How do you handle emanations that are smaller than you are?

[Ravingdork]

I've seen this occur over and over again within the area effect rules. How is one expected to handle emanations (and similar area effects keyed to/centered on you) that are smaller than you and/or your space?

Take a ancient wyrm red dragon for example. He casts antimagic field. Is he the only one effected? He's bigger than the whole field! Perhaps only his stomach is effected?

[Valdast]

Dotting for interest

[Samasboy1]

You have to pick a corner for the emanation to spread from. You just pick any corner of any square that is part of your space.

Using your example of a great wyrm red dragon, his space is 30'. So imagine his space set out in a block like ex.1

He could pick any corner that of any space. If he picked the upper left hand corner of A, then the field would extend 10' out, such as ex.2

ABCDEF
GHIJKL
MNOPQR
STUVWX
YZ1234
567890

XX
XXXX
XXABCDEF
_XGHIJKL

The red dragons spaces A, B, and G would also be inside the emanation.

[Brf]

Yup. That is what JJ says inthis thread.

[mplindustries]

How do the actual rules handle it? I could not care less.

How do I handle it and how will I continue to handle it as long as I play this game?

A 10' emanation extends 10' from you, no matter how big you are. If you are within 10' of the Ancient Dragon, it's affecting you. Period.

Anything else gets silly fast.

For example, there's no facing, so can't the dragon just slide the emanation around to any origin point at will? Wouldn't that just mean it was effectively 10' from the Dragon at all times anyway?

[Skylancer4]

mplindustries wrote:

How do the actual rules handle it? I could not care less.

How do I handle it and how will I continue to handle it as long as I play this game?

A 10' emanation extends 10' from you, no matter how big you are. If you are within 10' of the Ancient Dragon, it's affecting you. Period.

Anything else gets silly fast.

For example, there's no facing, so can't the dragon just slide the emanation around to any origin point at will? Wouldn't that just mean it was effectively 10' from the Dragon at all times anyway?

Almost, it would be like the free action to put a hand on a weapon after using the hand for something. Shift it over to one spot, do something, shift it over to another spot, move, place it in another spot and end your turn. It then remains there as you are unable to take move actions outside your turn normally. It is almost like a tower shield providing cover at that point, you place it where you think it will provide the best protection until your turn comes around again.

[mplindustries]

Skylancer4 wrote:

lmost, it would be like the free action to put a hand on a weapon after using the hand for something. Shift it over to one spot, do something, shift it over to another spot, move, place it in another spot and end your turn. It then remains there as you are unable to take move actions outside your turn normally. It is almost like a tower shield providing cover at that point, you place it where you think it will provide the best protection until your turn comes around again.

So, you are not moving within your space when it's not your turn? Really? There's no facing. Picking one tiny part of a colossal dragon does not work with the basic no-facing conceit.

[Skylancer4]

mplindustries wrote:

Skylancer4 wrote:

lmost, it would be like the free action to put a hand on a weapon after using the hand for something. Shift it over to one spot, do something, shift it over to another spot, move, place it in another spot and end your turn. It then remains there as you are unable to take move actions outside your turn normally. It is almost like a tower shield providing cover at that point, you place it where you think it will provide the best protection until your turn comes around again.

So, you are not moving within your space when it's not your turn? Really? There's no facing. Picking one tiny part of a colossal dragon does not work with the basic no-facing conceit.

Welcome to simplifying the complicated world of combat to make it usable in a game.

So yeah, really. The game is setup so things occur at certain times to be managed more easily in the strict rules set. Immediate actions and speaking are two ways of doing something when it isn't your turn, both are part of a very short list. Otherwise if it isn't your action, you aren't doing much of note. Your combat statistics are the sum of all this movement you seem so hung up on.

If it is that much of an issue, there are always other systems which might be less aggravating for you to use, but this was a compromise the game designers made during the construction of the rule set. It happens.

[MyTThor]

mplindustries wrote:

How do the actual rules handle it? I could not care less.

How do I handle it and how will I continue to handle it as long as I play this game?

A 10' emanation extends 10' from you, no matter how big you are. If you are within 10' of the Ancient Dragon, it's affecting you. Period.

Anything else gets silly fast.

For example, there's no facing, so can't the dragon just slide the emanation around to any origin point at will? Wouldn't that just mean it was effectively 10' from the Dragon at all times anyway?

This interpretation has its own silliness inherent. If you rule this way then a colossal creature can affect exponentially more targets with an emanation spell than a medium creature. Why should size dictate that one has a much more powerful spell than others with smaller size but the same magical ability?

[mplindustries]

MyTThor wrote:

This interpretation has its own silliness inherent. If you rule this way then a colossal creature can affect exponentially more targets with an emanation spell than a medium creature.

Correct. Size matters.

MyTThor wrote:

Why should size dictate that one has a much more powerful spell than others with smaller size but the same magical ability?

Because the spell emanates from them, and they are bigger so it emanates from a larger source. Plus, there's no facing.

[Skylancer4]

mplindustries wrote:

MyTThor wrote:

This interpretation has its own silliness inherent. If you rule this way then a colossal creature can affect exponentially more targets with an emanation spell than a medium creature.

Correct. Size matters.

MyTThor wrote:

Why should size dictate that one has a much more powerful spell than others with smaller size but the same magical ability?

Because the spell emanates from them, and they are bigger so it emanates from a larger source. Plus, there's no facing.

Feel free to house rule as you see fit, but it doesn't work the way you run it. Facing is irrelevant but yet you seem to be hung up on it too. We've been told how it is supposed to work from the those "in the know" so I'm not sure why you're carrying on about your house rule. It obviously isn't going to change anything.

This is the forum where we discuss how rules actually work, you've stated openly you don't care. Go to one of the other more appropriate forums to continue on about how you don't care if it works the way it does, how you would change it and why.

[Icyshadow]

Valdast wrote:

Dotting for interest

I shall do the same, so here's my dot.

[mplindustries]

Skylancer4 wrote:

Feel free to house rule as you see fit, but it doesn't work the way you run it. Facing is irrelevant but yet you seem to be hung up on it too. We've been told how it is supposed to work from the those "in the know" so I'm not sure why you're carrying on about your house rule. It obviously isn't going to change anything.

This is the forum where we discuss how rules actually work, you've stated openly you don't care. Go to one of the other more appropriate forums to continue on about how you don't care if it works the way it does, how you would change it and why.

I never denied how the rules worked. The question was answered in the first few posts.

I only said that the way the rules actually work is inconsistent and silly. :P

[Kazaan]

mplindustries wrote:

I only said that the way the rules actually work is inconsistent and silly. :P

No, you said more than that. In two posts after your initial one, you first called out the idea of anchoring the emanation to a corner of your occupied area, and then went on to claim that size really does matter in these things which, by the actual rules, which we are actually discussing, it does not in this particular case. So, a summary of what you said:

1) (first post) I houserule it this way (describes houserule)
2) (first post) The actual rules are inconsistent and silly
3) (second post) The actual rules are still inconsistent and silly and should not be followed.
4) (Third post) My houserule, while different from the actual rules, is correct and the actual rules are wrong.
5) (Third post) My houserule makes more sense than the actual rules (which are inconsistent and silly), thus is correct and you should all totally follow it.

While "the way the rules actually work is inconsistent and silly" truly is something that you said, it is hardly the only thing you said.

[Sitri]

In all fairness, some people ask for direct quotes about rules, RavingDork did ask "How do you handle" this. It reads to me like mpl clearly stated how (s)he ran it and that it was a house rule. Later posts were explanations of why (s)he thought there was a need for a house rule. I am missing the problem.

[Seraphimpunk]

a 10' emanation on your toe / a corner of your square is patently ridiculous for larger creatures.

[Urklore in Irons]

Probably a house rule, but I take the emanation to extend whatever it's range is around the base creature.

So a 30' cube creature, has a 40' emanation, 10' around it's occupied squares, on the game board.

It hasn't been to be too damaging game wise thus far for us.

[Kazaan]

PRD wrote:

Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don't control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. When determining whether a given creature is within the area of a spell, count out the distance from the point of origin in squares just as you do when moving a character or when determining the range for a ranged attack. The only difference is that instead of counting from the center of one square to the center of the next, you count from intersection to intersection.

The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. Not a creature, not a square, not an object, but an intersection. For a standard 1x1 square medium creature, this means you pick one of the 4 corners and count out from there. In the case of a large or bigger creature, you select one of the intersections that the creature occupies and count from there.

PRD wrote:

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

Again, you always pick a point of origin for all AoE effects, particularly Burst, Emanation (which AMF is), or Spread.

PRD wrote:

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.

So, by RAW, an Emanation Area spell (ie. Antimagic Field) is anchored to a particular intersection that your character occupies. It stays on that intersection regardless of how you you travel distance and how you move withing your tactical area. You could be spinning around like a break-dancer and the emanation is spreading from an absolute position relative to space rather than from a particular body-part such as your toe. It also doesn't emanate from your "whole body", explicitly by RAW; emanation areas are not calculated that way unless there is an explicit exception. It would have to say, "Calculate the AoE of this effect as 10 feet extending from the edges of your character's occupied area, rather than from a single intersection".

Lastly,

PRD wrote:

Some spells allow you to redirect the effect to new targets or areas after you cast the spell. Redirecting a spell is a move action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Now, first off, AMF states nowhere that I found that it allows you to redirect the AoE. Nonetheless, the precedent remains that there is a codified rule to handle it already; it's a move action that does not provoke to "shift" the point of origin. This does not involve physically "turning" to aim it in another direction; it is the magical "willing" of the PoE to move. Why? Because magic, that's why. You're not juggling it between your left big toe or your right wingtip or any other part of your body... you're abstractly moving the point-of-origin such that the AoE covers a different area. Hell, a medium creature doesn't even occupy the entire 5' square area he is tactically entitled to. I measured it out; 5' by 5' is a pretty large area, giving you plenty of room to dance around in. The same goes for larger creatures. But since the system is abstracted, you are more like an electron in an electron cloud; you could be anywhere in that tactical area, but you need not be in any one particular place and no "placing" contradicts any other effect.

[mplindustries]

Kazaan wrote:

and then went on to claim that size really does matter in these things which, by the actual rules, which we are actually discussing, it does not in this particular case.

Someone asked me why I thought it made more sense to do it my way. Size mattering was one of my explanations.

Kazaan wrote:

The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection. Not a creature, not a square, not an object, but an intersection.

I am pretty sure most people involved in the thread know that is the rule. What has happened after said rule was pointed out were several people, especially me, pointing out how, to quote another poster, "patently ridiculous" it is for this to be the case.

The way the spell rules were written make fine mechanical sense, but make no sense carried into the game world. It is especially problematic for those of us who hate battlemaps and prefer to simply use actual distances like we always have.

A spell emanating from a creature makes a lot more sense than a spell emanating from some random point near where the creature is standing, especially when that point follows said creature around when it moves long distances, but doesn't follow every movement when twisting around in one's own "space."

The rules are clear. The actual in world effect of those rules is silly.

[Kazaan]

I never said the rules weren't silly... just pointing out that it is an abstraction of the system that actually exists and the whole idea of "the field is centered on my big toe" concept is a phantom issue; it doesn't exist. Also, just pointing out that you were incorrect in the assertion that you were "just" saying the rules were silly. It's still a rules forum so backing up advise with actual rules pretty much goes without saying. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

[Artanthos]

Kazaan wrote:

I never said the rules weren't silly... just pointing out that it is an abstraction of the system that actually exists and the whole idea of "the field is centered on my big toe" concept is a phantom issue; it doesn't exist. Also, just pointing out that you were incorrect in the assertion that you were "just" saying the rules were silly. It's still a rules forum so backing up advise with actual rules pretty much goes without saying. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

The issue exists nowhere outside of PFS. Rule 0 is easily applied to enforce common sense and the issue is resolved.

The alternative is dead people walking around acting without penalties, after all, the Dead condition does not state you cannot act.