I have a player using at first level with a whip reach weapon that has the trip feature. If he makes a reach attack with the whip to trip a creature and he is outside the threatened area of the creature being attacked, what happens? Does the player need to make a touch attack? Is it just a Trip CMD? What happens to the creatures AOO? Without an AOO (either against the PC or the weapon) it seems like the player is getting Improved Trip for free?
Could someone please walk me through this?
Thanks,
Kizan
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Whip has a reach of 15'.
Whip wielder can make attacks anywhere in that area, including against adjacent targets.
Attacks can be trips, disarms, sunders, or normal attacks.
Without certain feats, attacks with whips, trip attacks, disarm attacks and sunder attacks all provoke.
If, however, the target is too far away from the wielder to attack them, they don;t get to attack the whip. Note: There are feats that can allow someone to make an attack of opportunity against someone normally outside their threatened area.
Whip attacks are either normal attacks against AC, or, if making a combat maneuver, a CMB attack against CMD, as normal.
Without certain feats, whips do not allow taking Attacks of Opportunity.
Without a certain feat, normal whip attacks do only non-lethal damage, and only against unarmoredf and lightly armored opponents. Whips do not get any bonus damage from being wielded two-handed, even though they are one-handed weapons.
Now, to your specific questions:
PC makes an attack with a whip against a non-adjacent opponent: The attack provokes, but if the opponent does not threaten the PC, he does not get to take his AoO.
The attack is against normal AC, if an attack to do damage, or against CMD if a trip, disarm or sunder attempt.
Note: While some of the effects are similar, the PC doers not get anywhere near the full benefit as having the Improved Trip feat, since he does not get the +2 to trip attempts, and still provokes if the opponent has reach or is close enough to threaten him.
Really, until you get a bunch of feats, whips are fairly inferior weapons. Once you get a fair way along the feat chain, they can be awesome, but they require a heavy feat investment to get there.
Whips are Exotic weapons, so usually require a feat (EWP) so as to not start out with a -4 to your attacks (including combat maneuvers) with it.
Whips provoke when making attacks, only do non-lethal, and cannot damage opponents in very much armor or with much in the way of natural armor, without spending two more feats (Weapon Focus: Whips, and Whip Mastery).
Whips do not get to take Attacks of Opportunity normally (again, this can be overcome with the spending of yet another feat, but it requires Whip Mastery first, before you can take Improved Whip Mastery).
Trip, disarm and sunder attacks provoke AoOs. These AoO provokes can be avoided for each type of attack by spending a feat on the related Improved CM feat, which also provide a +2 bonus to attacks with that type of combat maneuver.
Really, just getting to where the enemy is threatening the PC, who usually won't get to take an AoO to prevent it, can pretty much shut down a normal whip wielder. That first level one, for sure.
Note: Even with Improved Whip Mastery, the normal area the wielder can take AoOs with his whip is only out to 10', much like any other reach weapon.
There's no touch attack required, it's just a straight CMB vs. CMD roll. The same is true for grappling. Touch attacks were required in 3.5, but are not in PF.
And yes, you can trip people without taking an AoO if you're outside their reach.
Ninjaed by kinevon :l
Anyways as he mentioned, with out taking extra feats (Whip Mastery), attacking with the Whip, or using it to make trips, disarms or sunders, provokes AoO. So any one that can reach him gets to make an AoO. On top of that making a trip attack provokes an additional AoO from the one they are trying to trip (unless he has improved trip.)
The player might be seen as getting Improved Trip "for free", but really the player is getting Improved Trip only if they can stay out of the way, and it costs them either a bunch of feats (which make for a fun character) or an item that's only situationally useful due to the heavy restrictions on damage.
That said, if you usually have a free hand, you could do worse than wielding a whip in your other hand for the occasional out-of-range trip attack, even if you aren't proficient, especially during that first round if you and your opponent start just out of move range of each other. You can either close and take a shot at tripping (instead of closing and doing nothing) if you're just over a single move away, or ready an action to trip the enemy the moment they come within range if they're just over a double move away. Once they close, drop the whip and go two-handed.
Thanks for all the information and explanation!
This almost seems like the perfect weapon for a wizard or other non-combatant type person. You don't have to use it just holding it would provide TONS of threatened squares to provide flank or force creatures to make tumble checks (though taking the AOO's really aren't that bad). It seems like it might make someone a great flank-buddy.
Thanks again,
Kizan
Not quite...
Whip: A whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
osuracnaes:
No, it was changed in UE.
Whip:
Type exoticA whip deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with a 15-foot reach, though you don't threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon. You can't wield a whip in two hands in order to apply 1-1/2 times your Strength modifier to damage rolls.
Looks like it says the exact same thing to me.
Whoops, sorry. I misread your post and thought you were referencing the old rules that said that you couldn't attack an adjacent target. disregard.
Assuming no Improved Trip. If you attempted to trip an adjacent target with combat reflexes would you get AOO'ed twice? Once for using the whip and once for starting a trip CM?
Kizan
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Thanks for all the information and explanation!
This almost seems like the perfect weapon for a wizard or other non-combatant type person. You don't have to use it just holding it would provide TONS of threatened squares to provide flank or force creatures to make tumble checks (though taking the AOO's really aren't that bad). It seems like it might make someone a great flank-buddy.
Thanks again,
Kizan
As a caster you have too many feats invested in your casting to spend the necessary feats to make a whip threaten anything, much less not suck at everything because you do not have the support for it as a weapon.
Assuming no Improved Trip. If you attempted to trip an adjacent target with combat reflexes would you get AOO'ed twice? Once for using the whip and once for starting a trip CM?
Kizan
Yes. You provoke once for attacking and once for the combat maneuver is how I understand it. If your opponent can only perform one AoO per round then it is more or less the same. If you have more than one opponent threatening you, all can take the AoO for the swing, and the target can take the AoO for the trip attempt if he has an AoO remaining.
The target can choose which AoO opportunity he uses, if he only has one AoO, and should (IMO) take the one against the trip attempt, since any damage he does in that AoO would increase his CMD against the trip attempt.
Oh? I haven't seen that rule.