Disentegrate vs Breath of Life


Rules Questions

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Petrified

Quote:
A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character's petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

Breath of Life does not remove the petrified condition. Therefore it has no effect on someone targeted by Flesh to Stone, a basilisk, medusa, etc. It has nothing to do with HP, it has to do with having a condition, and this spell not addressing that condition.

If being dead causes you to become an "object" for all intents and purposes, then regardless of the source of the damage, Breath of Life can never recover anyone from death and the text of the spell, other than it's use as a healing spell or damage against undead, is pointless.


Irontruth wrote:

Petrified

Quote:
A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious. If a petrified character cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as he returns to flesh, he is unharmed. If the character's petrified body is incomplete when it returns to flesh, the body is likewise incomplete and there is some amount of permanent hit point loss and/or debilitation.

Breath of Life does not remove the petrified condition. Therefore it has no effect on someone targeted by Flesh to Stone, a basilisk, medusa, etc. It has nothing to do with HP, it has to do with having a condition, and this spell not addressing that condition.

If being dead causes you to become an "object" for all intents and purposes, then regardless of the source of the damage, Breath of Life can never recover anyone from death and the text of the spell, other than it's use as a healing spell or damage against undead, is pointless.

YES, thank god someone else is seeing the reasoning I was putting forth.

Therefore if being dead causes you to become an object for all intents and purposes, you are not a viable target for any iteration of Raise Dead.

Liberty's Edge

Winterwalker wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Scavion wrote:


Aside from a blanket, It's magic, there is no stipulation of Breath of Life stating it can't do these things.

But MUCH more importantly there's no stipulation saying it CAN do those things.

Spells, Feats, Class abilities, and everything else do what they SAY they do, not everything they DON'T say they CAN'T do.

Magic Missile doesn't say it can't make a Bull Rush at +100000 and shove people off of cliffs either but I'm sure if I showed up at your table with a Magic Missile Bull Rush build based on that fact you wouldn't allow it.

That, and simple logic (Why can a 5th level spell with no material cost replicate a 7th level spell effect that costs 10k gp?) shows why this doesn't work.

Ya but isn't there a general rule already posted above saying is CAN?

<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

so by that logic, before the time of death, he wasn't dust.

Actually, with disintegrate you are dust at the time of death.

Per se disintegrate don't kill you, but when you reach 0 or fewer hit as an effect of being hit by disintegrate, you turn into a pile of dust. As (usually) a player character can't survive being turned to a pile of dust, you die.

Shadow Lodge

I think the intent of Breath of Life is a cheaper version of Raise Dead, which only works if used immediately after the dead character drops.

Using that knowledge...

Raise Dead wrote:
While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life.

I think most people would be hard pressed to say that the body is whole. To say "but all the dust is there!" feels very much like grasping at straws.

This is of course RAI; the wording isn't definitive.


Winterwalker wrote:


Ya but isn't there a general rule already posted above saying is CAN?

<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

so by that logic, before the time of death, he wasn't dust.

Mind continuing that quote for just 6 more words?

"(depending on the spell or device)"

And Breath of Life has no such stipulation.

Even if it did, at the time of death you became dust.

So it just restores you to dust. And dust isn't alive.


Becoming dust IS the time of death, therefore the magic returns you to before that point.

And I would say that snip is the general rule with which we can use breath of life to recover with.


If dying immediately makes you an object and not a creature, then none of the raise dead spells work. They all have a target of "dead creature touched", and there's no such thing as a dead creature.


Rynjin wrote:
Winterwalker wrote:


Ya but isn't there a general rule already posted above saying is CAN?

<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

so by that logic, before the time of death, he wasn't dust.

Mind continuing that quote for just 6 more words?

"(depending on the spell or device)"

And Breath of Life has no such stipulation.

Even if it did, at the time of death you became dust.

So it just restores you to dust. And dust isn't alive.

Breath of Life brings you back to life. There is no condition called "dust". Breath of Life doesn't have a stipulation of what condition the remains must be in, unlike Raise Dead. There is nothing in the rules of Disintegrate that actively prevent the usage of Breath of Life.

If it had text like Raise Dead:

"the body of the creature to be raised must be whole"

I would agree with you. But it doesn't. Therefore, the fact that the remains are dust is irrelevant. The dust is still your remains, just as your ashes are your remains after being cremated.


I apologize for bringing up the "object" comparison; I was trying to find some RAW technicality because it seemed like the other poster was being deliberately obtuse, saying that I had to prove that a dead creature wan't alive.

Not everything needs a textbook rule definition. If there's a spell that makes you sick to your stomach, the developers should not have to explain why you can't cast a spell with a verbal component while vomiting.


Irontruth wrote:

Breath of Life brings you back to life. There is no condition called "dust". Breath of Life doesn't have a stipulation of what condition the remains must be in, unlike Raise Dead. There is nothing in the rules of Disintegrate that actively prevent the usage of Breath of Life.

If it had text like Raise Dead:

"the body of the creature to be raised must be whole"

I would agree with you. But it doesn't. Therefore, the fact that the remains are dust is irrelevant. The dust is still your remains, just as your ashes are your remains after being cremated.

So basically the only checks Breath of Life makes is,

Was the target slain within the last round?
Was it from a death effect? If not proceed to the next step.
Apply healing.
If the healing was enough to raise the target's hitpoints are at a -amount less than it's con score then it comes back to life and stabilizes at it's new hitpoint total.

Shadow Lodge

It's true that since Breath of Life doesn't mention the limiting wording that Raise Dead has, maybe the intent of it is that it could also be a cheaper version of Resurrection as well.


Bizbag wrote:

I apologize for bringing up the "object" comparison; I was trying to find some RAW technicality because it seemed like the other poster was being deliberately obtuse, saying that I had to prove that a dead creature wan't alive.

Not everything needs a textbook rule definition. If there's a spell that makes you sick to your stomach, the developers should not have to explain why you can't cast a spell with a verbal component while vomiting.

Honestly, I might agree with you if I were making such a ruling in my home game.

But this isn't the "homebrew" section of the forum. It's the rules questions, and first and foremost, discussions should be rooted in the RAW. We can add commentary about how we might adjust it for our own games, but that means separating out that commentary from the concrete discussion of what the rules do and don't say.


Avatar-1 wrote:
It's true that since Breath of Life doesn't mention the limiting wording that Raise Dead has, maybe the intent of it is that it could also be a cheaper version of Resurrection as well.

I looked at BoL again for clarity. As written, if the character died within 1 round, they heal the HP damage.

I couldn't find the PRG equivalent, but 3.5 rules said that, in case it mattered, a character who died to not-hp-damage was at -10. I assume this has been adjusted to PRG to use your negative Con.

This is where we have to depart from RAW and use common sense, though, because Disintegrate doesn't say the target is dead. If you hit 0 hp, you're disintegrated., but it doesn't say you die. So RAW, BoL doesn't need to bring you back to life, so even if it did restore a dead body, it wouldn't because you 're not dead, Also, the rules don't say a brain is required for mental thoughts, so you could take mental-only actions, because you're not dead.

But this is just nonsense. Nobody with an ounce of sense is arguing a disintegrated character is alive and can act. Use that same level of sense. The ashes were once your body, so they count as a "dead body" if appropriate and they don't if not. It's your dead body for the purposes of Resurrection, but it's not literally a body, it's a pile of ashes. So many rules issues could be resolved if we stopped deliberately ignoring any lick of sense in favor of particular an ultra-specific wording.

Wording can be important though, and I love analyzing rules minutiae. But there are two level 5 spells that can restore the dead. One can be used in an emergency and be used quickly, and carries a lower penalty to the dead character, and heals them, and can be used to heal non-dead characters, or can hurt an undead. The other is Raise Dead, which takes much longer I cast, and ONLY does that function . If RD can't restore the body, a more versatile spell of the same level probably doesn't.


Irontruth wrote:


Honestly, I might agree with you if I were making such a ruling in my home game.

But this isn't the "homebrew" section of the forum. It's the rules questions, and first and foremost, discussions should be rooted in the RAW. We can add commentary about how we might adjust it for our own games, but that means separating out that commentary from the concrete discussion of what the rules do and don't say.

And the thing is, the RAW mentions nothing about BoL restoring disintegrated creatures back to wholeness just like it makes no mention of restoring severed body parts.

Which means common sense MUST be used in this scenario instead of falling back on the "Well it doesn't say I CAN'T!" school of logic that is almost always bunked somewhere down the line.

This is, as my first post was pointing out, the magical equivalent of giving someone CPR for a gunshot wound to the head.

It doesn't make sense, and nothing in the RAW contradicts that sense either.


Comparing the descriptions of the spells Raise Dead, Resurrection, and Breath of Life.

Raise Dead targets a "dead creature." It requires a complete body.

Resurrection says "as Raise Dead" so the target is still "dead creature." It says the small amount of dust left from Disintegrate is sufficient, so the dust left by Disintegrate is still a "dead creature."

Breath of Life targets a "creature," but can target someone who has died within the round. Since the dust left from Disintegrate is still a "dead creature" per Resurrection, it seems like it should be a valid target for Breath of Life.

So it may be possible to use Breath of Life on a Disintegrated person.


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Enters, reads the tortured logic required to infer that dust can breath and be alive, bangs head on wall, leaves muttering about common sense and the obvious lack thereof. With a few choice muttered words about lower level spells doing more than higher level spells.


Rynjin wrote:
Irontruth wrote:


Honestly, I might agree with you if I were making such a ruling in my home game.

But this isn't the "homebrew" section of the forum. It's the rules questions, and first and foremost, discussions should be rooted in the RAW. We can add commentary about how we might adjust it for our own games, but that means separating out that commentary from the concrete discussion of what the rules do and don't say.

And the thing is, the RAW mentions nothing about BoL restoring disintegrated creatures back to wholeness just like it makes no mention of restoring severed body parts.

Which means common sense MUST be used in this scenario instead of falling back on the "Well it doesn't say I CAN'T!" school of logic that is almost always bunked somewhere down the line.

This is, as my first post was pointing out, the magical equivalent of giving someone CPR for a gunshot wound to the head.

It doesn't make sense, and nothing in the RAW contradicts that sense either.

I hate the phrase "common sense" it's too easy to abuse. For example, I can use it in the exact inverse to what you are doing.

Raise Dead specifically calls out body conditions that make it void. The petrified condition specifically calls out body conditions (limbs broken off while in stone form) that affect the character.

Since Raise Dead calls out specific conditions, but BoL does not, we can therefore assume that BoL is not subject to the same conditions that Raise Dead is subject to, because either BoL would repeat them, or it would say "see Raise Dead for similar restrictions". We see that all the time with other spells. For example, the Cure spells say "this spell functions like cure light wounds except...."

Unless Raise Dead is specifically referred to in the spell, it doesn't impact the spell.

It's not that BoL doesn't say it can't and that's it. It's that another spell specifically says it can't, while BoL does not have that restriction in place. Therefore, BoL is not subject to that restriction, per RAW.

The restriction is clearly known about by the authors and implemented in other spells. Since this known restriction isn't implemented here in the text, it doesn't apply.

Remember, as a GM, I would probably agree with your interpretation for a home game. But RAW, when two spells do the same thing and one has a restriction written into it and the other doesn't, it seems pretty clear to me that the other spell is NOT subject to the same restriction. Otherwise it would reference that restriction or include it in it's own text.


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Resurrection does not state it is a 'dead creature'. It states that the dust counts as a small portion of its body. That means something very different.

It means that dust normally does NOT count.

Since no exception is provided in Raise Dead or in Breath of Life, it still does not count.

- Gauss


Raise Dead's spell description clearly says the body must be whole.

Can you bold the text in the Breath of Life spell that says the same thing?

Edit: So, if I took the spell write up of Raise Dead and Disintegrate, I could bold the part of Disintegrate that voids Raise Dead and bold where in Raise Dead it becomes voided.

It would be very simple and obvious. That to me would qualify as "common sense".


Gauss wrote:

Resurrection does not state it is a 'dead creature'. It states that the dust counts as a small portion of its body. That means something very different.

It means that dust normally does NOT count.

Since no exception is provided in Raise Dead or in Breath of Life, it still does not count.

- Gauss

You can read read the sentence "The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body," as an exception or and inclusion.

You are reading it as an exception. That this dust is not normally considered a portion of a body.

I read it as an inclusion, that the dust is part of the set of things considered a portion of a body.

I don't believe either reading is more valid than the other.

Raise Dead doesn't need the line, since it already requires a complete body. True Resurrection doesn't need the line since it reference Resurrection.

Breath of Life may or may not need the line depending on your interpretation that line in Resurrection is an exception or an inclusion.

Liberty's Edge

I'm hitting FAQ on this, I'm not convinced that it would fail in this case. I simply don't see the wording of Breath saying it wouldn't work if it's own specific criteria is met.


Also FAQ'd since it is clear that it is less than clear. :)

- Gauss


Breath of Life isn't a "raising" type spell of the likes of Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, etc. It's a healing spell along the lines of the Cure <level> types of spells, with a special exception that if cast on a corpse killed within the last round, and the healing brings them back into "living" HP range, it will bring them back to life. Healing spells don't normally repair bodily damage. They won't restore severed limbs or destroyed organs; you need the Regeneration spell for that. Since BoL is a healing spell rather than a raising spell, it suffers the same restriction; it won't restore your bodily condition any more than Cure Light Wounds will re-attach your severed arm. If your heart is destroyed, all the Breath of Life in the world won't resuscitate you because it can't restore the function of the organ. Likewise if your head were removed; BoL will try to heal you, but then run into the critical problem of your head not having a body (or your body not having a head, depending on perspective). By this same token, BoL will run into the same problem trying to restore a dusted sorcerer; it will try to heal the damage, but lacking the capacity of a Regeneration spell, your life-infused pile of dust won't be able to pick up the slack and you promptly die again, just as if you had tried to BoL a character who had their heart removed. Unfortunately, since you can only cast Regeneration on a living target, you can't regenerate the pile of dust. Thus, your only recourse is to pack the dust into some sort of container, take it to the local religious center, offer a generous donation (or, possibly, do a quest for them), and petition for one of the nice clerics there to perform the Resurrection rites. That's the long and short of it.


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Well, Resurrection itself is a [Healing] spell. You are raising a dichotomy between "healing" and "raising" spells that does not exist in the rules.

Breath of Life says it can raise the dead, so where are you getting the idea that it is not one of your "raising" spells?

As for Breath of Life not stating it will regenerate body parts, or what have you, neither does Resurrection.

Resurrection just says it will work on a portion of a body, but doesn't state it regenerates what is missing. It is just assumed to do so (and I believe it does) because it is missing the clause in Raise Dead regarding missing body parts remain missing.

Breath of Life doesn't say it regenerates missing pieces, but neither does it have anything like Raise Dead's clause regarding missing pieces.

To use a different example than Disintegrate, you would presume that death from lava immersion, acid damage, or fire damage (especially effects that cause you to Catch on Fire) would degrade the condition of the corpse. And I could see a DM ruling that to be so. But since in all these cases, Breath of Life should bring you back by healing you above -Con hp, what happens to the missing pieces?

The Exchange

Berinor and Gauss,

As far as my hit points and the con damage and negative levels here is how that went down:

Going into the room I was at 83/113 hit points (I had taken some damage and did not get a chance to heal before going into the next room). As we went into the room the bad guy had cast cloudkill. I made the fort save and only took 1 point of con damage bring me to 71/101 hit points (I am using HeroLab, so I applied the ability adjustment). A round or two later I was hit with another spell (I don't remember what it was) and took 1 negative level which brought me down to 66/96 hit points. Then the next round I got hit with disentegrate, and the GM rolled 76 points of damage, which took me down to -10/96 hit points and caused the disentegration to occur.

The subject of our discussion at the table was pretty much what it is here. In interest of game time, and because the spell descriptons did not specifically say it would not work, we went with that ruling. I read over all of the reponses so far, I see that we were not the only ones to have a problem with how it might work.


I FAQ'd it too just because whenever something like this comes up it's probably the best course of action.

@Gman: What they were trying to tell you is that 1 point of Con damage does nothing to you at all. You take no penalties from ability damage until you take 2 points of it, even if you're at an uneven number (you get Con damage from 14 to 13, you still have a +2 bonus). So you should have kept those 12 HP. Which means you would have been at +2 when you got hit with the Disintegrate.


Gauss wrote:

Resurrection does not state it is a 'dead creature'. It states that the dust counts as a small portion of its body. That means something very different.

It means that dust normally does NOT count.

Since no exception is provided in Raise Dead or in Breath of Life, it still does not count.

- Gauss

Gauss! Have you read nothing of my arguments?

If the dust is no longer a dead creature, you can't ever resurrect it. In order to resurrect a creature, you must target a *Dead Creature*. If the dust is not considered a dead creature then you can't resurrect it by any means.


gman8176, 1 point of Con damage does not drop your hps AT ALL.

You should have been a 2 hp and thus survived the Disintegrate attack.

- Gauss


Scavion! Did you read nothing of the post you quoted?

Resurrection has a specific clause stating that "The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body."

Implying quite clearly that the remains of a creature hit by disintegrate do not normally count as a dead creature. Resurrection makes it so.

Breath of Life has no such clause.


Scavion, of course I read your arguments. Have you read mine?

So you target a "Dead Creature" and for the purposes of Resurrection the dust qualifies. Why? Because in the spell description it states that it does.

Is there an equivalent statement in either Raise Dead or in Breath of Life? No, so they are not able to do so.

The Target line is not the only defining factor here. You must also read the spell.

For example: If you read just the Target line of a "Cure" spell, it says "Creature". A Construct is a creature right? However, in the spell description it then states "living creature" which a construct is not.

- Gauss

Edit: Ninja Rynjin :P


But it doesn't say anything like "for the purposes of Resurrection," it just says that dust from a Disintegrate spell counts as a portion of the body.

That phrase is not so clear that my interpretation (the dust is part of the set of parts of dead body) or your interpretation (it is only a part of a dead body in this circumstance) can be excluded.


Samasboy1, my bold was not a quote, it was an emphasis (rather than yelling by using capslock). However, I agree with you that it is not completely clear, which is why I FAQ'd it and stated it was not completely clear.

Scavion responded as if his interpretation is the only one and that I was just flat out ignoring common sense and him. Rather than arguing which interpretation it could have he ignored it's existence altogether in his last post.

- Gauss


Now hold on, in my arguments I stated that exactly...just not exactly with those words.

No doubt theres room for interpretation. However I think the RAW supports my train of thought.

Please clear this up for me.

Do you consider the dust to be targetable by effects that target *Dead Creatures*?

Because Resurrection has absolutely no extra wording on whether it can extend beyond it's targeting parameters.


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Scavion, I have quoted the "extra wording" a number of times. Even people *not* on my side of the debate have debated the "extra wording".

One more time.

Resurrection wrote:
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

This allows it to target the dust.

Now, the opposite side of the argument that the others are presenting is that this is not changing the parameters at all but is just clarifying that yes, the dust is a "body part".

So we have two sides:

Side A) Dust is not a creature (not even a dead creature). However, Resurrection has wording (see above quote) that allows it to target dust as if it were a body part of a dead creature.

Side B) Dust is a dead creature and the wording in the Resurrection spell is a confirmation that dust is a component of the body.

Now, do you see that I do indeed understand and have read everything? :)

I am on Side A, you and others are on Side B.

However, for the purposes of Breath of Life the whole 'dead creature or not' debate is irrelevant as far as I am concerned. What is more relevant is that Breath of Life, at it's core, is Cure Deadly Wounds with the added benefit of bringing you back to life if it heals you enough.

So, what are your hitpoints after a Disintegrate spell? 0? -10? -1000? -1000000? There is no answer there so Breath of Life has no effect.

What are your hitpoints after being subject to and dying from Flesh to Stone? What about after Phantasmal Killer?

Ultimately, I think the Devs will come down on the side of: even if it isn't a Death effect it is not death by hitpoint damage so you cannot fix it via Breath of Life.

I see no point to debate this with you further as the sides have been clearly stated and defined and neither side is going to budge.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Scavion, I have quoted the "extra wording" a number of times. Even people *not* on my side of the debate have debated the "extra wording".

One more time.

Resurrection wrote:
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

This allows it to target the dust.

- Gauss

Why? Why does that statement allow a spell that can only target *Dead Creatures* which your side has repeatedly said that it is no longer, target something it can't?


Scavion wrote:

Do you consider the dust to be targetable by effects that target *Dead Creatures*?

Because Resurrection has absolutely no extra wording on whether it can extend beyond it's targeting parameters.

I do, yes. The way I see it, it's a Dead Creature (in the sense of targeting the Raise Dead / Resurrection spells), but it's not a whole corpse for the purpose of Raise Dead, which reads "the body of the creature to be raised must be whole."

Because Resurrection uses the "functions like X spell, except" language, it works as the Raise Dead entry does, except if noted. Raise Dead can target Dead Creatures, so Resurrection can too.

Keep in mind that plenty of spells can *target* things that they can't *affect*. I can target an elf with Sleep, but it won't affect him. I can target the dust with Raise Dead, but it won't affect him.

As to Breath of Life, spells don't do things unless they say they do; Shocking Grasp doesn't say it can restart a person's heart ("clear!"), so by the rules, it can't. (As an ad hoc ruling, I think that'd be very creative and allow it, but it's not the rules). Breath of Life doesn't say it repairs bodies, so it probably doesn't. Note that Cure Light Wounds doesn't say whether it repairs body damage or not, but I doubt anyone'd argue "It doesn't say CLW *doesn't* repair body damage".

BoL could target a disintegrated pile of ash, and theoretically restore its hit points, but Raising the Dead restores the soul to the body, and the body has been destroyed. The pile's a Dead Creature for spell purposes, but it's not a body.


Gauss wrote:
So, what are your hitpoints after a Disintegrate spell? 0? -10? -1000? -1000000? There is no answer there so Breath of Life has no effect.

Well, actually, there is an answer. Under Death Effects in PRD 562: "In case it matters, a dead character, no matter how he died, has hit points equal to or less than his negative Constitution score."

So -Con, or the result of the Disintegrate's damage, whichever is lower (more negative).


Scavion wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Scavion, I have quoted the "extra wording" a number of times. Even people *not* on my side of the debate have debated the "extra wording".

One more time.

Resurrection wrote:
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

This allows it to target the dust.

- Gauss

Why? Why does that statement allow a spell that can only target *Dead Creatures* which your side has repeatedly said that it is no longer, target something it can't?

Are you..what...I can't...

That statement allows the spell to target something it couldn't normally because that's what it SAYS. This is how rules work.

Target: Dead creature.

Is the pile of dust a dead creature? No.

Can Raise Dead target the pile of dust? No.

Can Resurrection target the pile of dust? Yes.

Because it specifically says, right there in the bit that's quoted, that FOR THE PURPOSES OF RESURRECTION, the pile of dust COUNTS as a dead creature (even though it doesn't).


What about the case where you die and the color text from the GM is 'the bad guy cuts you in half' or 'the scything blade trap cuts you in half'? Would BoL work? What about if the color text is 'they cut off your arm and the shock kills you'? What if the color text is 'the guy with the mace bashes your brains in'? [examples of non-intact bodies due to damage] What if they'd been decapitated from a vorpal weapon, but had plenty of HP? If it doesn't fix deadly combat damage of whatever sort to your body, how can it bring you back to life? Disintegration just seems like the most extreme version of a death blow due to damage. Now, I would not allow 'undisintegration' unless the BoL brought you above the disintegration threshold (0 hp) - i.e. it failed to reverse it and you brought a soul back into what is still a pile of dust.


<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

I really wish Winterwalker cited where he found this because I feel it to be quite relevant.

If you consider the dust to be valid target for spells that target Dead Creatures, Breath of Life should work fine considering the snip above.

Also keep in mind that you can't target creatures you can't target, I'm surprised this needs saying.

There is no comparison between targetting things that you can't affect and targetting things you can't target.

One the spell is completed and nothing is achieved.
Two the spell can't be cast.

I can't target an invisible creature with magic missile therefore I cannot cast the spell.


Thanks BizBag, I missed that.

Still, I think the Devs will state that a creature disintegrated is not eligible for Breath of Life.

- Gauss

Edit: on closer inspection, that only applies to Death effects. Disintegrate is not a Death Effect. But, it could probably be cross applied to non-death effects that kill instantaneously.

LOL, we are getting into a lot of corner cases here. :D


Rynjin wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Gauss wrote:

Scavion, I have quoted the "extra wording" a number of times. Even people *not* on my side of the debate have debated the "extra wording".

One more time.

Resurrection wrote:
(The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

This allows it to target the dust.

- Gauss

Why? Why does that statement allow a spell that can only target *Dead Creatures* which your side has repeatedly said that it is no longer, target something it can't?

Are you..what...I can't...

That statement allows the spell to target something it couldn't normally because that's what it SAYS. This is how rules work.

Target: Dead creature.

Is the pile of dust a dead creature? No.

Can Raise Dead target the pile of dust? No.

Can Resurrection target the pile of dust? Yes.

Because it specifically says, right there in the bit that's quoted, that FOR THE PURPOSES OF RESURRECTION, the pile of dust COUNTS as a dead creature (even though it doesn't).

Except spells that include an exception state in the Effect section (See Text). Resurrection has no extra wording in it's target specifications.


Scavion wrote:

<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

I really wish Winterwalker cited where he found this because I feel it to be quite relevant.

It's under the Dead condition. And as I put earlier, it's out of context.

"The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."

They can restore the body to full health OR to its condition at time of death DEPENDING on the spell.

I.e. some spells do one. Some spells do the other. Some spells do both.

Not a general rule that states magic that restores dead characters to life always restores the body to its condition at the time of death.

Scavion wrote:
If you consider the dust to be valid target for spells that target Dead Creatures, Breath of Life should work fine considering the snip above.

And I DON'T consider the dust a valid target for spells that target dead creatures, because there is a spell that has a very specific caveat allowing it and ONLY it to target the dust.

Scavion wrote:


Except spells that include an exception state in the Effect section (See Text). Resurrection has no extra wording in it's target specifications.

No. They don't.

The "See Text" thing is generally for things that vary by circumstance.

This does not vary by circumstance. Ressurrection has a target of a dead creature. For the purposes of Resurrection, and only Resurrection, the dust COUNTS AS (NOT "is") a dead creature.

This is really very simple.


Scavion wrote:

<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

I really wish Winterwalker cited where he found this because I feel it to be quite relevant.

If you consider the dust to be valid target for spells that target Dead Creatures, Breath of Life should work fine considering the snip above.

I'd forgotten that part of the quote, so I'll take a moment to look at it.

Hmm.. having read this, I still think BoL doesn't work, because the magic requires a body. You have a Dead Creature, but you don't have a body. Resurrection makes its own exception to the requirement of a body.

Note, I will agree with one thing. Disintegrated Dust is a valid target for all three spells. It is a Dead Creature. However, BoL and RD will fail when cast on the dust.


Rynjin wrote:
Scavion wrote:

<snip>"but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death"</snip>

I really wish Winterwalker cited where he found this because I feel it to be quite relevant.

It's under the Dead condition. And as I put earlier, it's out of context.

"The character's hit points are reduced to a negative amount equal to his Constitution score, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character's soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies."

They can restore the body to full health OR to its condition at time of death DEPENDING on the spell.

I.e. some spells do one. Some spells do the other. Some spells do both.

Not a general rule that states magic that restores dead characters to life always restores the body to its condition at the time of death.

Scavion wrote:
If you consider the dust to be valid target for spells that target Dead Creatures, Breath of Life should work fine considering the snip above.

And I DON'T consider the dust a valid target for spells that target dead creatures, because there is a spell that has a very specific caveat allowing it and ONLY it to target the dust.

Scavion wrote:


Except spells that include an exception state in the Effect section (See Text). Resurrection has no extra wording in it's target specifications.

No. They don't.

The "See Text" thing is generally for things that vary by circumstance.

This does not vary by circumstance. Ressurrection has...

I fail to see where Resurrection states that the dust counts as the remains of a body for resurrection alone. The text seems to state that the dust is the remains of a body. Which just seems to me to mean that the dust is considered to remain a dead creature, albeit in a slightly different form.

Dust is not a condition. Dead is dead. You can tear up a body, drown it in water, and mash it into a fine dust, but it is still the remains of the body.


Bizbag wrote:
Breath of Life doesn't say it repairs bodies, so it probably doesn't.

I feel I have reached a comfortable impasse with the people on the opposite side of the discussion.

But to be fair, Resurrection does state it regenerates body parts either, it is just heavily implied.

Breath of Life doesn't have Resurrections statement about working on just a portion of the body; but neither does it have Raise Dead's statement about needing a complete body.

So, while I see it as working just fine, I can see why others feel it wouldn't.

So it comes down to what you feel a proper target for Breath of Life is. Is Target: Creature (can be dead) fulfilled by Disintegrate dust? I feel it is based on my inclusive reading of Resurrection. Others feel it isn't for multiple reasons. It's okay, I think we have beaten this horse to death (and hope nobody casts Breath of Life on it).


*Casts Breath of Life on it before the disintegrate comes and makes it table variance*

We'll beat the horse to death several times before we're through!


Scavion wrote:
I fail to see where Resurrection states that the dust counts as the remains of a body for resurrection alone.

Text of Resurrection:

Quote:

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

Note that none of this text is replicated for any of the other raise dead type spells except True Ressurrection (in an altered form).

If you think that means that it applies to all such spells that don't have a specific "No, you can't do that" caveat regardless of the fact that it is unique to this one single spell, I think that says all that needs to be said about any argument you make from here on out, and we can stop discussing.


No I don't. However the parentheses are the important bit.

This entire debate hinges on whether that parentheses is either a statement on whether the dust is always considered a portion of the body or only where resurrection concerns.

It lacks a *For this effect* clause and its put into parentheses which are often used as asides to fit in extra information often used to clarify things.


Scavion wrote:

No I don't. However the parentheses are the important bit.

This entire debate hinges on whether that parentheses is either a statement on whether the dust is always considered a portion of the body or only where resurrection concerns.

It lacks a *For this effect* clause and its put into parentheses which are often used as asides to fit in extra information often used to clarify things.

Just my opinion, but if the statement was under disintegrate, i'd say it applied to all. It being under Resurrection calls it out as the spell specific exception terminology from how i read it and how the rules work in other cases. Exception based design.

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