|
So...the FAQ says...
Witch, Fortune Hex: How often can a creature "benefit" from this hex? If it lasts more than one round, does it end after the first time it is used?
When a creature becomes the target of the fortune hex, it gains the benefit of that hex once per round, until the hex runs out, as determined by the level of the witch that created the effect. Once it ends, the creature cannot again be the target of that hex for 24 hours.
So the official FAQ is that the benefit of the fortune hex has been met when the round based on the witch level runs out...NOT the duration of the hex. So if you cackle as a witch less then level 8, you benefit from the 1 round that your level gives you for fortune according to how this is worded and cackle does nothing as you have met the requirements for what this FAQ says is what constitutes the term of benefit from this hex and can't gain the benefit for the next 24 hours. So basically...no fortune + cackle anymore? And no, don't go use whatever you want as a GM because this is for PFS...no GM fiat please. A player wanted to do this (and actually so do I)...but I seem to be getting shut down by what the FAQ says.
|
|
The problem isn't that cackle extends the duration...the problem is that the condition for what constitutes you benefit from this hex according to the FAQ is not based on the duration of the hex, but the duration of the hex BASED ON YOUR WITCH LEVEL. So extending the duration of this hex with cackle does not negate what constitutes when you have benefited from this hex and so whenever that duration of the hex based on your witch level (1 before 8 and 2 after 8 for PFS for all intents and purposes) hit, you have met the requirements for benefited from this hex and you can't gain said benefit again for 24 hours. Yes yes, nit pick...but fortune + cackle is one of those not really like combos...especially for the few months where you could argue to cackle twice a round to bank up fortune hex. This is for PFS...so these nit picks do actually matter.
|
I am just talking from my perspective here without the rulelawyering much, but why is fortune + cackle so much better combo then other combo's? During combat, it seems fine. If you tend to argue that you could have cackled however for few months, that simply wouldn't fly at my games because that's just stretching the rules. Even Mike himself said it to players, "Don't do it.", but that's already another topic.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The FAQ is not in the context of the Cackle ability; it is worded as if you were simply using Fortune, which, by default, lasts a number of rounds based on your witch level. Cackle is a specific exception to the rule, and specific trumps general. Otherwise, Cackle wouldn't work on any hex at all, as each non-instantaneous, non-permanent hex lists its duration.
|
|
The FAQ is not in the context of the Cackle ability; it is worded as if you were simply using Fortune, which, by default, lasts a number of rounds based on your witch level. Cackle is a specific exception to the rule, and specific trumps general. Otherwise, Cackle wouldn't work on any hex at all, as each non-instantaneous, non-permanent hex lists its duration.
Okay...that is more what I was looking for. That said, fortune unfortunately has a specific limited by duration based on witch level according to the FAQ that none of the other hexes have. So this isn't a case of a specific vs a general. This is a case of one specific in direct contradiction to another...and without rules lawyering it to a clear one way or the other, GM can call it either way in PFS...which is what I don't want to happen after I take the fortune hex.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I really think you're reading too much into this - cackle specifically states that Fortune is extended by one round.
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.
So we know that Fortune lasts 1 round by default, and at 8th and 16th level it'd last 2 and 3 rounds.
Cackle (Su): A witch can cackle madly as a move action. Any creature that is within 30 feet that is under the effects of an agony hex, charm hex, evil eye hex, fortune hex, or misfortune hex caused by the witch has the duration of that hex extended by 1 round.
And we now know that Cackle extends the duration of the Fortune Hex by one round for each action you spend cackling. So the duration would be default + x, where X is the number of rounds you spend cackling.
Think of it like how Extend Spell interacts with spell durations - Barkskin has a duration of 10 minutes per level. Cast an extended Barkskin, and the spell duration is now 20 minutes per level. Technically that means that the extended barkskin is contradicting its own spell description, but it is obvious that the extended duration is an intended effect.
|
|
Barkskin doesn't have something in the spell description that says when the duration of this spells ends based on your caster level, you can't gain the benefit of this spell anymore either. That is what the FAQ says. So yes, it should work, but I am not getting anything from the rules lawyer as to how you can negate that the FAQ says SPECIFICALLY that once the duration of the fortune hex FROM YOUR WITCH LEVEL and it is done, you have met the requirements for benefit of this hex and so can not gain the benefit anymore. A PFS GM can with the specifics of that FAQ says you gain 1-3 levels of fortune, based on your witch level and that is that...cackle does nothing. really at that point as increasing the duration doesn't negate that after 1-3 round, you have met the specific of the requirements of what is benefit of the hex and as such, you no longer gain the benefit of the hex. Remember that the issue is NOT THE DURATION OF THE HEX. It's the specific requirement of what constitutes meeting the benefit of the hex which then makes you unable to gain the benefit again for 24 hours.
And yes, I am reading pretty deep into this. 1) because the way that is written is kinda bad...they should not have used specifics, they should have use JUST duration and not duration based on witch levels...and 2) this combo is seriously hated around here...and so I want to shore up any and everything. So, I am not going for well it should work just fine...because I think it should work just fine. So that ain't ANY help to me at all. Tell me how to negate that specific that the duration based on witch level is there...or maybe have a dev member say it should just be duration (and you can fortune and cackle all day long if you so wish...well barring proof of Mike saying don't do it I suppose as that would negate that in PFS). Or IF it's suppose to be JUST your witch level durations, then cackle should be FAQ/errated to not include fortune.
|
|
The whole perception of cackling for several hours to prolong the mechanic of fortune isn't really something that GM can adjudicate or provide a specific value of how long it lasts. It might fly first time when you do it, but second or third time you will have problems with a GM. Hell, I would just tell player not to do it. We both know it's not really a fair thing and it only stretches the GM vs. PC conflicts.
I believe you already got an answer for Fortune and Cackle combination tho and I doubt this needs any FAQ or dev answers. I am sorry that I can't provide better answers, but the intention on hex seems pretty clear to me and I am known to be worst ruleslawyering GM around my PFS community.
I doubt you will get a FAQ clearing up this - at least to me the meaning is obvious (Fortune has a default duration that increases with witch levels, using Cackle adds to that duration as normal).
The FAQ you quoted was posted to clarify when in a round Fortune would end (does Fortune end immediately when used by the recipient?) - they don't cover Cackle in their reply since Cackle is not relevant to the FAQ question. If they no longer wanted Cackle to affect Fortune, they would have specifically stated so.
If FAQs had to cover every possible exception to the answer in every question they receive then the length of FAQs would quintuple and the rate which they were given would plummet.
All that said, Cackling all day long to keep Fortune up on your entire party is exactly the kind of rules abuse that will make GMs start looking through FAQs with a search light to find a way to shut you down. The ability is clearly not meant to be used for extended amounts of time.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I doubt you will get a FAQ clearing up this - at least to me the meaning is obvious (Fortune has a default duration that increases with witch levels, using Cackle adds to that duration as normal).
The FAQ you quoted was posted to clarify when in a round Fortune would end (does Fortune end immediately when used by the recipient?) - they don't cover Cackle in their reply since Cackle is not relevant to the FAQ question. If they no longer wanted Cackle to affect Fortune, they would have specifically stated so.If FAQs had to cover every possible exception to the answer in every question they receive then the length of FAQs would quintuple and the rate which they were given would plummet.
All that said, Cackling all day long to keep Fortune up on your entire party is exactly the kind of rules abuse that will make GMs start looking through FAQs with a search light to find a way to shut you down. The ability is clearly not meant to be used for extended amounts of time.
No kidding. "Fine, your party takes a -20 to all Stealth checks, and Laughing Boy can start making Con checks every minute to avoid self-inflicted laryngitis."
|
The whole perception of cackling for several hours to prolong the mechanic of fortune isn't really something that GM can adjudicate or provide a specific value of how long it lasts. It might fly first time when you do it, but second or third time you will have problems with a GM. Hell, I would just tell player not to do it. We both know it's not really a fair thing and it only stretches the GM vs. PC conflicts.
I believe you already got an answer for Fortune and Cackle combination tho and I doubt this needs any FAQ or dev answers. I am sorry that I can't provide better answers, but the intention on hex seems pretty clear to me and I am known to be worst ruleslawyering GM around my PFS community.
instead of individual GMs telling individual witches not to "Cackle Stack" outside of combat. How about we just get a general rules clarification that Cackle can only be used to extend the duration of a Hex during a single encounter/ while in combat. If there's broke rules, don't we fix them and complain about them, not just tell people not to do it. Telling them not to do it just sounds like, "Yes, this is allowed in the rules, and you can do it. But its very cheesy and I personally don't like it.", rather than "No, its not allowed in the rules, don't do it.".
Technically a witch cohort could use the scar hex and continuous cackling to provide Fortune hexes to the entire party for an arbitrarily large amount of time at a range of up to one mile.
Good luck finding a GM who won't shut that down in a hurry though - as indeed he should.
The whole perception of cackling for several hours to prolong the mechanic of fortune isn't really something that GM can adjudicate or provide a specific value of how long it lasts. It might fly first time when you do it, but second or third time you will have problems with a GM. Hell, I would just tell player not to do it. We both know it's not really a fair thing and it only stretches the GM vs. PC conflicts.
I believe you already got an answer for Fortune and Cackle combination tho and I doubt this needs any FAQ or dev answers. I am sorry that I can't provide better answers, but the intention on hex seems pretty clear to me and I am known to be worst ruleslawyering GM around my PFS community.
If someone wants to cackle for month let him make suffocation checks.
|
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
actually I just saw the Cackle FAQ
you can only cackle once per round. so witches can't cackle-stack anymore, they have to continually cackle. which sets GMs up to auto surprise the PCs every combat since they can hear the group coming.
Ah, I'm glad they clarified this issue.
As for the original question, I don't see any problem in the wording. The FAQ only addresses the issue of whether you get a reroll only once during the duration or once each round. Cackle is not discussed in the FAQ entry nor is it even implied that the FAQ entry changes how cackling works. "...as determined by the level of the witch that created the effect" doesn't contradict anything said in the misfortune hex description; rather, it's just a reference to the hex description. As such, it does nothing to change how the specific rule mentioned in the cackle hex works.
|
|
If someone wants to cackle for month let him make suffocation checks.
well, before the FAQ, when they could cackle 2/round, they could build up enough rounds of cackling by cackling for 12 hours to extend the fortune by at least 12 hours in advance, so they could sleep, and then continue cackling the next day. suddenly a week long voyage, becomes one week of Fortune on the party thanks to the witch.
In combat, i don't see a problem with cackle to extend fortune/misfortune, etc.
they have to keep within 30 ft. when the witch cackles, and it eats up the witch's move action. so sometimes he has to move, and then cackle to get everyone. ::shrug:: and most low level witches need to be in a position to Misfortune and Cackle in the same round to extend it. otherwise by the time its the witch's next turn, the duration has already expired. Most effects finish just before the start of your next turn. no?
|
|
instead of individual GMs telling individual witches not to "Cackle Stack" outside of combat. How about we just get a general rules clarification that Cackle can only be used to extend the duration of a Hex during a single encounter/ while in combat. If there's broke rules, don't we fix them and complain about them, not just tell people not to do it. Telling them not to do it just sounds like, "Yes, this is allowed in the rules, and you can do it. But its very cheesy and I personally don't like it.", rather than "No, its not allowed in the rules, don't do it.".
And what am I supposed to say a person who tries to do this? We both know it's breaking the game. I will be honest will player and ask him very nicely not to do it. That's it, nothing special about it.
Edit: Does it say somewhere that witch cannot Cackle 2/round ?
Um, how about "no" on the "single encounter/while in combat" thing? It's simple enough to adjudicate on a case-by-case basis. You don't have to ban anything to do it. Cackling all day is going to have plenty of negative consequences as it is. Penalties to Stealth, Perception, Diplomacy, and so on would apply, per the individual skill descriptions and per the GM's prerogative to apply situational modifiers at will.
That said, there are plenty of uses for Cackle outside of combat, and some of them I wouldn't even describe as an encounter, such as climbing a wall. This doesn't need a specific ruling, which, as thejeff mentioned, either leaves loopholes or shuts down perfectly reasonable uses of the ability.
instead of individual GMs telling individual witches not to "Cackle Stack" outside of combat. How about we just get a general rules clarification that Cackle can only be used to extend the duration of a Hex during a single encounter/ while in combat. If there's broke rules, don't we fix them and complain about them, not just tell people not to do it. Telling them not to do it just sounds like, "Yes, this is allowed in the rules, and you can do it. But its very cheesy and I personally don't like it.", rather than "No, its not allowed in the rules, don't do it.".
And what am I supposed to say a person who tries to do this? We both know it's breaking the game. I will be honest will player and ask him very nicely not to do it. That's it, nothing special about it.
Edit: Does it say somewhere that witch cannot Cackle 2/round ?
|
The issue is that Fortune is poorly written and hard to use and the first faq on it made it even harder to use with worse penalties then benefits.
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.
As written this is a once per day/per person power and is best used out of combat. Since as written it requires a Witch to spend a standard action AND an indeterminate number of move actions to MAYBE give a bonus to another player 1x per day.
The downside that once you give out a fortune buff you have given half your actions every round away makes this a less then useful power. Being able to stack the buff so you can actually move around was the only thing that really made this power worth taking.There were 2 easy ways to fix this hex to get it to work perfectly but the devs chose the worst possible way to do it and nerfed cackle instead making the witch even weaker and more prone to dying.
Instead of nerfing cackle the easiest way to avoid cackle stacking was to enforce the language written into the hex as it was written, ie. allow the target to "benefit" from the hex 1x per day. Period.
Use that interpretation where the target gets one free re-roll a day no matter how long the witch cackles. Easy, no confusion and comparable to every other re-roll power in the game while still making the witch a desirable party members.
IMHO a better way would have been to re-write the power to work like the Ward hex(minus the 1 target at a time rule). The witch buffs the target(s) with a fortune and it sits on them until used. No cackle needed and no confusion and scales nicely with level. Also the onus of when to use the buff is on the target not the witch and doesn't unfairly penalize the witch if they take the hex.
Every witch who has this power knows the start of every fight is at least 1 party member screaming fortune me and you spend the rest of the battle cackling until they actually use the buff and half the time they never use it. I do believe my PFS witch will be re-training this feat into something else this before he gets played again.
|
I believe I disagree with Mathwei's interpretation of how Fortune+Cackle works today.
I agree that this combination uses one standard action from the witch, and an indefinite number of move actions. But I don't believe the recipient is limited to getting the benefit on one and only one roll; I believe the buff applies once a round until the witch stops cackling. So I can decide to buff a party member, and until I stop cackling they can, once a round, effectively take the higher of two rolls on a d20 roll of their choice.
Personally I still think cackling goes better with the misfortune hex. Fortune is already limited to once per round (unlike misfortune, which applies to every applicable roll); further limiting it to just working on one roll in total seems far too restrictive to me.
|
|
I believe I disagree with Mathwei's interpretation of how Fortune+Cackle works today.
I agree that this combination uses one standard action from the witch, and an indefinite number of move actions. But I don't believe the recipient is limited to getting the benefit on one and only one roll; I believe the buff applies once a round until the witch stops cackling. So I can decide to buff a party member, and until I stop cackling they can, once a round, effectively take the higher of two rolls on a d20 roll of their choice.
Personally I still think cackling goes better with the misfortune hex. Fortune is already limited to once per round (unlike misfortune, which applies to every applicable roll); further limiting it to just working on one roll in total seems far too restrictive to me.
You should probably read what's written before disagreeing with it.
As written this is a once per day/per person power
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round (...) At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.
Fortune does not end when the recipient uses the reroll ability - it ends when the duration of Fortune expires. As long as Fortune is active (either though Cackles or because the witch is level 8+), the recipient can use the Fortune bonus to reroll a roll once per round.
You should probably read what's written before disagreeing with it.
Would you mind rereading your own post while you're at it?
|
|
As written this is a once per day/per person powerFortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round (...) At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.Fortune does not end when the recipient uses the reroll ability - it ends when the duration of Fortune expires. As long as Fortune is active (either though Cackles or because the witch is level 8+), the recipient can use the Fortune bonus to reroll a roll once per round.
You should probably read what's written before disagreeing with it.Would you mind rereading your own post while you're at it?
Again a lack of reading comprehension, here I'll spell it out.
First the duration of this hex is 1 round (at 8th it becomes 2 rounds and 16th it becomes 3 rounds), that means one encounter. Now if you use cackle to extend it then your constant cackling alerts everything within about 100 feet that you're there so they'll come investigate extending that encounter. If there's nothing that close you are now moving at half speed (only 1 move action per round now) so even the dwarf and full plate wearers are passing you. While making an obscene amount of noise drawing everything to you.
That makes the first encounter of the day become a single, long drawn out fight the whole way.
If you don't use cackle then after you apply it to a target they can't be affected by it again for 24 hours hence the once per day limitation.
As for what I wrote... well I wrote it so I know what it means. I'm guessing you both missed the part where I wrote
There were 2 easy ways to fix this hex to get it to work perfectly but the devs chose the worst possible way to do it
as alternatives to how it currently works.
It's ok, I've skimmed a post before and missed an important sentence or two in the middle of a paragraph before too.|
|
...As written this is a once per day/per person powerFortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round (...) At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round.Fortune does not end when the recipient uses the reroll ability - it ends when the duration of Fortune expires. As long as Fortune is active (either though Cackles or because the witch is level 8+), the recipient can use the Fortune bonus to reroll a roll once per round.
You should probably read what's written before disagreeing with it.Would you mind rereading your own post while you're at it?Again a lack of reading comprehension, here I'll spell it out.
First the duration of this hex is 1 round (at 8th it becomes 2 rounds and 16th it becomes 3 rounds), that means one encounter. Now if you use cackle to extend it then your constant cackling alerts everything within about 100 feet that you're there so they'll come investigate extending that encounter. If there's nothing that close you are now moving at half speed (only 1 move action per round now) so even the dwarf and full plate wearers are passing you. While making an obscene amount of noise drawing everything to you.
That makes the first encounter of the day become a single, long drawn out fight the whole way.If you don't use cackle then after you apply it to a target they can't be affected by it again for 24 hours hence the once per day limitation.
As for what I wrote... well I wrote it so I know what it means. I'm guessing you both missed the part where I wrote
There were 2 easy ways to fix this hex to get it to work perfectly but the devs chose the worst possible way to do itas alternatives to how it currently works.
It's ok, I've skimmed a post before and missed an
A fight is quick and dirty and over in less than a minute giving you the chance that the guards missed it or don't know where the fight was. A cackling witch is a steady, regular beacon letting everyone know exactly where you are at all times. I see it going more like this:
"Hey Frank, do you hear that crazy cackling noise? It sounds like it's coming this way. Go tell the guys to wake up, this is creepy. Better tell the boss too."
As for the mount or flight option.. Not really. You're still limited to a single move action so the go to spell (overland flight) means you go 40' a round while everyone else does 60 (or more if they are flying) and the mount is squishier then you and dies CONSTANTLY so is un-dependable as a means of transport. Not to mention hit a dungeon or cavern or underwater or aerial or just bad terrain and the mount can't go with you.
|
|
Yes, it got FAQ'd.
instead of individual GMs telling individual witches not to "Cackle Stack" outside of combat. How about we just get a general rules clarification that Cackle can only be used to extend the duration of a Hex during a single encounter/ while in combat. If there's broke rules, don't we fix them and complain about them, not just tell people not to do it. Telling them not to do it just sounds like, "Yes, this is allowed in the rules, and you can do it. But its very cheesy and I personally don't like it.", rather than "No, its not allowed in the rules, don't do it.".
And what am I supposed to say a person who tries to do this? We both know it's breaking the game. I will be honest will player and ask him very nicely not to do it. That's it, nothing special about it.
Edit: Does it say somewhere that witch cannot Cackle 2/round ?
Doh, thanks. I guess my eye was flying in the wrong direction.