Ok, we have a 4 man level 2 party of synthesist summoner, ranger, sorcerer, and cleric. No magic items, just a masterwork longspear and composite bow for the party.
We already ran into a few encounters which depleted some of our spell and healing resources. The final encounter was the following:
Level 4 tiefling cleric
2 CR 2 skeleton thingies with 21 AC and +7 to hit.
3 level 1 tiefling rogues.
That's roughly CR 5-6 by my estimation which is a hard enough fight for a 2nd level party. What made it impossible was that the tieflings could each cast darkness (a 2nd level spell) and made everyone in the party useless except the summoner. Needless to say, a CR 5-6 or so encounter vs a level 2 party with 3 members unable to see didn't end well.
Because of the way the situation was set up, we felt we couldn't retreat.
The impossible part of this was the fact that the rogues could cast darkness at us and there was nothing we could do about it since nobody had access to higher than 1st level spells.
Am I being too sensitive or is there an actual way to beat the encounter given the circumstances?
The tiefling Cleric, provided it was built with the npc rules alone is a CR 3 encounter.
3 Level 1 Tieflings rogues are (I think) about Cr 1 1/2.
Those skeletons sound a bit skewed though.
Did the DM just not want to play or something? Seems to me like yall weren't meant to win. Keep in mind that darkness only drops light down 1 step. So in normal light yall are fighting in Dim Darkness.
It was dim light already which we used a 0th level spell to bring to normal light. However, the 0th level light spell is completely trumped by a 2nd level darkness spell.
Technically speaking, 3+CR over player level is an acceptable range, but it's meant to be exceptionally difficult.
The skeletons sound off. Unless they were 1 HD (which would beg the question of how they managed +7 to attack and 21 AC), they are higher than a CR2.
The encounter doesn't sound terribly difficult, from a strategic point of view. However, you mention that you felt you couldn't retreat; what were the circumstances for that? Could you not retreat to a more favorable position? Fighting that particular group of enemies could be done relatively safely from a distance or out in the open. Darkness isn't terribly difficult to counter if you aren't being ambushed by it.
A well planned ambush could decimate that encounter because it lacks versatility (assuming the skeletons don't have excessive hit points and the rogues don't carry an armory on their person). Did the sorcerer/summoner have any spells left at all?
It sounds like your party rushed into a room of death; they then turned the lights off and murdered you. Playing with lighting is dangerous as a DM, as it has the potential to be one of the most unbalancing factors in the game (which is why it's ridiculously easy to obtain dark vision). Still, it is inherently unfair for those races who don't have it when those circumstances arise in the lower levels. From a strategic standpoint, it's not the hardest thing to avoid, but it can be an issue.
The skeletons do sound unfair, though, because I can only imagine they had more than 1 HD. I wouldn't be too pleased about them.
However, rushing into an encounter like that with few resources and not considering a tactical retreat or relocation seems foolish, as it was meant to be an extreme challenge which for low levels means almost solely terrain, positioning, and initiative abuse.
Was it unfair? It was a little bit. Could you have handled it better? Probably, though I lack the specific details to make a fair assessment. From the information provided I think it's safe to assume fighting on their terms was suicidal.
I think you're supposed to be level 3 before you take on Palavine. Our group had substantially more members but we still ran into trouble because we were too stealthy and fought more of the mooks.
Also AC 21 +7 to hit are both abilities of the CR 2 Skeletal Champion from the Bestiary.
That's a total of 2600 XP, or slightly overbudget for a CR 6 encounter. Add to that encounter several conditions:
1) Party under WBL expectation
2) Favorable conditions for enemies (dim light + Tieflings)
3) Skeletons with AC of CR 8 creatures
Even with a synthesist, this was not a winnable combat. Have a discussion with your GM. Maybe he'd like a bit more practice running pre-written content before he tries building his own encounters again, or maybe he just doesn't want to run right now. If he insists (assuming that this is an accurate summation of the situation) that the combat was fair, that you guys missed some critical macguffin that would have saved everyone, or that he was otherwise not responsible for the TPK, don't play under him any more. Either ask that he step down as a GM or leave the group because, right now, he's not the kind of GM anyone needs.
I think you're supposed to be level 3 before you take on Palavine. Our group had substantially more members but we still ran into trouble because we were too stealthy and fought more of the mooks.
Also AC 21 +7 to hit are both abilities of the CR 2 Skeletal Champion from the Bestiary.
Ah, you are correct.
Giving them masterwork weapons and breastplate+heavy shield is a pretty harsh move in this scenario. With their base stats they would be challenging naked, using claw attacks.
Either ask that he step down as a GM or leave the group because, right now, he's not the kind of GM anyone needs.
This encounter is recognizably from an Adventure Path volume that doesn't give out enough XP, instead exhorting the GM to add extra "optional" stuff. ** spoiler omitted ** So this may just be an inexperienced GM hoping an AP would have everything necessary, rather than an actively malicious one.
That's really unfortunate. Just looking at the components of the encounter, I assumed that this encounter was some mom's basement original. It includes 2 of the Bestiary's toughest CR 2s and a bevy of enemies that can use the lighting to their advantage. Knowing that this is from an AP, though, makes it a good deal more problematic. Rather than the GM being incompetent or sadistic, he may well just be some poor sap that didn't realize how deadly this was going to be for the party and didn't adequately compensate beforehand.
Again, the AP wants you to have your characters at level 3 by that point, but it doesn't provide the XP for that to happen (it gives you a few ideas on how to go about writing your own material to fill in the gap). So the GM at least missed that bit, and then probably the cheese factor of the synthesist up to that point blinded him/her to the potential slaughterfest.
Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
ap spoiler:
Yeah, this sounds like it's the end boss to Bastards of Erebus. But slightly pumped up. The three rogues are escapees from previous fights, whilst the skeletons are supposed to be Wolf Skeletons. Unfortunately those aren't started up in either the adventure or the bestiary - it looks like the adventure was written presuming that there would be a entry for them like there was in the Monster Manual, but that didn't make it.
There is no reason that you shouldn't be able to retreat scripted in. The Bastards are the sort that would give up their base after a failed attack.
I would note that this is what jumps out as the toughest ore scripted encounter in all of Council of Thieves.
Hmmm, when I GM'd this my group did not have that hard a time dealing with this but then again some of them had darkvision and they were level 3.
As for the Skeletal Champion, if the GM grabbed them instead of stating up a pair of Skeleton Wolves..OUCH. That would have been overkill.
This AP had a number of issues with it but the first one was that it did not have enough XP in the sewers. I remedied that but if the GM didn't realize it then things could get dicey.
Lesson here: NEVER run an AP without analyzing the balance and making adjustments relative to your party. Either it'll be too easy (pretty common) or too hard (happens sometimes).
This AP has places where way too much treasure is handed out and others where not enough is handed out. It required re-balancing.
There's no reason both of these can't be true... ;)
More seriously, I'd be rather disgruntled if I'd been in that situation. If you'd had some more low-level magic items it would have helped a bit, but mostly I would have hoped for a chance to ready yourselves first - regain spells and so on. I know you can't expect to be able to do so for each encounter, but that fight screamed out for as much situational advantage for the PCs as could be had.
Sadurian, in that particular section of the AP, there really is no time to rest before that encounter. Unfortunately, a GM that runs that right out of the book is going to probably kill PCs more often than not since there is a problem with the beginning of the AP.
Add on to that the *likely* error with the skeletons and well...that TPK just became a lot more probable.
The DM says that he upgraded the skeletons to champions because he thought we were burning through the earlier encounters too easily. I forgot that the sorcerer had a wand of magic missiles as well (completely useless anyway in this situation)
We didn't retreat at that point because:
a) we didn't know it was the big boss fight until too late
b) the DM had earlier stated that he wasn't a big fan of going partially through a dungeon and retreating and coming back. He warned of 'severe consequences' but didn't go into detail.
The sorcerer and summoner were down to only 1 spell each left at that point, but being at full strength wouldn't have mattered.
Summary of party:
Synthesist: Half elf Biped with HP 29 AC 21 (with mage armor) and either d6+3/d6+3/d6+3 or a d8+4 with a 15' reach longspear and combat reflexes. 1 spell spent on mage armor and 1 spell on rejuvenate eidolon. 1 spell left at that point (enlarge person was last spell known).
Ranger: Human with HP 19 AC 16. Does either D8+4 with bow or 2d6+6 with greatsword. Had point blank shot and precise shot as feats.
Sorcerer: Human with draconic bloodline. HP 14 AC 15 (with mage armor). Had wand of magic missiles so could do 1d4+1 damage. Had already cast mage armor and 3 personal magic missiles up to that point leaving 1 spell slot left. Known spells were magic missile and mage armor.
Cleric: Human. HP 18 AC 17. Usually uses a longspear for 1d8+3 damage. Had already cast bless and had 2 remaining channelings left. Had bless, shield of faith, and longstrider (D) left in memory.
Everyone was at full HP at this point. I don't see how the situation would change even if we had managed to rest before the encounter. The killer was the darkness and we had no counter to that even if we had known about the encounter beforehand. I find it kinda ridiculous that even level 1 tieflings can cast a level 2 spell that a typical party can do absolutely nothing to counter. Usually it requires a lvl 3-4 caster to do that.
There seems to have been a simple counter to the darkness effect you missed. A torch. The sorceror could hold a torch in one hand and use the wand no problem.
That creates an area of Normal light which would then have been reduced to Dim, 20% miss chance is not overwhelming. The 'useless' wand of magic missiles unerringly hits.
Your sorceror using magic missile as his first level spell is a big weakness as well but thats not uncommon. Sleep would probably have taken down all 3 rogues.
The Summoner and ranger should cut the rogues to pieces in hand to hand even in dim light.
Seems a difficult but winnable encounter with decent party tactics. I may well have retreated and would have done if I felt the encounter was as winnable as you obviously did
There seems to have been a simple counter to the darkness effect you missed. A torch. The sorceror could hold a torch in one hand and use the wand no problem.
That creates an area of Normal light which would then have been reduced to Dim, 20% miss chance is not overwhelming. The 'useless' wand of magic missiles unerringly hits.
Normal sources of light do not increase the level of light.
Andrew Moreton 844 wrote:
Sleep would probably have taken down all 3 rogues.
No way in which you can get a full round to cast this spell with nobody distupting you in such an ambush.
Even with a synthesist, this was not a winnable combat.
Actually cr+4 encounters are when the chances of winning are close to 50-50. Cr+0 and lower encounters are generally 100% chance to win, usually with casualties.
Unwinnable encounters are closer to cr+7 and higher, and aren't total losses either, depending on what you fight
This can't possibly be a 50-50 chance. Especially since the 3 lvl 1's made sure that most of the lvl 2 party couldn't see since they could each throw out a darkness spell that couldn't be countered in any way by the lvl 2 party.
hang on here! This was a *totally* winnable encounter!
So it wasn't that you *couldnt* retreat, it was that you *didn't* retreat. That is completely different. I'm not saying you should have ignored your GM's warning either, but just think about it for a minute.
What was giving you the most trouble? : Darkness.
How long does Darkness last?: A few minutes (piece of cake spellcraft check)
How often can a tiefling cast darkness? 1/day (K. Planes, not hard either). If you didnt crack this one, you could make a guess, probably they're not giving at-will darkness abilities to PC classes.
So why didn't you retreat out of the room -just for a few minutes- and come back when the darkness had faded? Surely your GM would not have imposed "dire consequences" on you for waiting ONE MINUTE, which is how long the darkness cast by a L1 tiefling rogue will last.
If they all cast in succession, big deal, you retreat again, and come back a minute later, and then another minute later, and so on. Yes, it might have taken several false-attacks. But the tactical move here was to wait for them to run out of darkness and then fight. You only needed to fall back 20 feet.
CR+4 is definitely doable with a very tactically inclined party, especially if they are somewhat optimized. There are a few very big monsters that break this understanding of CR, but an encounter built to challenge a party consisting of lesser enemies is certainly a winnable encounter. However, you can't just barge in and try to overpower them. That won't work; you will be slaughtered unless you are playing the pokemon party with enough summons/companions to go toe-to-toe with an army of mooks.
You seem to have a big issue with darkness, however, it's not a huge deal unless you are ambushed or trapped and don't happen to have dark vision. Simply running away could have prevented a TPK, or the tactical use of sleep or color spray, etc. If you get the jump on them they may never get the chance to waste the first round of combat to cast a darkness spell (and believe me, against an optimized party, using a standard action to cast darkness can be suicidal).
The key to victory against that sort of encounter is either getting the drop on it and wiping half of the mobs (or more which is more than possible with a few first level spells, magic missle not being one of them) or simply whittling them down via ambush/hit-and-run/traps or superior ranged combat (it has virtually no long range potential).
Running blindly into an encounter hoping to slug it out with anything that doesn't have "Helpful NPC" written on its forehead is a surefire way to get TPKed, for future reference. I've played with harsh DMs before, and believe me when I say that a few monsters with a couple of mediocre spell-like abilities is not particularly challenging to a party well versed in dungeon-crawling.
Just be glad you don't have to carry around a 10-ft pole all the time.
Whether or not your group wants to play like this is another matter entirely. Barring any severe circumstances hindering their chances of success, that encounter is winnable by a 2nd level party. It for damn sure isn't easy, but it's doable. However, it's not everyone's cup of tea to not go toe-to-toe with the enemy and have a reasonable chance of success.
Getting 4 people to act and retreat when they and their opponents had a mix of initiative rolls would've been a nightmare. Combined with double movement costs for no visibility and that would've been a recipe to get the party killed piecemeal.
Basically if the higher initiative party members had started running away as soon as the darkness fell, the lower initiative members would've been surrounded and swarmed. If they wait for the lower party member initiatives, the entire party gets surrounded and swarmed in darkness.
No sleep or color spray. We did not get the drop on them. There's no t-shirt on the level 4 cleric that said "big boss level 4" so we couldn't know it was a CR 6 encounter. Even a hit and run strategy is filled with dangers since one failed will save means we lose a party member in an attack. Party had a mix of initiatives so moving as a group wasn't going to be easy, especially with the double movement costs of moving through darkness.
I still don't see how the math works out to 50-50.
Getting 4 people to act and retreat when they and their opponents had a mix of initiative rolls would've been a nightmare. Combined with double movement costs for no visibility and that would've been a recipe to get the party killed piecemeal.
The major problem here is that the tieflings managed to get close to your party and then activate their abilities. You had no scout? They didn't close any distance to get to you? They didn't die during the surprise round/first round of combat?
What you're describing is how you died, not why you couldn't win.
As an addendum to IdleAltruism, let's look at your chart
Lvl 4 NPC (CR 3) > Lvl 2 PC (by one level, NPC is one CR lower than PC)
CR 2 = Lvl 2
CR 2 = Lvl 2
3 Lvl 1 NPCs (CR 1.5) < Lvl 2
So it's slightly balanced against the PCs, barely, but only because it's actually slightly more than CR + 4 (barely, by one level 1 NPC rogue). If the PCs were level 3 as intended, you would have had a level advantage on this encounter.
This is why, as a GM, I've started running "test combats" to see how the characters can cope with encounters. This has resulted in me altering spell lists for the clerics (adding Protection from Evil, for instance) and downgrading encounters.
Mind you, I also up the difficulty of encounters because my groups are either higher level than expected for the AP or have more than four characters (or both). Still, trial runs also help me hammer out tactics for the enemy so that things are more effective (for instance, using terrain to full effectiveness).
Only possible scout would've been the ranger and his stealth, especially in armor wouldn't have been that great (+2 ranks, +3 class skill, -2 armor check penalty). He gets detected and he dies. Much safer at 2nd level to have the party stick together. Especially since ranger is one of our heavy hitters.
This was an underground area so starting ranges are pretty close, within one move. Tieflings beat our initiative so darkness was around us before we could react.
Our level 2 party had basically our starting equipment plus a masterwork spear and masterwork longbow and a wand of magic missiles. If you're going to downgrade NPC levels by 1 CR, you should downgrade the PC levels as well since we didn't have any more gear than an equivalent NPC would have and probably less. The 2 skeletons had masterwork weapons and the NPC cleric probably had a magic weapon (not sure about that)
So basically they got the jump on you and you lost. Forgive me, but I'm not a particularly empathetic individual. The way I see it:your party, as a whole (despite having a summoner), was poorly optimized and failed to utilize basic concepts of strategy. Instead of trying to locate the enemy you unfortunately turned around the wrong corner and got jumped against a force that couldn't have snuck up on you if they tried. Being underground doesn't change what it requires to be seen or heard. That they managed to get 3 people within 30 feet of your party without you noticing is most certainly your party's fault.
As I said earlier, this is where strategy is key. You ran into them and lost. Whether or not your group is ok with running this sort of game is up to your group. You obviously were not an optimized party; throwing this sort of challenge at you was harsh. How you handle the situation is up to you. Being blindsided can be rough, and most people would naturally respond negatively. If your group can handle a more challenging game, then good for you guys for taking a TPK in stride. If not, then there's nothing wrong with that either; games are meant to be fun.
There is a reason going beyond CR+3 isn't recommended (at least for lower levels, as by 10th you practically have to). It's hard. It's not against the rules. There is a reasonable expectation for veteran players to be able to handle it. However, it's certainly not for everyone.
It does make sense that the bigbad enemies have more gear then a relatively fresh group which hasn't hit any hauls yet. I mean, the way your group is going to get more loot is by taking it from these guy's bodies.
I fail to see how individual initiative prevented retreat. They have 6 people you have 4... and three of them acted first. The one cleric isn't likely to rush forward to block a retreat and risk getting killed himself, so you all died because you were afraid of two skeletons cutting off one or two people? And the one or two who get cut off can simply run past the skeletons and take the AoO. Getting wounded sounds better than dying here especially since you were at full HP.
Assuming I'm right about this being from the AP I mentioned, Palavine and the two skeletons are in a back room compared to the others, so it probably took at least one round for them to come out (and I think Palavine likes to buff, and he likes his skeletons to be bodyguards). First round would have probably just been against the mook rogues.
So basically they got the jump on you and you lost. Forgive me, but I'm not a particularly empathetic individual. The way I see it:your party, as a whole (despite having a summoner), was poorly optimized and failed to utilize basic concepts of strategy. Instead of trying to locate the enemy you unfortunately turned around the wrong corner and got jumped against a force that couldn't have snuck up on you if they tried. Being underground doesn't change what it requires to be seen or heard. That they managed to get 3 people within 30 feet of your party without you noticing is most certainly your party's fault.
As I said earlier, this is where strategy is key. You ran into them and lost. Whether or not your group is ok with running this sort of game is up to your group. You obviously were not an optimized party; throwing this sort of challenge at you was harsh. How you handle the situation is up to you. Being blindsided can be rough, and most people would naturally respond negatively. If your group can handle a more challenging game, then good for you guys for taking a TPK in stride. If not, then there's nothing wrong with that either; games are meant to be fun.
There is a reason going beyond CR+3 isn't recommended (at least for lower levels, as by 10th you practically have to). It's hard. It's not against the rules. There is a reasonable expectation for veteran players to be able to handle it. However, it's certainly not for everyone.
Ah, so basically your suggestion is to not even go underground since there were no areas in the dungeon that wasn't greater than 30' away. We should only move on vast plains where we have huge visibility and where we could never get ambushed ever.
Kinda problematic on an AP where you need to go underground to you know, actually progress on the adventure.
Some notes on basic strategy in a dungeon. Check all doors for traps and then listen at them for a while. Explore everything you can without opening a door and leave alarms and or traps in case those door get opened behind you.
Retreating out a door is not that hard. Door opens and combat starts. First thing that should not happen rushing in.
The first round is when you use ranged weapons or better yet AoE attacks. Alchemist fire is the way to go here. Burning hands works quite well for casters.
A good door breach for you guys would have the summoner open a door and move in 10 feet. With his spear he will be in great position to to get AoO. He should not close and give an attacker a full attack when he has reach and combat reflexes.
Ranger moves into room but stays behind Summoner and uses ranged until enemies close then switches to great sword.
Cleric moves in to room as well and covers the other flank. With reach he can engage whatever engages the summoner and yet be behind enough to cast spells for round or two.
Sorc stays in hallway and casts into room.
Retreat from this is fairly easy
Try and get you cleric into full plate
Mage armor is okay for a socr to have a first level but MM is not good until you can cast 2. Wand is better. Burning hands, sleep, color spray, and even unseen servent would have been more useful
Assuming I'm right about this being from the AP I mentioned, Palavine and the two skeletons are in a back room compared to the others, so it probably took at least one round for them to come out (and I think Palavine likes to buff, and he likes his skeletons to be bodyguards). First round would have probably just been against the mook rogues.
The whole group of 6 was all together and acting in coordination. First thing the cleric did was cast hold person on ranger. It makes sense and I'm not going to hold that against the DM since we already had a couple of encounters and the lair was alerted at that point.
But he apparently beefed up the ending encounter against an under leveled and under geared party when the original encounter should have already presented a major challenge.
..wait, you had 6 people? You definitely should have been able to win then.
Retreat was definitely an option. You only needed to go 20 feet max. Even for a heavy armored character, with movement penalties, that is a single turns worth of movement.
Sounds like roughly a CR 6 encounter, which is certainly harsh for a 2nd level party. If one of the posters above was correct in suggesting this might have been something you were supposed to take on at 3rd level, then that's a bit more reasonable (still tough) since it'd be APL+3 (difficult, but somewhat appropriate for a final battle).
Alright, so that's CR but what about the actual enemies? Clerics are a pain in the butt of course, so that one's going to be very tough, but the others are rather weak. From a strategic point of view, skeletons and low-level rogues should be rather easily picked off (neither is generally known for defenses), and since they only have one cleric, such a tactic should be possible (i.e. you should be able to pick them off faster than the cleric can help them). Doing so makes the CR go down and the encounter get easier with every minion enemy that falls.
Sounds like the strategy here is meant to be to pick off the minions as fast as possible as a cohesive group, and to manage to survive the cleric while doing so, eventually leaving him/her as the only one left, and (hopefully) easy to gang up on.
It also sounds like your GM was playing them with much better tactics that the adventure says they use, though I'm just basing this off of the comments of some of the people above.
It is how the cr system works. CR+4 means the opponents are roughly equal in power to the pcs.
Real tactics are hard, it happens
Ok, ignore this specific situation and go with a more general situation.
Let's take 4 level 2 PCs of classes A, B, C, and D. Their opponents are 4 NPCs of class A, level 4, class B level 3, class C level 3, and 3 class D's level 1.
Using the 4 actual classes, we'd get:
synth 4 vs synth 2
ranger 3 vs ranger 2
sorcerer 3 vs sorcerer 2
3 cleric 1 vs cleric 2
I don't think mixing up which classes get which levels matters much, except if we use 3 synth 1's for the NPCs, it's be completely frightening.
According to the CR rules, this is CR 6 vs APL 2 or CR+4 encounter.
If you have 100 arena fights between the teams, do you think the 4 level 2's are going to win 50 of them?
Sounds like roughly a CR 6 encounter, which is certainly harsh for a 2nd level party. If one of the posters above was correct in suggesting this might have been something you were supposed to take on at 3rd level, then that's a bit more reasonable (still tough) since it'd be APL+3 (difficult, but somewhat appropriate for a final battle).
Alright, so that's CR but what about the actual enemies? Clerics are a pain in the butt of course, so that one's going to be very tough, but the others are rather weak. From a strategic point of view, skeletons and low-level rogues should be rather easily picked off (neither is generally known for defenses), and since they only have one cleric, such a tactic should be possible (i.e. you should be able to pick them off faster than the cleric can help them). Doing so makes the CR go down and the encounter get easier with every minion enemy that falls.
Sounds like the strategy here is meant to be to pick off the minions as fast as possible as a cohesive group, and to manage to survive the cleric while doing so, eventually leaving him/her as the only one left, and (hopefully) easy to gang up on.
It also sounds like your GM was playing them with much better tactics that the adventure says they use, though I'm just basing this off of the comments of some of the people above.
Actually, a heroic NPC with PC wealth is CR=level, and 4 enemies is CR+4, so a party with APL=X that fights of against an enemy party with exactly equal level and wealth, will have that challenge at CR+4.
That said, characters and monsters are not created equally and CR is a very very rough measurement. It can give a hint of "red dragons are bad for first level parties" but you can't rely on them, unfortunately.
Explore everything you can without opening a door and leave alarms and or traps in case those door get opened behind you.
So, you stop and listen at a door. You fail to hear mob A behind the door (which may be something that doesn't have to open the door to attack you - such as an ooze or something with access to an assassin's hole or somebody that simply pours oil under the door - or it may be something that can disable the trap such as a party which includes a rogue), you move on to the next door where you face mob B with mob A at your back.
Mathius wrote:
Retreating out a door is not that hard. Door opens and combat starts. First thing that should not happen rushing in.
Highly situational (for example, you may surprise the enemy and don't want to waste your opportunity)
Mathius wrote:
The first round is when you use ranged weapons or better yet AoE attacks. Alchemist fire is the way to go here. Burning hands works quite well for casters.
Depends on the room's size, contents, lighting, and a host of other factors. For example, if you are underground and the room is full of straw (perhaps a wolf den for a bunch of orcs) setting all that straw on fire can create an alarm and blind and choke you.
Mathius wrote:
A good door breach for you guys would have the summoner open a door and move in 10 feet. With his spear he will be in great position to to get AoO. He should not close and give an attacker a full attack when he has reach and combat reflexes.
Ranger moves into room but stays behind Summoner and uses ranged until enemies close then switches to great sword.
Cleric moves in to room as well and covers the other flank. With reach he can engage whatever engages the summoner and yet be behind enough to cast spells for round or two.
Sorc stays in hallway and casts into room.
This is a huge mistake if you've got 5ft wide halls/doors
Actually, a heroic NPC with PC wealth is CR=level, and 4 enemies is CR+4, so a party with APL=X that fights of against an enemy party with exactly equal level and wealth, will have that challenge at CR+4.
That said, characters and monsters are not created equally and CR is a very very rough measurement. It can give a hint of "red dragons are bad for first level parties" but you can't rely on them, unfortunately.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the CR system breaks down here.
4 level 2 PCs have 8 total levels and 4000 wealth according to the chart.
1 level 4, 2 level 3, and 3 level 1 NPCs have 13 total levels and 6870 wealth according to the chart.
So the first party is down 5 levels and has over 40% less wealth and yet is expected to have a 50% chance of winning?
I like to use the example of the ocean in situations like these. A low level party simply is incapable of swimming across the ocean; should they attempt to do so, they will eventually become exhausted and drown. Any GM who expects them to cross the ocean in this fashion is being unrealistic, and any GM who drops them into the ocean with no land in sight is basically just killing them off. At the same time, if a player decides to swim across the ocean rather than buying a boat, he's really only got himself to blame when he drowns.
It's often difficult to tell what the situation was without having been at the table. Sometimes players don't take the hint that they're totally outmatched until it's much too late, other times the GM didn't give enough of a hint, and other times (this sounds to be the case) he honestly misjudged the encounter or the PC's abilities and steered them into conflict when he shouldn't have. Without seeing the finer details here, it's hard to say what went on, but from the sounds of it he was trying to create a memorable and challenging fight and went too far.
Celanian wrote:
How is CR+4 a 50-50 chance of winning?
This is a common approximation. It works fairly well for mid-to-high level PC's with 15-20 point buy, no hero points, and a standard WBL.
NPC's use the heroic array (if they have PC class levels) or the standard array (if they have NPC class levels) and also have lower wealth levels than a PC would. Typically, NPC's also have a lower level of optimization. For these reasons, PC's are usually treated as +1 CR over an equal-level NPC when doing a straight combat-value comparison. At lower levels, however, the WBL difference between PC's and NPC's hasn't really broken away yet so this approximation doesn't work well.
Having GMd this particular encounter before I can tell you that the situation the OP presents is a nearly impossible one.
The OP's group was under equipped and under level. This is a problem with that AP that the Developers have acknowledged and suggested remedies for. At the time the AP was written the Pathfinder rules were incomplete and the developers were not sure what experience point system was going to be written in. The AP was written as a "Fast" XP rate up until level 2 and then a "Medium" XP rate thereafter. But, that is not what it stated.
I do not know if the GM was aware or unaware of the flaws in this AP. I do not know if he knew he was using the incorrect skeletons or not (by substituting the proper creatures with Skeletal Champions).
But, due to the player's lack of equipment and lack of level in addition to the GM's statement that if they leave and return there will be "severe consequences" then this was a near guaranteed TPK.
P.S. The group I GM'd was optimized, at level 3, and with proper equipment for their level (~3000gp each) and STILL they had problems with this encounter as written. They did defeat it, but it was rough going.
