 9th level spell for example, a Wizard can copy a Time Stop into his spellbook, and then make 40 scrolls of it, and still have paid slightly less money than the Sorcerer paid for just a single Time Stop Page of Spell Knowledge. (And for every spell level you drop, the number of scrolls that Wizard can make for the same price goes up. ;) )
Yeah, and it would only take that wizard 160 days to scribe all 40 Time Stop scrolls...
You have to get fairly close for Arcane eye, it doesn't have darkvision, and it can't go thru doors. All such spells have similar issues. They can be useful, no doubt, but they are not all that good for a dungeon crawl.
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My wizard/sorcerer experience goes more like this:
Party approach cave. They inspect the [insert any possible evidence here].
Wizard: "Ah, so it is as I feared, [insert any possible situation here]. I agreed to help the villagers, and I will, but I did not prepare the correct magicks this morning, nor do I have them yet in my books. We will leave this place forthwith, and return in a week, when we shall corner the beast."
VS
Party approach cave. They inspect the [insert any possible evidence here].
Any Sorcerer at all: "I can deal with this right now. Let's go."
A sorcerer who knows what spells to pick as spells known will be nearly as versatile as a wizard in 90% of common situations.
I enjoy playing both sorcerers and wizards. They play differently, and trying to force them to play the same way will result in dissatisfaction. In the (tongue-in-cheek) example above, that wizard returning in a week will enable his party to completely own the situation, while the sorcerer will probably muddle through right away. Either way the PCs do fine.
Because False Vision is a high level spell and to protect the lair at all times would need to be cast atleast twice per day?
DC 25 Knowledge Arcana check, an easy check for any Wizard worth his salt can identify it.
Because False Vision is a high level spell and to protect the lair at all times would need to be cast atleast twice per day?
DC 25 Knowledge Arcana check, an easy check for any Wizard worth his salt can identify it.
You can't identify an illusion by just rolling a knowledge check.
How are you going to look at the scene through a scrying device and figure out that what you're looking at isn't real?
You can most definitely identify an illusion with Knowledge Arcana.
DC 20+Spell Level.If you have even an inkling that there might be a magical effect in place, you can make the check.
Mage's Private Sanctum shows that there is a arcane caster powerful enough to effectively be at _least_ a 9th level to cast a 5th level spell, which wouldn't be a dragon casting it, since none of the dragons I know of have Mage's Private Sanctum in their list.
To be fair, it's not unreasonable for the GM to change the spell list of dragons. But, more importantly... Most dragons can use scrolls. And why wouldn't them?
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Dungeon doors are notoriously bad at being well maintained, which tends to cause them to have pretty good gaps in floor clearance.Or any door with less than a 1 inch gap.
Of course you might have a problem if there is air tight shut doors blocking your passage.
You are joking, or you really think that doors in an inhabited area will have 1 inch wide gaps?
And the bad maintained doors in dungeons usually are warped by humidity and struck shut, not full of holes. Only doors that are open or have been broken will leave that kind of passage open.Not every dungeon. Not even most. There are an awful lot of monsters with int above 8 who will maintain their lair.
Dungeon doors are notoriously bad at being well maintained, which tends to cause them to have pretty good gaps in floor clearance.Well the example was 'dragons'. Very few dragons can, or even want to, maintain doors. In addition, very few creatures who live in a 'dungeon' actually keep it (or even themselves) well maintained. Ogres, goblins, kobolds, orcs, etc are not highly interested in anything besides blocking out a barbarian from getting past.
I can barely name one denizen who lives in a 'dungeon' setting who takes the time to craft precise fitting doors, other then maybe gnomes and dwarves.
With Kobolds you mean the same race that has a racial bonus to Craft (trapmaking), Perception, and Profession (miner))?
I see you use a lot of stereotypes on how intelligent creatures live, but nothing that is canon in the rules.
Dragons can have a problem maintaining doors (but they have cantrips and mending is a cantrip) but they often have servants, high intelligence and spellcraft.
They usually aren't lax in defending their lair.
Or this:
Party approach cave. They inspect the melted corpses.
Wizard: "Ah, so it is as I feared, a black dragon. I agreed to help the villagers, and I will, but I did not prepare the correct magicks this morning. We will leave this place forthwith, and return tomorrow, when we shall corner the beast."
VS
Party approach cave. They inspect the melted corpses.
Acid Sorcerer: "Ah, s*#+. Screw these peasants, we're not stopping."
Technically, the (insert element) sorceror would say," Awesome. That dragon is gonna be pissed when he tries using acid on us, and I use lightning back on him."
heh.
==Aelryinth
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It states within the spell itself that if the caster is not concentrating on the spell, that the area is static.
Are you saying that the caster is 24 hours a day concentrating on their illusion?
I missed that. But, I also missed Mage's Private Sanctum (which, from a scrying device, may appear as a simple zone of darkness and can be permanentized on the cheap). I, also, missed programmed illusion.
You add Programmed Illusion, I'll add True Seeing.
Mage's Private Sanctum shows that there is a arcane caster powerful enough to effectively be at _least_ a 9th level to cast a 5th level spell, which wouldn't be a dragon casting it, since none of the dragons I know of have Mage's Private Sanctum in their list.
In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.
No true seeing on your remote viewing spell.
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Let's see the divinations options:
You don't need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to you, or an obvious one.
....
Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10-foot radius around the center of the spell's effect.
Unless you rule that "the dragon lair" is a obvious location or youa have been there before, it work badly.
And no magical darkvision when using it.
You can observe a creature at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the spell fails.
...
As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message.
Target a creature, with a will saving throw and a bonus if you don't know the creature.
Magical darkvision work, true seeing don't (as explained in True seeing).And this "little" piece of the rules will ruin your life if the target make his ST and is a dragon.
Succeeding on a Saving Throw: A creature that successfully saves against a spell that has no obvious physical effects feels a hostile force or a tingle, but cannot deduce the exact nature of the attack. Likewise, if a creature's saving throw succeeds against a targeted spell, you sense that the spell has failed. You do not sense when creatures succeed on saves against effect and area spells.
Knowledge arcana and spellcraft would give him a reasonable chance to realize what is happening.
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Late to the party.
Turn Undead becoming Channeling with the extras like Turn Undead needing a feat and more feats needed so you don't heal the enemy, plus being an either/or with healing/harming. I thought that when I healed, I auto-harmed undead but not so.
Useless ability scores.
That's something that bothered me about 3.0 that Pathfinder inherited and did little to address. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game, but it does come across as a lazy detail that detracts from the aesthetics of the mechanics.
This is what I mean:
With the exception of Strength (score determines encumbrance limits) and Constitution (score determines negative hit point limit), the actual ability score means squat.
It's the *modifier* that matters. That leads to a whole chain of buff spells and magic items that must take the math involved into account to be useful. Who cares that Cat's Grace adds 4 to your Dex? It's critical that it adds 2 to your modifier, for AC, ranged attacks, Ref save, weapon finesse, what-have-you. Who cares that your belts/headbands grant +2/+4/+6 to attributes? It's the +1/+2/+3 bonus to associated tasks that matters. It just seems clumsy.
Even clumsier when considering the extra ability point at every 4 levels. That just makes even ability scores have more "kinetic energy" (they already have the bonus threshold) and odd ability scores have more "potential energy" (only need 4 levels to get that next bonus). So if you create your character with too many odd scores, you may be stuck with more "potential" than you can convert to "kinetic". But if it's all even scores, you have to wait 8 levels (well, 7, as you start at 1) until your first increase.
It's as though, when they went 3.0, they wanted to convert to (Attribute + Skill) style resolution mechanic of other RPGs while still looking like 1st ed 3d6 spread of ability scores. Incredibly clumsy it seems.
At least there's ability damage/drain. That's a good way of having each actual ability point count.
That's about the only thing that crossed over to Pathfinder from 3.0 that actually bothers me. Again, mostly from an aesthetic point of view. I still quite enjoy the game.
Useless ability scores.
That's something that bothered me about 3.0 that Pathfinder inherited and did little to address. It doesn't prevent me from enjoying the game, but it does come across as a lazy detail that detracts from the aesthetics of the mechanics.
This is what I mean:
With the exception of Strength (score determines encumbrance limits) and Constitution (score determines negative hit point limit), the actual ability score means squat.
That's about the only thing that crossed over to Pathfinder from 3.0 that actually bothers me. Again, mostly from an aesthetic point of view. I still quite enjoy the game.
That has been around since OD&D days. It's tradition.
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But PF doesn’t have dungeons full of deadly Gygaxian traps. That specialized role is no longer necessary. Yes, a PC with maxed out Perception is needed, but that can be done by many classes. Trap Spotter talent is nice, and Disable Device is handy, but not as critical as it used to be.
For someone who's been in the hobby so long, you seem to be immune to realizing that how YOU (or even Paizo) play the game is NOT the only way to play the game. Pathfinder can be played with Gygaxian traps.
But PF doesn’t have dungeons full of deadly Gygaxian traps. That specialized role is no longer necessary. Yes, a PC with maxed out Perception is needed, but that can be done by many classes. Trap Spotter talent is nice, and Disable Device is handy, but not as critical as it used to be.For someone who's been in the hobby so long, you seem to be immune to realizing that how YOU (or even Paizo) play the game is NOT the only way to play the game. Pathfinder can be played with Gygaxian traps.
I do find it weird sometimes how it seems like every single poster on the forum has been playing since the 1970's. Seriously, any long discussion thread is going to be full of people trying to claim authority on the basis of how they've been playing tabletop RPGs for nearly forty years. I don't doubt there are some old grognards on the forum, but from how often people brag about how they've been playing since the seventies, I'm starting to wonder if I'm the only twenty-something who started tabletop RPGs in college, while everyone else on the board has been playing since a decade before I was even born.