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Witch's fortune hex


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Staff response: no reply required.

The hex in the title reads like so:

Fortune Hex wrote:
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round. The target can call upon this good luck once per round, allowing him to reroll any ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, taking the better result. He must decide to use this ability before the first roll is made. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. Once a creature has benefited from the fortune hex, it cannot benefit from it again for 24 hours.

Emphasis mine. What exactly does "benefit from" mean for this hex? Does benefit mean when the person under this hex has actually used this ability, or does benefit mean has had this hex placed upon them. In other words, 1) if a fighter under the fortune hex goes his 1 round without actually using it, can it be reapplied on him?

And...

2) What about in later levels when this thing lasts for more than 1 round? If a fighter gets this placed on him by a 16th level witch, and uses the fortune hex ability in his first allotted round, does that mean it's over and done and can't be used for the remaining 2 rounds he has access to it?


I believe the way it works is that once the hex is on you once, whether you use it or not, you cannot be hexed again for 24 hours. Reading too far into "...benefited from..." can be dangerous (if you roll two 1's on an attack roll, I wouldn't necessarily say that you benefited from the effect), so simply saying that "once you're affected by it, you're immune for 24 hours" is the best way to go.

If the hex has a duration, you gain the benefit of it for that duration.


Its unclear whether "benefitted" means effected or has gained the use of.
I'd say that they can use the hex on you once a day- whether you opt to use it or not in your 1 or 2 or 3 rounds is up to you.

At later levels it looks like they can use it once a round for 1, 2, or 3 rounds.

Also keep in mind- this hex is modified by Cackle as well.. so you could in theory keep it up for a long, long time.

Note- nowhere in the description does it say the effect ends once you make use it. It just says it lasts for X rounds and can be used once a round.

so at first level:
hex fighter
fighter has until his next initiative count to use the effect or it goes away

or hex fighter + cackle
fighter has 2 rounds to use it and can use it once for each of those rounds.

at 8th add a round to that, and so on noting that if at any time they run out of either inherent or "cackle extended" rounsds then that effect is gone for the day.

-S

Grand Lodge

Selgard wrote:
Note- nowhere in the description does it say the effect ends once you make use it. It just says it lasts for X rounds and can be used once a round.

That was part of question 2 for me. I read it that way too and began to wonder if "benefit from" meant make use of it, effectively losing the remaining rounds of usage. All higher levels allowed was to extend the duration to give you a wider window of opportunity to use it.


I'm not saying it can't be read that way- but I really do not think it does.

If you read it your way you take and already sub-par hex and make it absolutely craptastic.
I mean its arleady once a round then ends (until 8th and 16th level) unless you also cackle- which means your fortune just burned a full round actin and you have to stay within 30 of him until he uses it for it to work at all.

that just makes it pretty much worthless, and makes the fact that it extneds a few rounds into the future nearly (but not completely) meaningless.

However I think the important langauge here is:

"The target can call upon this good luck once per round"

There's no reason for it to say once a round if once you used it, it expired.
No, you can use it once a round for as many rounds as the Fortune hex is active- whether through high level, cackle, or both.

Otherwise it would say "The target can call upon this good luck once."

-S


Selgard wrote:

I'm not saying it can't be read that way- but I really do not think it does.

If you read it your way you take and already sub-par hex and make it absolutely craptastic.
I mean its arleady once a round then ends (until 8th and 16th level) unless you also cackle- which means your fortune just burned a full round actin and you have to stay within 30 of him until he uses it for it to work at all.

that just makes it pretty much worthless, and makes the fact that it extneds a few rounds into the future nearly (but not completely) meaningless.

However I think the important langauge here is:

"The target can call upon this good luck once per round"

There's no reason for it to say once a round if once you used it, it expired.
No, you can use it once a round for as many rounds as the Fortune hex is active- whether through high level, cackle, or both.

Otherwise it would say "The target can call upon this good luck once."

-S

Pretty much this. We are not saying that the RAW is incorrect in how the ability works. The mechanics the RAW provide does require the bearer to use its benefit at least once for the effect to no longer be castable on the target.

I believe that with the mechanics the RAW states for it, the RAW should be applied as to its recastability. Meaning if a character does not perform an action that requires a D20 roll for that round (and does not use the hex's benefits), the RAW would allow the Witch to recast the Hex on the target again.

But as far as a DM or Gaming Community would interpret the rule? They would say that since you cast the Hex on him, he received the benefit, and wouldn't be cast on again. Technically? You would be able to cast the Hex on them again if they didn't use the benefit it grants (that is, allows only one typical D20 roll to have the character roll 2 D20's, and take the better/more favorable number).

However, if you Cackle the Hex, and the character receives the benefits, the duration is still the duration. Just because they used the benefit doesn't mean they still can't use it. It's just once the duration expires (with usage according to RAW), that's it. They can't receive the Hex again until the said allotted cooldown time elapses.

@ Sel

I am confused as to how the Witch has to constantly be within 30 feet of the target she hexes for it to work. I would agree the range would be needed for her to Cackle or even Apply the Hex to begin with; however, if the Witch were to move further than 30 feet away from the target, the Hex should still work regardless of the witch's range. (I'm sorry if what I just mentioned was the original intent behind the statement, but I am not truly sure if that is what you truly meant.)


The benefit is being hexed.

How long that benefit lasts depends entirely on how long the witch uses Cackle to keep it going.


StreamOfTheSky wrote:

The benefit is being hexed.

How long that benefit lasts depends entirely on how long the witch uses Cackle to keep it going.

That's RAI, which isn't really wrong. However, the RAW doesn't specifically state what the "Benefit" is considered to be. The wording would suggest that the hex itself isn't the Benefit, but the character utilizing the effect (which technically [b]is[/i] the benefit) it grants, is what is classified as the Benefit.

It also goes on to say that the character who uses the Hex's effect, actually can't use the Hex's effect again for 24 Hours if that were the case. Poorly worded RAW would leave us to say that the Fortune Hex is worthless, since it only works for 1 D20 roll for one character, at best (they might not even get the chance to use it, and once they use it, they can't use it again).

But of course, that's what the RAW would leave us to believe. And I sure as hell doubt that the creators wanted to word the text/description of the Hex like that. So we must resort to RAI, which can easily vary in multiple paths from what they want us to interpret the ability. (Everyone should FAQ this, since the RAW is poorly worded as to their intent, which makes the ability easily dumbed down beyond belief.)

I will, however, stick as close to the RAW as I can, which is that the character can be cast by the Hex again, if they do not use the D20 effect; but if they do use it at least once, when the hex's duration runs out, they can't benefit from the Hex again.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Selgard wrote:

I'm not saying it can't be read that way- but I really do not think it does.

If you read it your way you take and already sub-par hex and make it absolutely craptastic.
I mean its arleady once a round then ends (until 8th and 16th level) unless you also cackle- which means your fortune just burned a full round actin and you have to stay within 30 of him until he uses it for it to work at all.

that just makes it pretty much worthless, and makes the fact that it extneds a few rounds into the future nearly (but not completely) meaningless.

However I think the important langauge here is:

"The target can call upon this good luck once per round"

There's no reason for it to say once a round if once you used it, it expired.
No, you can use it once a round for as many rounds as the Fortune hex is active- whether through high level, cackle, or both.

Otherwise it would say "The target can call upon this good luck once."

-S

Pretty much this. We are not saying that the RAW is incorrect in how the ability works. The mechanics the RAW provide does require the bearer to use its benefit at least once for the effect to no longer be castable on the target.

I believe that with the mechanics the RAW states for it, the RAW should be applied as to its recastability. Meaning if a character does not perform an action that requires a D20 roll for that round (and does not use the hex's benefits), the RAW would allow the Witch to recast the Hex on the target again.

But as far as a DM or Gaming Community would interpret the rule? They would say that since you cast the Hex on him, he received the benefit, and wouldn't be cast on again. Technically? You would be able to cast the Hex on them again if they didn't use the benefit it grants (that is, allows only one typical D20 roll to have the character roll 2 D20's, and take the better/more favorable number).

However, if you Cackle the Hex, and the character receives the benefits, the duration is still the duration. Just...

Have to be within 30 ft (the range of cackle) to keep the duration up. Thats the only range limitation of keeping it going once applied.

as to 'benefitting'.
Your character has the benefit of the hex once used on him. Whether or not they choose to use that benefit is up to them. Once it expires, they have to wait until the next day to gain the effect again.

Think of it like this:
If I cast Resistance on you and you make no saving throw during the duration- did you get the benefit of the spell or not?
Absolutely.
If I cast water breathing on you and you never go under water you still received the benefit- it just didn't do you anyg ood. Not because the spell failed to function but because the circumstances didn't arise to allow you to use it.

This hex works in the same fashion. if Wally Witch uses Fortune on Cindy Crafter then she has the benefit of the hex. Now, she can use it or ignore it that's up to her. But once the duration is expended, then its gone.

The duration is 6, 12, or 18 seconds + cackle extensions. Whether you use it or not during that time frame you have received its benefit. Choosing not to exercise it doesn't mean you didn't gain the benefit.

-S

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

6 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 9 people marked this as a favorite.

Basically.. its this.

Once the hex has been put on you, it lasts for a number of rounds depending on the witch's level. During that time, you get the benefit (each round). After that time ends, you must wait 24 hours before you can have this hex put on you again.

In this case, "benefit from" should be read as "have this put on you".. which is quite a bit more clunky. I would not try to read too much into it. Although, I think it is well within the GMs purview to state that if you had it put on you, but did not use it at all during its duration, that you did not benefit, but I would leave that up to the GM to decide.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Late night board surfer


I am always curious whether designers were aware, that one could hire one or even several level 1 halfling/gnome witches, pack them together with a bottle of breathing in handy metal backpacks hardness 10(weighing with halfling/gnome witch probably not more than 50 lb) and have them fortune them all at the beginning of day and the the witches cackle all day, keeping up fortune hex for all day, since cackle does not stop at walls.

Setup cost not more than 10 K GP + payment for witch, which is probably only 100 GP per day. 20 K if its an adamantine container, so the witch is realy save. Awesome price for nearly permanent fortune. Only problem hardness ignoring monsters.

With leadership one could have dozens of halfling/gnome witches level 1 willing to be hired.

But probably so ridicolous that no GM will ever allow it.

Grand Lodge

Thanks, Jason. I'm glad I asked because that's not how I read it at first, but was suspicious.

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Basically.. its this.

Once the hex has been put on you, it lasts for a number of rounds depending on the witch's level. During that time, you get the benefit (each round). After that time ends, you must wait 24 hours before you can have this hex put on you again.

In this case, "benefit from" should be read as "have this put on you".. which is quite a bit more clunky. I would not try to read too much into it. Although, I think it is well within the GMs purview to state that if you had it put on you, but did not use it at all during its duration, that you did not benefit, but I would leave that up to the GM to decide.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Late night board surfer

Thank you very much for this clarification, I've avoided taking this hex until I knew exactly how it works since it is so unclear on how it works.

Any chance this could be added to the Faq so we can end the debate on this?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Basically.. its this.

Once the hex has been put on you, it lasts for a number of rounds depending on the witch's level. During that time, you get the benefit (each round). After that time ends, you must wait 24 hours before you can have this hex put on you again.

In this case, "benefit from" should be read as "have this put on you".. which is quite a bit more clunky. I would not try to read too much into it. Although, I think it is well within the GMs purview to state that if you had it put on you, but did not use it at all during its duration, that you did not benefit, but I would leave that up to the GM to decide.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Late night board surfer

Thank you very much for this clarification, I've avoided taking this hex until I knew exactly how it works since it is so unclear on how it works.

Any chance this could be added to the Faq so we can end the debate on this?

...wasn't it just ended?


Cheapy wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:

[

Any chance this could be added to the Faq so we can end the debate on this?
...wasn't it just ended?

Temporarily. But it'll be back.

If it's in the FAQ it's easier to point to than: "I remember this got answered in a thread somewhere."


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And then they link the thread and all is good in the world :D

It being in the FAQ wouldn't hurt though.


Cheapy wrote:

And then they link the thread and all is good in the world :D

It being in the FAQ wouldn't hurt though.

I agree that it should be in the FAQ. I mean, the wording can be confusing and actually dumb down the usage of the hex, but that is how it is worded. If the Benefit according to the RAW is the effect you use, you can only use the effect once every 24 hours, as per the RAW's statement, making it really seem not so impressive.

Of course, many players and GM's overlook this (unknowingly or otherwise), but as to how it was worded, that is how it works in terms of mechanics for the gameplay.

At least the Pathfinder creator himself cleared up the text for us in terms of their intent, and applied the fix so everyone should know the mechanics (; that is, when the FAQ answer is applied in a future book release or on the PFSRD site, of course).

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber
Cheapy wrote:

And then they link the thread and all is good in the world :D

It being in the FAQ wouldn't hurt though.

Unfortunately unless it's actually in a faq posting it's not considered legal for PFS or others. They made the statement awhile ago that message board posts weren't "OFFICIAL" until it's been added into one of the FAQS.


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

And then they link the thread and all is good in the world :D

It being in the FAQ wouldn't hurt though.

Unfortunately unless it's actually in a faq posting it's not considered legal for PFS or others. They made the statement awhile ago that message board posts weren't "OFFICIAL" until it's been added into one of the FAQS.

How does that apply to something like this, where it's more of a clarification than a change?

Does it just mean people should keep arguing about it in a PFS context?

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

And then they link the thread and all is good in the world :D

It being in the FAQ wouldn't hurt though.

Unfortunately unless it's actually in a faq posting it's not considered legal for PFS or others. They made the statement awhile ago that message board posts weren't "OFFICIAL" until it's been added into one of the FAQS.

Basically, it's like this:

If there's ambiguity in the rules, the PFS GM makes a call. If there's something in the FAQ, the GM is required to abide by it (though if a PC uses something clarified/modified in the FAQ, they're supposed to bring a printout so the GM doesn't have to have everything memorized).

Being aware of every messageboard clarification is not something we can reasonably expect of every GM - they don't all have the time to scour the boards for every such post. Therefore, they are officially not required to abide by messageboard clarifications, because they're not required to be aware of them.

However, two things of note:
1) If a GM knows that The Red Dragon Himself has clarified how a rule works, but doesn't like it and says "Good thing it's not official so I can still do the opposite!", that's a dick move.
2) If a player brings evidence of a messageboard clarification with an attitude of "Now I made you aware of it, so you're a dick if you don't follow it!" is also a dick move.

Paizo Employee Lead Designer

No need to argue over what is "official" folks. I'll get this added to the FAQ.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Cheliax

Pathfinder Modules Subscriber

This is why I like this company, folks respond to the things you find and actually pay attention to their customers.
It's weird, I'm not used to it.


Jason Bulmahn wrote:

No need to argue over what is "official" folks. I'll get this added to the FAQ.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Thanks a bunch, it helps out for those who are still confused by the rules (or take the rules too literally).

Of course, the basic intent is pretty obvious; however, it was still arguable that the RAW would severely limit the powers of the Hex, and if a GM/Gamer Community took the RAW 100%, it would make the Hex seem absolutely worthless. For intent purposes, it is (thankfully) not the case.

@ Maethwei

I agree, I am actually surprised that the Pathfinder creator himself showed up and revised/interpreted the RAW for all to understand as a FAQ. Though, another quick question is, where do the FAQ's get added to; the PFSRD site, or is it on this one in a different page?

Shadow Lodge

when threads like this even get posted, it makes me fear for humanity. When they reach 20 or so posts, I just sigh.


Kthulhu wrote:
when threads like this even get posted, it makes me fear for humanity. When they reach 20 or so posts, I just sigh.

Honestly; I do agree that something like this is a little..."enigmatic" as to why it gets brought up as a question, but reading into the RAW did bring up a valid point as to the purpose of the thread/question.

The RAW stated that the Witch's Hex benefit (which is the Fortune hex for the example of this thread) cannot be used more than once every 24 Hours. We could say that the Hex is the Benefit, but the RAW's wording disproved that, since it is actually the effect of the Hex. Taking that rule into 100% context (a little ridiculous I know, but there are people and players that do this sort of thing), the Witch's Hex effect for the Fortune could only be utilized once every 24 Hours, which according to RAW, is how the Hex would work.

It is obviously underpowered in that regard, and thusly much less viable, but it is still a valid complaint/argument, because it really questions the RAI.

The biggest conspiracy in regards to the question proposed from this thread is that the RAW is massively overlooked or disregarded, and judging by your response, you are one of those people. Of course, many others are labeled under this action, my group included.

Looking into it more closely, it was obviously worded poorly, and needed fixing so that the creators could get the intent and mechanics of the ability across without issue or confusion (which can happen on any rule or combination of such, hence the purpose of the Messageboards for Ruling Questions).

Granted, there are people who obviously judged the intent of the wording/mechanics, my group included. At the same time, there are players/people who question the intent or ruling of the wording/mechanics, and that is why threads like these are made. A little ridiculous? In some eyes, yes, and others no. Is it fair and courteous to call them a bunch of idiots because they have a question or discrepency with the RAW that is actually a valid point upon further inspection? Hardly.


I have question can things like the fortune and healing hexes be used by the witch on her/ himself?


The 8th Dwarf wrote:
I have question can things like the fortune and healing hexes be used by the witch on her/ himself?

I do know for a fact that the Healing Hex can be used on the Witch class/character itself, but can only do so once per 24 hours (as the description + FAQ indicates).

The Fortune Hex, I don't see why not. Unless it is stated within the description of the Hex (it probably is, don't take my word on it though), saying the Witch can't target herself with it isn't exactly much of a stretch or cheat, since they still need to sacrifice a full round just to keep it constantly activated; they'd then need to sacrifice a move action each round afterward as upkeep to maintain it, only leaving a standard action for utilization.


You are your own ally, and you can certainly touch yourself.

Shadow Lodge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
...and you can certainly touch yourself.

*snickers*


I have been trying to find the answer to this for a while, which seemed pretty straight forward until I read about 8 million posts by Mathwei ap Niall. He was relentlessly pushing some his point about how the wording of the hex meant you only got one re roll EVER and twisting other peoples points into giving his opinion credibility.
I now think Mathwei ap Niall's many posts on this subject are the funniest things I have read on here.


Is this in an FAQ someplace now, I can't find it

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