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Hello community,
this is my first post in these forums and I want to share a combo I came up with the other day, while I was experimenting with Mythic Adventures and it is about the spell Mythic Feather Fall and an extremely powerful combo that you can create.
Mythic Feather Fall by default doubles the number of targets that you can affect and removes the range limitations of the normal spell. The interesting part is its augmented version, where is says that:
"If you expend two uses of mythic power,
the spell absorbs the targets' velocity and transforms it into a
concussive blast. Targets fall at the normal rate (not slowed)
but land safely. When a target lands, it creates a 1 0-foot - radius
burst of force that deals 1 d 6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 5 d 6, Reflex half, DC equal to the DC of feather fall).
The targets of this spell are unaffected by these concussive blasts."
Normally, feather fall can affect up to 1 creature or object/level. Its mythic version affects 2/level. Now this is where is gets interesting. Since you can target medium or smaller objects is you want, you can always carry with you small stones or coins and drop them over your opponent. This will deal 200d6 damage with a reflex for half. However is does not stop here.
Archmage's Abundant Casting allows you to add your tier to the number of targets affected by the spell. In addition, Channel Power (again from Archmage) allows you to increase the damage of a spell by 50% for 1 mythic power. Add Intensify spell, Empower spell and Maximize spell and the combo grows immensely in power.
Let's do the math.
With Intensify, the damage of each blast increases to 10d6. Empower spell and Channel Power increase this damage to 20d6, which is then Maximized to 120 damage per object affected. Empower also increases the number of targets affected by half. At level 20/ tier 10 you can target 50 objects, which increase to 75, after empower.
The final damage is 75*120 for a humble 9000 points of damage in a 10 ft radium allowing a reflex for half and ignoring spell resistance, costing 1 spell and 3 mythic power.
Certainly the DC is low as it is just a 1st level spell, but with the exception of the Evasion ability, every other creature in the books is obliterated. And the best part is that even a bard can do it.
What are your opinions?
Maximize spell notes that ALL variable, numeric effects of a spell are maximized. This means that even the extra 5d6 from Intensify are maximized as well. Maximize is an effect that is applied at the end of a spell.
Intensify on the other hand, is something that affects the base damage of a spell, which means that it just increases its damage cap. So it is applied at the beginning. On the other hand, Empower and Channel Power increase the damage by 50% each, which by base math means that they add up for 100% extra damage.
That being told, it doesn't even matter if you apply these 2 or maximize first. The end result is always going to be 120 damage per object.
At least, that's how I interpret it.
I can see a few problems with this combo.
One, empower only works on random variables, so no 50% increase in targets there.
Two, empower damage is NOT maximized, but is still rolled as normal IIRC.
Three, and this one is just interpretation on my part, but targeting a creature/square with this would be a touch attack vs AC 10 or the creatures normal touch AC, depending on if you target a square or not. And I believe a missed attack roll would fall under grenade-like weapon rulings to determine the actual center point of the spell.
Other than that, I see no reason for it not to work as you intend, barring FAQ/errata that nerfs this combo.
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So where's that Fighter equivalent of this ability?
I mean come on, the melee guys need to have some nice things too.
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So where's that Fighter equivalent of this ability?
I mean come on, the melee guys need to have some nice things too.
Seven League Leap is pretty neat (I definitely want to build a Ninja around using this to get around. Teleport? F@@& THAT. I CAN JUMP.). As is the one that lets you bull through doors and walls stupid enough to get in your way during a Charge.
"We're safe from the Barbarian behind this wall OH MY GOD WHYYYYY?!??!?!"
The equivalent of the instakill attack would be Mythic Vital Strike, of course.
And that one doesn't rely on what seems to be a loophole.
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FEATHER FALL
The spell affects one additional target per level. The targets don’t have to be within 20 feet of each other.
Augmented (4th): If you expend two uses of mythic power, the spell absorbs the targets’ velocity and transforms it into a concussive blast. Targets fall at the normal rate (not slowed) but land safely. When a target lands, it creates a 10-foot-radius burst of force that deals 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 5d6, Reflex half, DC equal to the DC of feather fall).
The targets of this spell are unaffected by these concussive blasts.
I see some problem with the OP interpretation:
1) The damage is dealt by the spell, not by the objects. So the source of the damage is one and the damage don't stack with itself.
The effect is great to blanket a large area with moderate damage, not for a huge level of damage in a single area.
2) the OP assume that dropping a handful of pebbles don't count as an action. True if you are dropping them to free your hand, not true if you are dropping them to hit a location.
That is an attack.
Guess what? Even with a full attack and a BAB of +20 you are limited to the number of attacks you can make.
3) The attacks are sequential, not simultaneous. So there is a problem on the timing of the casting of Feather fall.
FF is a targeted spell. It is a "bit" hard to target a pebble that you have dropped 4-5 seconds ago. In free fall it has traveled between 80' and 120'.
4)
Range
A spell’s range indicates how far from you it can reach, as defined in the range entry of the spell description. A spell’s range is the maximum distance from you that the spell’s effect can occur, as well as the maximum distance at which you can designate the spell’s point of origin. [b]If any portion of the spell’s area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.[b] Standard ranges include the following
The mythic Feather fall power don't change the range of the spell, it say "The targets don’t have to be within 20 feet of each other."
Your spell range is still 25'+5'/2 levels, a total of 75', so at most you can affect a target that is no more than 75' from you.So some of your free falling objects will be outside of the range of your spell if you are aiming them at a specific location and making attacks.
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To sum it up, Mythic Feather Fall is great for a combat drop that will clear the landing area of low level troops or weak obstacles, not so good if you want to target a specific square.
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Edit:
Someone can define what kind of damage is a "concussive blast" in Pathfinder?
As written it seem a form of non magical bashing damage, but as it is generated by a spell it could be a form of magical attack.
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Ok. Because there is confusion about this combo, allow me to explain.
First of all, the objects that you drop need not fall in the same square as the target, because the blast they create covers a 10-ft radius. Since you let them fall, rather than throwing them, it is a free action.
Second, the spell notes clearly that damage is dealt "when a target lands", literally meaning that each time a target lands it deals the damage.
Third, there is absolutely no problem with the casting time of feather fall after you let the objects drop, since it is an immediate action. Even if you are a spontaneous caster and applying metamagic would mean that the casting time is increased, there is still the Rod of Quicken Spell, or since we are talking about Mythic here, Wild Arcana, which lets you cast ANY spell as a swift action. So, in any condition, you manage to affect all objects.
Finally, concerning Empower Spell, Pathfinder has really destroyed the description of the feat, due to the poor details they offer. The description in the Core Rulebook states that "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls" and it stops there.
Luckily there is still the description from 3,5 Player's Handbook, which mentions that "All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, and so forth, as appropriate".
As for the Empower + Maximize combo, you are right, as it seems that Empower damage is rolled separately. It doesn't make that much difference in the total picture though. It will just drop the damage of the combo by 1-2 thousand.
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A few nitpicks:
I agree with others that Empower does not affect the number of targets. That 3.5 language refers to spells with variable (die based) numbers of targets - e.g. "1d4 creatures."
Quick pointer: if you're dropping the rocks, you are in their square and thus taking all this damage too, unless you use up a target to exclude yourself.
Let's be generous and apply Channel power before Maximize. Each rock now does 90+5d6 damage. Each allows a save against a first level spell for half. Feather fall certainly allows SR, it's right there in the description, so one bad SR roll shuts the whole thing down. So you get 49 blasts, which is 4410+245d6. Pretty big damage. But you are spending an 7th level spell to do it, at level 20. And this trick is completely shut down by spell immunity or globe of invulnerability, as the whole thing is still actually a 1st level spell.
If you presume you are flying high enough up to be above the blasts, I would make dropping them anywhere "on target" a standard action, as it can be difficult to judge when you're directly above something.
For an easily avoidable trick involving mutiple feats, path abilities, and uses of mythic power, I don't really have a problem with this. It's certainly a solid combo.
What about falling together with the rest of the targets? Mythic Feather Fall makes you immune to its damage if it affects you. Furthermore, Channel Power makes you ignore SR completely and if you use Wild Arcana you do not even expend a spell slot.
The good thing about this combo is that it does not require you to take feats or path abilities that suck. All parts of the combo are useful by themselves and are solid choices for most wizard/sorcerer builds.
Besides this, there are certainly ways to avoid it (though most creatures in the bestiaries can't), but honestly, who the heck includes Feather Fall when he casts Spell Immunity???
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Seven League Leap is pretty neat (I definitely want to build a Ninja around using this to get around. Teleport? F+!& THAT. I CAN JUMP.). As is the one that lets you bull through doors and walls stupid enough to get in your way during a Charge.
"We're safe from the Barbarian behind this wall OH MY GOD WHYYYYY?!??!?!"
The equivalent of the instakill attack would be Mythic Vital Strike, of course.
And that one doesn't rely on what seems to be a loophole.
Ah yes. The Kool-Aid Man Combo. With a Marshal in the party you can turn that into the Kool-Aid Man Chain Combo. Aka. HULK SMASH.
Local injoke. WALL BANE Brother of DOOR BANE!
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So where's that Fighter equivalent of this ability?
I mean come on, the melee guys need to have some nice things too.
Quickfall.
The fighter's downward movement is not impeded in any way.
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Besides this, there are certainly ways to avoid it (though most creatures in the bestiaries can't), but honestly, who the heck includes Feather Fall when he casts Spell Immunity???
A CR 25+ foe who knows its enemy's signature move?
This is a great one-off attack. Use it too regularly, and powerful and intelligent enemies will take the minor steps required to counter it.
But true, globe of invulnerability is the far more likely counter.
Also, hope you're not doing this indoors...that much damage will seriously harm inanimate objects in the area, pretty much disintegrating everything in a 10' bubble. Hope those weren't load bearing structures. You also have a good chance of annihilating your treasure...40+ saving throws means some 1s will be rolled, and then the enemies stuff takes 1000s of damage as well. Unattended stuff will just be gone. Your 5000+ points of damage is enough to destroy more than 100 feet of solid stone, so you end up carving out a hemispherical crater in the ground 10 feet deep as well.
Though the visual effect of the mage pulling out a sack of pebbles, dropping them, and having them zoom super fast towards the ground where they unleash Explosion of Doom is a pretty epic idea.
A CR 25+ foe who knows its enemy's signature move?This is a great one-off attack. Use it too regularly, and powerful and intelligent enemies will take the minor steps required to counter it.
You are right about this one. The only reason I created this attack was to show our DM how deadly an innocent spell like Feather Fall can become. I haven't used it yet in the campaign and I am planning to use it only once, just to show off. I am playing a skill-based supporter Bard btw :D
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Hasn't anyone noticed the spell you're using?
Feather Fall?
So, your enemies see the mighty, mythic wizard drop some floating rocks and they... move out of the way.
No, because augmented mythic Feather Fall causes the objects to fall at their normal speed. This means that before your turn is over, they have already landed. Technically speaking, since the spell is cast in an instant, you can release the pebbles just a few feet from the ground and still manage to cast it. So, no, the enemies don't have time to avoid it.
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I was thinking some more about this, and the real place this tactic is broken is at 5th level. You don't even need all the path abilities or metamagic feats, just the ability to cast the mythic version.
A 5th level caster targeting themselves and 9 rocks dropped from their hand does 45d6 damage(9 packets of 5d6 save for half), for an average of 157.5 damage in a 10 foot radius, for casting a level 1 spell at 5th level. That seems rather extreme for level 5, even with mythic factored in, and the easy counters aren't really available yet.
I'm going to go with a personal ruling that the spell can only deal damage once per casting, no matter how many overlapping areas there are. Rare is the effect that lets you "double dip" on caster level like this - 2 targets/level and 1d6/level/target = (2*level^2)d6 which is not cool.
Except the augmented mythic version of the spell causes targets to fall at their normal speed.
I was thinking some more about this, and the real place this tactic is broken is at 5th level. You don't even need all the path abilities or metamagic feats, just the ability to cast the mythic version.
A 5th level caster targeting themselves and 9 rocks dropped from their hand does 45d6 damage(9 packets of 5d6 save for half), for an average of 157.5 damage in a 10 foot radius, for casting a level 1 spell at 5th level. That seems rather extreme for level 5, even with mythic factored in, and the easy counters aren't really available yet.
I'm going to go with a personal ruling that the spell can only deal damage once per casting, no matter how many overlapping areas there are. Rare is the effect that lets you "double dip" on caster level like this - 2 targets/level and 1d6/level/target = (2*level^2)d6 which is not cool.
That's why I don't plan on abusing it. I just find it funny that one of the most innocent spells in the game manages to surpass pure damage spells in destructive power and I made it just for exhibition purposes.
This also requires a lot of setup at level 5, since you have to be able to get above the enemy to a point where you can drop on them.
You can always cast Jump and land on their square, I guess.
Then you're using two spells and not one.
Two first level spells to get 10 times the damage of a Fireball at level 5 isn't such a bad deal, I think.
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A 5th level caster targeting themselves and 9 rocks dropped from their hand does 45d6 damage(9 packets of 5d6 save for half), for an average of 157.5 damage in a 10 foot radius, for casting a level 1 spell at 5th level. That seems rather extreme for level 5, even with mythic factored in, and the easy counters aren't really available yet.
The players will when love when the GM uses this tactic against them.
After all, what is good for the goose....
A 5th level caster targeting themselves and 9 rocks dropped from their hand does 45d6 damage(9 packets of 5d6 save for half), for an average of 157.5 damage in a 10 foot radius, for casting a level 1 spell at 5th level. That seems rather extreme for level 5, even with mythic factored in, and the easy counters aren't really available yet.The players will when love when the GM uses this tactic against them.
After all, what is good for the goose....
I find such GMs to be pretty sinister. Personally I would like to see someone use such a trick for a tough situation.
If someone wants to bring something like this against the players, he can always create a trap that lets little stones drop over their heads but keep it at a sane DC and limit the number of stones. Even 5 of these little things can almost wipe out an entire party at low levels.
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Then you're using two spells and not one.Two first level spells to get 10 times the damage of a Fireball at level 5 isn't such a bad deal, I think.
How are you getting 50d6 out of a Jump spell and Mythic Feather Fall?
I understand 2 targets per level so 10 targets. Which means you have to get 50ft on each target. I don't think you can make a jump check of 200 for that.
Why 50 ft? I think I lost you somewhere :/
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I find such GMs to be pretty sinister.
I have always made it clear that I am playing by the same rules the players are.
Fun and flavor filled, but less than optimal character will find a world filled with similar NPC's
Hyper-optimized munchkins exploiting loopholes in the rules to destroy everything they encounter will find a world full of like minded NPC's.
I then leave it to the players what kind of campaign they want. Some players prefer the later.
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@ ryric and TriOmegaZero I suggested Jump in order to manage to jump just over you opponent and drop the bombs. For medium sized creatures I think that you just have to jump 10 ft to go over their heads without provoking an AoO. Never mind, according to the description of the spell, it is implied that you can simply let the pebbles drop from where you stand and still manage to get the spell off, since it's an immediate action.
@Artanthos Certainly I would not abuse it myself. We already finish every encounter within 1 round in our campaign. I believe that if a player pulls such a trick just once, it is alright to let is pass like this. My idea for the current campaign since I am a Bard is to craft some guitar picks and let them rain over my opponents. It will be pretty cool I think. :D
Regardless of the targets, all the metamagics (intensify, empower, and maximize) would all apply to the base 5d6, not on top of each other. Not sure about the mythic increases.
I find such GMs to be pretty sinister.I have always made it clear that I am playing by the same rules the players are.
Fun and flavor filled, but less than optimal character will find a world filled with similar NPC's
Hyper-optimized munchkins exploiting loopholes in the rules to destroy everything they encounter will find a world full of like minded NPC's.
I then leave it to the players what kind of campaign they want. Some players prefer the later.
Very much this. As far as the OP, I'd just stare at the player and say "no" and move on with the game.
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Ah, I misread the spell.
I agree with knightnday, this is a theoretical problem rather than a real one. My response would be, "Cool. So, what are you actually going to do?"
If I had a player who really kicked up a fuss (unlikely, I don't play with people like that) then I'd just nerf Feather Fall to only target people.
Very much this. As far as the OP, I'd just stare at the player and say "no" and move on with the game.I find such GMs to be pretty sinister.I have always made it clear that I am playing by the same rules the players are.
Fun and flavor filled, but less than optimal character will find a world filled with similar NPC's
Hyper-optimized munchkins exploiting loopholes in the rules to destroy everything they encounter will find a world full of like minded NPC's.
I then leave it to the players what kind of campaign they want. Some players prefer the later.
As I said before, if the player promises to only use it once just for the sake of it, it's fine. Otherwise it may threaten the quality of every encounter.
In my case, we are playing a fast paced mythic campaign in order to try how mythic options work. To be honest, we all promised not to use these rules again, because it is very difficult to balance the encounters, especially when players become almost untouchable and kill anything within 1 round. I just promised my GM that before the final encounter, I would show him something in order to make him realize just how stupidly strong some combos are. He accepted and now I am just waiting to hit level 20/ tier 10.
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Pretty good combo, congratulations to Colfenor, I hope to use this one day :)
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I would never let this work as the OP describes. Among the reasons I might use is "Feather fall works only upon free-falling objects." I'd rule that rocks you're attacking with(1) are not free-falling objects. Not to mention that, since you're attacking with them, you need to roll (easy) attacks and use your (limited) supply of actions. Even free actions have the "GM can limit" language.
But there's some interesting inventiveness in the OP, so ... I might rule (complete GM rule-creation) that if you can get a good "scatter" of objects, you could blanket a larger area with 5d6 (or whatever you can Empower/etc.) blasts. No single 5' square could generate more than 1 blast, though.
So someone comes up with this idea when they're falling a short distance - "OK, make an attack roll to hit the square next to where you land with a stone. As long as you don't screw up, there'll be a blast there too." Longer distance, maybe more stones. Multiple people, maybe each gets a stone. I do want to reward creativity, but not with fun-and-credibility-straining (for me) thousands of points of damage.
(1) I'm a firm believer that the effect of a game-action is what determines which rules should apply, not some doomed-to-fail attempt at seeing the rules as realistically mirroring some gameworld "physics". The rules are abstractions - dropping rocks with an intent to damage is different than just dropping rocks as colorful description. One is an attack, and needs to follow attack rules. The other isn't, and doesn't - no matter that the "actual" (ha! - imaginarily actual) action is the same in both cases.
That's why you are not throwing the rocks, but simply let them go. You do not apply force, thus they are considered free falling objects. The broken part is that the spell doesn't include a height restriction. This means that you can literally drop the stones a few inches from the ground and cast the spell, since it's an immediate action, and still have the effect.
A possible easy solution to the problem would be to limit the damage of the blasts according to the size of the objects dropped. For example, fine objects deal 1 point of damage, diminutive objects deal 1d2, tiny 1d4, etc.
All in all, I believe that Paizo has been extremely careless with the design of Mythic Adventures, as it contains some pretty broken stuff in the wrong hands (Perfect Lie anyone?).
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I was thinking some more about this, and the real place this tactic is broken is at 5th level. You don't even need all the path abilities or metamagic feats, just the ability to cast the mythic version.
A 5th level caster targeting themselves and 9 rocks dropped from their hand does 45d6 damage(9 packets of 5d6 save for half), for an average of 157.5 damage in a 10 foot radius, for casting a level 1 spell at 5th level. That seems rather extreme for level 5, even with mythic factored in, and the easy counters aren't really available yet.
The augmented effect needs the caster to be 4th Mythic Tier. I see no way that such a caster would be level 5 only.
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My counter as a GM.
The objects do not land at the same time. The first one lands does 20d6 to all the other objects around. 120 damage will destroy even an andmantine pebble therefore the other objects do not land.
"The targets of this spell are unaffected by these concussive blasts"