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I'm running a Mythic Game as my players requested (Regretfully) and I'm close to making a ruling my players will not enjoy. Before I do so, however, I want opinions/interpretations from the community.
Can you use Mythic Haste in combination with Amazing Initiative to gain a second full round action?
A full-round action consumes all your effort during a round. The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action. You can also perform free actions and swift actions (see below).
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action, though if it does not involve moving any distance, you can take a 5-foot step.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
I think some might take the first two bolded sections to mean if you take a full round action you can't use the Move or Standard action from the Mythic abilities. I would disagree with that b/c I think they are the "Normal" and Mythic Haste/Amazing Initiative are the exceptions.
So my question then becomes: Does a Standard Action + a Move Action = a Full-Round Action? No where in RAW does it come straight out and say this is the case. But it does strongly imply that is the case (evidenced by the third bolded section).
I realize I could simply "Rule 0" that you can't gain a second Full-Round action, you simply get another Standard and another Move in addition to a Full-Round. But I prefer to have something with which to support my decision when I present it to the players. No one enjoys DM-Zilla. If anyone has anything to contribute to this topic, one way or the other, I'd appreciate your views.
If interested this is an example of why it has become an issue. But please, NO comments on the following spoiler. I'm just offering some context. I don't want it to derail the thread.
Once hasted (36 round duration thanks to Arcane Endurance, Orange Ioun Stone, and Rod of Extend) the Gunslinger will take two full round attacks using Mythic Rapid Shot and Mythic Deadly Aim.
His Path abilities give him 110-140 foot Move speed while hasted (Impossible Speed), the ability to move before or after a full-round attack (Fleet Warrior), and a range increment of 200 feet (Limitless Range).
If you don't see the issue yet let me explain. With TWO full-round actions his attack looks like 19/19/19/19/14/9 19/19/19/14/9 against TOUCH AC if the target is withing 200 ft. In addition he can move before or after each attack for 110 feet, a total of 220 feet of movement.
Each hit (which is basically ALL of them unless he rolls a 1 - No misfire for a level 13 Musket Master) does 1d12 + 27 damage. He has improved point blank and clustered shots so DR/Concealment is basically ignored. Assuming 5% miss rate he averages 318.25 damage a round not counting his 19-20 X 4 Crits. The BBEG's don't even get to open their mouths for an evil monologue before they are a puddle of goo.
I wouldn't care so much (Just throw in extra baddies) but he really out shines the rest of the party and no one came to watch "The One Man Show"
Now I realize that:
1) Gunslingers are overpowered. My mistake there.
2) Level 12+ is broken. PFS stops at 12 for a reason.
3) There are counters. Grapplers, Sunder/Disarm, Etc. But that's not the point. If I just locked him down every fight that's a whole new problem.
4) This is related but off topic.
So lets not get off topic. The focus of this thread is Does a Standard Action + a Move Action = a Full-Round Action?. I just wanted to offer some context so you understand why I'm bringing this up. And while that example is by far my biggest problem, it doesn't stop there.
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Your answer is right here.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
A full round actin is a completely separate animal not a combination of 2 lesser actions.
Your gunslinger can take a full round action AND a move action AND a standard action (or another move action). That's it.Still broken but not as terrible as 2 FRA's.
Personally I just remove Guns from the list for rapid reload, makes everything work much better.
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As for the dealing with his attacks against touch ac, consider giving the baddies a ridiculous deflection bonus or some other bonus to AC that's hard to overcome.
Look under the abilities you can give legendary items at tier 6.
One of them allows you to ignore AC and Deflection bonuses.
And for really broken, the gunslinger can take mythic vital strike and deal massive damage as a standard action.
I would rule the same as your rule 0 and say you get exactly what the abilities tell you that you get. Not another full round action.
Again lets not get hung up on the Gunslinger spoiler. I just wanted to offer context. The thread isn't about him but rather about the definition of a Full-Round Action.
Obviously both Darkstar and Mathwei agree with my interpretation:
Standard + Move =/= Full-Round.
But I don't think that Mathwei's Quote is the "Plain as Day" answer we are looking for. In fact that quote is the one piece of evidence that someone might use to justify the extra Full-Round.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
I can see that being interpreted either way.
Is he using paper cartridge to reload for free?
Also ask him help to let the other PC shine.
I have been in games where optimized DPS fighter was doing on average more than 3x the damage then anyone else about 90 - 120 a round and the other fighter was doing like 20-30.
So,
Does a Standard Action + a Move Action = a Full-Round Action?
No
A Full-Round Action is an action that takes the full round.
Types of actions
Full-Round Action
Standard Action
Move Action
free action
If the rules said something like you can downgrade to a lower action I would think yes, but all it says is you can use your standard to take a move.
edited
Again lets not get hung up on the Gunslinger spoiler.
I just wanted to offer context.
This thread isn't about him but rather about the definition of a Full-Round Action.
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Forgot about that one. In that case, maybe tack on 4 levels of monk to make use of mythic monastic legacy with a ridiculous WIS score on top to make up for the loss of armor for non-caster baddies.Look under the abilities you can give legendary items at tier 6.
One of them allows you to ignore AC and Deflection bonuses.
As a game master you can feel free to jack the opponents AC as high as you want.
How is this going to affect all the other players?
If you have raised AC to the point nobody can hit, you will destroy your game for the sake of countering a single player.
Given Mythic rules, I would define a full round action as a move action + a standard action.
Ruling otherwise is just going to drive more players towards Mythic Vital Strike.
I'm OK with that for two reasons.
1) If a rule drives players in a certain direction that's just game design. In this case driving players to Mythic Vital Strike has no relevance on the interpretation of the rules in my opinion.
2) From a balance perspective at least that is a feat tax to do absurd damage. And it would only be the equivalent of 3 attacks rather than 6 with a 13 BAB.
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Given Mythic rules, I would define a full round action as a move action + a standard action.
Ruling otherwise is just going to drive more players towards Mythic Vital Strike.
I'm OK with that for two reasons.
1) If a rule drives players in a certain direction that's just game design. In this case driving players to Mythic Vital Strike has no relevance on the interpretation of the rules in my opinion.
2) From a balance perspective at least that is a feat tax to do absurd damage. And it would only be the equivalent of 3 attacks rather than 6 with a 13 BAB.
In a few more levels, it will be the equivalent of 4 attacks, using the characters highest attack value. All the normal mods apply to the BAB.
Again lets not get hung up on the Gunslinger spoiler. I just wanted to offer context. The thread isn't about him but rather about the definition of a Full-Round Action.
Obviously both Darkstar and Mathwei agree with my interpretation:
Standard + Move =/= Full-Round.But I don't think that Mathwei's Quote is the "Plain as Day" answer we are looking for. In fact that quote is the one piece of evidence that someone might use to justify the extra Full-Round.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.I can see that being interpreted either way.
The operating word in that sentence is OR. As mentioned, there is NO statement of equivalency, at all, in the rules. A standard action and a move action together normally take the same amount of TIME as a full-round action. A full round action takes 6 seconds (approximately) to complete, and that's why it's a full round action. Neither Mythic Haste, nor Amazing Initiative, give the characters more time for their turn, it allows them to quickly add in a move or standard action to the actions they're already able to do during the round.
Unless an ability specifically says it gives an extra full-round action, it doesn't.
I guess at this point it comes down to interpretating one line referencing Full-Round actions. It is the only piece of language that I can find that might possibly support Standard+Move=FRA.
you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action.
This is the grey area to me. I can read that two ways:
1) You have the choice of a Standard+Move or a FRA. The two are separate choices and are not related to each other beyond proximity.
2) In a normal round you use a Standard and Move action, or you may use them to instead perform a FRA. I don't feel this is the intention but I can certainly understand how it can be interpreted this way.
The operating word in that sentence is OR. As mentioned, there is NO statement of equivalency, at all, in the rules. A standard action and a move action together normally take the same amount of TIME as a full-round action. A full round action takes 6 seconds (approximately) to complete, and that's why it's a full round action. Neither Mythic Haste, nor Amazing Initiative, give the characters more time for their turn, it allows them to quickly add in a move or standard action to the actions they're already able to do during the round.
Unless an ability specifically says it gives an extra full-round action, it doesn't.
I agree with most of this. There isn't a statement of equivalency. One can argue it is implied, which is the issue, but I don't think that is the case here. Especially given the language in the other lines referencing Full-Round Actions.
I'm not sure the duration of the actions support either argument, however. One could use it to argue the opposite point. If a Standard+Move = 6 seconds and a FRA = 6 Seconds then Standard+Move=FRA. But you do point out the rules lack any direct language indicating equivalency. I appreciate your post.
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Neither Mythic Haste, nor Amazing Initiative, give the characters more time for their turn, it allows them to quickly add in a move or standard action to the actions they're already able to do during the round.
Yes, both abilities allow the character to act more quickly.
Accomplishing more in a single round than non-mythic characters.
The question is, can they act quickly enough to double all aspects of what a non-mythic character can manage?
Or does taking two move actions and two standard actions somehow require less time than two full-round actions? Either way, the character is accomplishing twice as much.
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You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
If a Move+Standard was intended to combine to create a FRA then why isn't it directly stated. The Standard to Move is directly stated.
Of course one could also argue that it isn't directly stated b/c at the time you couldn't gain an extra move and standard in a round so there was no need for it. So no Joy there imo.
A full-round action requires an entire round to complete. Thus, it can't be coupled with a standard or a move action.
This is a useful bit as well as I reread it. If a FRA was created by combining your Standard+Move then why would there be a need to point this out? You would have already burned them for your FRA.
Instead it seems that if you perform a FRA then you still have your Standard + Move but not the time to use them. Hence you choose one or the other.
In the case of Mythic Haste/Amazing Initiative your using special abilities to speed up your actions to squeeze in more stuff.
To me that seems pretty conclusive that Standard + Move =/= FRA.
Does a Standard Action + a Move Action = a Full-Round Action?.
No it does not. Although it makes complete sense to rule 0 that it does.
Believe it or not, you can use Words of Power to give move and standard actions.
Full round actions also have swift actions and 5ft steps in addition to move and standard actions.
While the intent of a Full Round Action (as far as I can tell) takes up your Standard and Move Actions normally allotted to perform a FRA, it's safe to say that they are different animals by RAW.
Simply put, there is no clause in the RAW that supports the intent behind it, meaning the abilities do exactly as they say.
One idea that does come to mind with the combo presented is that you can use a Move Action to get in melee range, perform a Vital Strike with the extra Standard Action, and then do your iterative attacks. Pretty wicked stuff.
Then again, Vital Strike is king in Mythic Gameplay. Yet so horrible in any regular game...
I would say it seprate actions never another full round action, because Amazing Initiative is a limited standard action. You can not use it to cast a spell.
Another good point.
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As others have pointed out, FRA is a different action type and not simply Move + Standard. Likewise, Full-Attack Action is not the same as FRA, even though it consumes all your action. Whether you're Mythic or not, I don't think double FRAs should be allowed, especially when it's clearly spelled out in the core rules.
I had a similar question in the past regarding Sandals of Quick Reaction, which allow you to take a move action in addition to a standard action during the surprise round. That thread didn't get much response, but the conclusion was that you can't add the move action to the standard action to create a full round action. I'm not sure if there was ever an official ruling.
What I'm taking away from a number of recent threads is that DMs might want to consider whether Mythic Adventures makes sense for their play style and inform the players from the outset that anything which becomes an issue might be nerfed, banned, or otherwise house ruled in play. That said, you don't really need MA to "break" some of this stuff (but per the OP's wish I won't comment on that)