Goblin Squad Member
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I suspect the number of major, land-holding, starter town running factions will stay at three, and this blog will turn out to have been the introduction of comparatively minor factions.
If there is a particularly attractive faction that gains traction (say several hundred members in the first year) I can see it becoming a major force, as it may be able to crush a rival faction with little negative consequence. Should be interesting to see how smaller or unfavored factions are incented to get new members.
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Goblin Squad Member
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PFO is a game being developed to have legs (long term play, as in years). Dumbing it down benefits no one, not least of all the game itself. Having to have a bit of memory or having to take notes about the ever evolving political landscape will be a great selling point for PFO.
Never a truer word.
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The total number if different factions should be kept low enough that the average players (weighted by time played) don't need to keep a written reference to be able to figure out who is hostile to whom, given their factions.
8-10 seems like a sweet spot for that.
I feel quite the opposite. If there are 24 - 30 factions in PF RPG, I se no reason for there not to be in PFO.
PFO is a game being developed to have legs (long term play, as in years). Dumbing it down benefits no one, not least of all the game itself. Having to have a bit of memory or having to take notes about the ever evolving political landscape will be a great selling point for PFO.
For those that remain unknowing of the political intrigues, well they will be much like the average person as you say, only being able to keep track of a handful of goings on.
I'm sure there will be more than a few who will role play the evil power brokers and try to manipulate the factional / political landscape, of course to their own advantage.
That's a very good point Bludd. I'm just too damn lazy to try to calculate number of factions available to join, number per alignment (including ranges) and pvp relations or allies between factions... Over to devs *my work here is done now*
I get the feeling Decius' suggestion is manageable complex to begin with 8-10 - also much higher than the usual 2-3 in other mmorpgs. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is also the consideration of factions based on roles(classes) that are not available in EE. For example, you are only eligible to join the Kusari-Gama faction if you have either a natural attack or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Neither of these may be available to characters in EE. Since we may not even have a monk skill/feat tree until after OE we may not see this faction for a long time.
I believe it would be a good idea to push for and resurrect the "Unarmed Combat" possibility that was discussed many months ago.
The argument against it at the time was the concern for the animation and the need for itemization (item slot usage to be on par with others).
The second is an easy fix: Hand Wrappings
These Hand Wrapping could be made of different materials, therefore different tier. They fulfil the need to take up item slots. Have the same need for gathering and crafting that any other weapon. They can have the same key word usage that any other weapon has.
The first issue, animation, is outside of my knowledge as to why it is difficult to animate weaponless combat?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is also the consideration of factions based on roles(classes) that are not available in EE. For example, you are only eligible to join the Kusari-Gama faction if you have either a natural attack or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Neither of these may be available to characters in EE. Since we may not even have a monk skill/feat tree until after OE we may not see this faction for a long time.I believe it would be a good idea to push for and resurrect the "Unarmed Combat" possibility that was discussed many months ago.
The argument against it at the time was the concern for the animation and the need for itemization (item slot usage to be on par with others).
The second is an easy fix: Hand Wrappings
These Hand Wrapping could be made of different materials, therefore different tier. They fulfil the need to take up item slots. Have the same need for gathering and crafting that any other weapon. They can have the same key word usage that any other weapon has.
The first issue, animation, is outside of my knowledge as to why it is difficult to animate weaponless combat?
Ryan responded on the challenges of Monks for specific eg and limits chosen for Early Enrollment here:
Conditions for Adding Roles: It's not just animations. There's an art component, and that's meaningful. But there's also a design component. It will take time to ensure that we're happy with the balance and flow of the "basic" class features. That's part of Crowdforging. We need some space between when various roles go into the game for testing and evaluation. We also need time to do development on the way features get implemented.
Monks, for example, aren't just "fighters who use their fists". They're characters with extremely complex features.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Conditions for Adding Roles: It's not just animations. There's an art component, and that's meaningful. But there's also a design component. It will take time to ensure that we're happy with the balance and flow of the "basic" class features. That's part of Crowdforging. We need some space between when various roles go into the game for testing and evaluation. We also need time to do development on the way features get implemented.
Monks, for example, aren't just "fighters who use their fists". They're characters with extremely complex features.
I can appreciate that, but the delay could be on those more complex features that wouldn't be available until perhaps level 15+. The basic features such as Unarmed Combat could be implemented much sooner, or at least I hope so.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is also the consideration of factions based on roles(classes) that are not available in EE. For example, you are only eligible to join the Kusari-Gama faction if you have either a natural attack or the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. Neither of these may be available to characters in EE. Since we may not even have a monk skill/feat tree until after OE we may not see this faction for a long time.
With respect, I doubt this consideration. My character will be unable to be a druid when I enter EE, yet I intend him to become one as soon as Druidism is enabled. My character's alignment will be true neutral, and his skills will likely be clerical in nature at that point. I expect he will be already in leathers and armed with a wooden melee weapon of some sort. There is no reason why the Green Faith could not already be available to me even so. There is also no reason why the Kusari-Gama would not accept those who aspire to be monks. Neophytes are not expected to be masters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Being, I agree that we as players will be building characters that come as close to our favored roles as we can during early enrollment. Joining the Green Faith will be very viable during EE as it does not require having a specific game mechanic to join. If, however, we do not have an unarmed strike in EE, joining Kusari-Gama will be more problematic. I will be building a character that will look and act as much like a monk as I can craft it, waiting until I can shift to the true monk role when it is released. I would love to see the devs give some thought to how EE characters can become neophytes in those factions where we have to wait on the game mechanics before the faction can be fully realized.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Pathfinder Society and the Aspis Consortium are the classic rival factions of the setting. They're like Jones and Belloq, only both are willing to sell out for a profit. They have their paws in everything across the Inner Sea region, and would certainly be interested in the Emerald Spire. While some long-standing rivalries like that may always be in opposition, others could shift. Maybe the Pathfinder Society is working with the Knights of Iomedae for a while so the Aspis Consortium allies with Thornkeep and the Hellknights. Later, things shift so the KoI and HK are still at each other's throats, but both are willing to work with the PS against TK and the AC. Goblinworks would be in charge of shifting these temporary factional alliances, and would do so about once a quarter in order to keep things relatively balanced in a rock-paper-scissors fashion. Players are in control of their settlement & company alliances & conflicts, but joining the factional PvP system would mean signing up to have shifting rivalries you can't fully control. If you're a Pathfinder you can count on fighting the Aspis, or if you're a Hellknight you can count on fighting the Iomedaens, but beyond that there's no telling whether you'll still be allied or fighting with another group for more than a few months, since the devs can use such a system to ensure that no one is likely to remain top dog or underdog for too long.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A concern has been brought up, and a question has arisen, concerning these NPC Factions.
I would expect that when these NPC Factions are introduced that they will obviously follow their descriptions and politics (allies and enemies)based on Pathfinder RPG TT.
The concern is that if the politics of the factions do not change over time, and reflect the political landscape created by players in PFO, then the faction system will be nothing more than NPC driven PVP.
Crowd Forging, if we are to have it, should include the possibility of what we have been given by Paizo's PFRPG and transforming it into something that is based on the realities that PFO has become.
Since it has been said that the likelihood of PFO, finding its way back into PFRPG is slim, there is no or very little risk of changes we evolve over time tainting the original PFRPG content.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bluddwolf, it seemed to me that Tork was addressing your concern in this post from Goblinworks Blog: The Man in the Back Said "Everyone Attack!".
It seems proper to me that the Faction system is basically the Theme Park PvP, while the Settlement Wars / Company Feuds system is where the landscape created by the Players becomes meaningful.
Since it has been said that the likelihood of PFO, finding its way back into PFRPG is slim, there is no or very little risk of changes we evolve over time tainting the original PFRPG content.
It would be very unsatisfying to me if PFO evolved so separately from PFRPG that basic things like Faction Alliances were not recognizable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can appreciate that, but the delay could be on those more complex features that wouldn't be available until perhaps level 15+. The basic features such as Unarmed Combat could be implemented much sooner, or at least I hope so.
Conditions for Adding Roles: It's not just animations. There's an art component, and that's meaningful. But there's also a design component. It will take time to ensure that we're happy with the balance and flow of the "basic" class features. That's part of Crowdforging. We need some space between when various roles go into the game for testing and evaluation. We also need time to do development on the way features get implemented.
Monks, for example, aren't just "fighters who use their fists". They're characters with extremely complex features.
I think the answer is probably very general. In fact I came across this article just now, which perhaps frames what Goblinworks are popping into EE and really drives how they grow the game:
Do you want your game to do everything or do one thing very well?
I think the "plan" Goblinworks has is really good. But not everything can be done at once. It's as simple as that, pets, mounts, monks, boats, spells, voxels and more... "than you can possibly imagine" (couldn't resist saying that!).
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Goblin Squad Member
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The concern is that if the politics of the factions do not change over time, and reflect the political landscape created by players in PFO, then the faction system will be nothing more than NPC driven PVP.
I agree with this. But I think they have and will use the option to "shuffle the pack" as necessary bar the extreme Factions. That's my anticipation for GW to open/close "valves"?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The concern is that if the politics of the factions do not change over time, and reflect the political landscape created by players in PFO, then the faction system will be nothing more than NPC driven PVP.I agree with this. But I think they have and will use the option to "shuffle the pack" as necessary bar the extreme Factions. That's my anticipation for GW to open/close "valves"?!
Shifting alliances among factions would provide GW with a great set of control valves to prevent one faction from dominating the game. All the players want to be Pathfinders this month? Fine, but the other factions have noticed their swelling numbers, and are prepared to gang up on the Pathfinders if need be.
With so many different potential PVP opportunities (wars, feuds, alignment, and a Web of possible faction conflicts), I think it's going to be important to have a toggle for Valid PVP Targets in the UI. I really don't want to have to start every interaction with another player by shouting all of our affiliations to one another from just outside of longbow range. Even in the lore, there are visible clues to many factions. Carrying a Wayfinder? Assume Pathfinder. Wearing black armor with spikes all over it? Probably a Hellknight. Wearing a Mask of Razmir? Likely not a cleric of Iomedae.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Factions is something that should NOT be crowdforged.
We already have 3 starting factions for the area the game takes place in. They will not likely add more till OE or maybe even later depending on how the game takes off.
Then of course back to the subject at hand.... If you make the factions a popularity contest, then the factions will be lopsided in power. We will have too many of a specific alignment or background or whatever, and not enough to oppose them.
So in the end, we will have massive numbers of players in a certain camp and the rest will be a joke for new players to join up with. The factions will be lopsided (may happen anyway as people usually follow the herd).
People are going to choose the factions they are interested in playing, and a crowdforger vote determines what they are interested in playing. You can have 2 good aligned factions and 500 evil ones, if people want to play a good role, they'll pack into those two factions.
Less factions would actually be a boon to less popular alignments. It means the players desiring to play that alignment will be less divided when it comes to factional warfare. Remember that just because two factions are of the same alignment doesn't mean they have the same enemies/allies or goals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Factions is something that should NOT be crowdforged.
We already have 3 starting factions for the area the game takes place in. They will not likely add more till OE or maybe even later depending on how the game takes off.
Then of course back to the subject at hand.... If you make the factions a popularity contest, then the factions will be lopsided in power. We will have too many of a specific alignment or background or whatever, and not enough to oppose them.
So in the end, we will have massive numbers of players in a certain camp and the rest will be a joke for new players to join up with. The factions will be lopsided (may happen anyway as people usually follow the herd).
People are going to choose the factions they are interested in playing, and a crowdforger vote determines what they are interested in playing. You can have 2 good aligned factions and 500 evil ones, if people want to play a good role, they'll pack into those two factions.
Less factions would actually be a boon to less popular alignments. It means the players desiring to play that alignment will be less divided when it comes to factional warfare. Remember that just because two factions are of the same alignment doesn't mean they have the same enemies/allies or goals.
Um... Right... I think I said that.