Goblin Squad Member
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Mentally I was kind of equating it to a -10 in EVE being unable to join a fleet and take advantage of things like Command Ship or T3 boosts, fleet broadcasts, watchlists, etc. Having been -10 myself a time or two (before FW and all its impact to standings), I find myself strangely OK with the idea.
But you can join fleets at -10, have been there a few times myself and back again.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Highly notorious characters would get benefits similar if not identical to those achieved by highly reputable characters.I would be extremely wary of that.
I was thinking that notoriety would be increased by the same kind of things that wold increase reputation, and diminished by the same things that diminish reputation. The point would be to prevent reputable types and notorious types from both increasing the same settlement's reputation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Obviously, a rethink on many things will have to be considered, based on the new Dev Blog.
@ Being, yeah, same with SAD.... No More Outlaw Flag
Make the adjustments you need to make but I do believe that you are on to something on how to play Chaotic Neutral in PFO. I love that alignment and want to see it well represented so I would like to see this cut and trimmed to where it can actually be Chaotic Nuetral and not CE in disguise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking that notoriety would be increased by the same kind of things that wold increase reputation, and diminished by the same things that diminish reputation. The point would be to prevent reputable types and notorious types from both increasing the same settlement's reputation.Highly notorious characters would get benefits similar if not identical to those achieved by highly reputable characters.I would be extremely wary of that.
Ah! I see much more clearly now. I withdraw my wariness :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was thinking that notoriety would be increased by the same kind of things that wold increase reputation, and diminished by the same things that diminish reputation. The point would be to prevent reputable types and notorious types from both increasing the same settlement's reputation.Highly notorious characters would get benefits similar if not identical to those achieved by highly reputable characters.I would be extremely wary of that.
If two metrics can be mathematically converted back and forth, they are functionally the same thing. I guess I do not see the point of the notoriety metric as you proposed. What I do think is that Notoriety would be a great name for a player/company/settlement driven metric since usually it can be assumed that the majority of changes will be negative.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Make the adjustments you need to make but I do believe that you are on to something on how to play Chaotic Neutral in PFO. I love that alignment and want to see it well represented so I would like to see this cut and trimmed to where it can actually be Chaotic Neutral and not CE in disguise.Obviously, a rethink on many things will have to be considered, based on the new Dev Blog.
@ Being, yeah, same with SAD.... No More Outlaw Flag
Don't worry, GW can take away the flags or the alignment system or any other system they wish to.... My character will still be played Chaotic Neutral. As I stated earlier, I found a definition of CN:
A Chaotic Neutral character could be a really good person, who has done a few really bad things or; A Chaotic Neutral character can be a real Lunatic!"
I can see Bluddwolf being played as both definitions.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me Good is seeking to benefit others, at a cost to yourself, evil is seeking to benefit yourself at a cost to others.
Why do I define TEO as good? Because would it not be much simpler for us to take the stance of "We will only protect our own interests. TEO's military forces will be put to the task of making sure our cities and merchants remain secure. The rest of the server can slaughter each-other indiscriminately, as long as it doesn't effect us, we don't care!"
Instead we are taking up for the weak and oppressed which is drawing a lot of heat down us, and will undoubtably keep our forces hard pressed. We may not always deliver our message politely (especially to our enemies) and we are certainly not all above the usage of violence but if TEO knows nothing about you and you wander into 20 TEO soldiers in a dark alley carrying the Holy Grail you are safer for them being there.
Is that so different from the more zealous good aligned characters in Pathfinder lore and the campaigns you've played?
Why I define UNC as evil is because in that same situation they'll have a new grail and your blood will be decorating the walls of that alleyway. They benefited themselves, at a cost to you, knowing nothing about you.
With a true chaotic neutral group, you'll get away 90%+ of the time if you don't belong to an enemy group. But don't expect them to help you if you don't have the coin to pay for it either, because neutral generally benefits themselves but rarely at the expense of anyone but their enemies.
The best examples of chaotic neutral I can give (though they both displayed chaotic good tendencies during their career) is Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds. They would fight against oppressive regimes like The Empire and The Alliance but only because "I'm in it for the money." Once they got caught up in the ideals and started fighting for them, is when they shifted to chaotic-good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The best examples of chaotic neutral I can give (though they both displayed chaotic good tendencies during their career) is Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds.
[Sheriff Bourne has caught Mal returning stolen medicine to a plague-stricken town]
Sheriff Bourne: You were truthful back in town. These are tough times. A man can get a job. He might not look too close at what that job is. But a man learns all the details of a situation like ours... well... then he has a choice.
Mal: I don't believe he does.
Mal was always Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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True enough, I suppose the best way to put it for him is the role he generally played was CN but his core alignment was CG, and he sometimes acted on that.
He does have a few good CN moments though.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think dealing with someone that just directly threatened you or your family (Inara first clip, whole crew from second guy) is a non-Good action. You want River Tam pre-M(spoiler) for CN. Mal was always Robin Hood-style the best example of CG I've ever seen. (I have strong feelings about Firefly and Fox's sudden but inevitable betrayal).
The best CN I can think of is the Joker.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't think dealing with someone that just directly threatened you or your family (Inara first clip, whole crew from second guy) is a non-Good action. You want River Tam pre-M(spoiler) for CN. Mal was always Robin Hood-style the best example of CG I've ever seen. (I have strong feelings about Firefly and Fox's sudden but inevitable betrayal).
The best CN I can think of is the Joker.
Joker is definately CE. Serial Killer with no method only madness. He's got plans, but they usually are only fully understood by only himself and involve his fellow villains being expendable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Almost completely off-topic...
There are dozens of Firefly alignment matrices on-line, but my favourite has:
LG - Shepherd Book
NG - Zoe Washburne
CG - Mal Reynolds
LN - The Operative
NN - River Tam
CN - Jayne Cobb
LE - Jubal Early
NE - Badger
CE - YoSafBridge
All pretty good choices.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why I define UNC as evil is because in that same situation they'll have a new grail and your blood will be decorating the walls of that alleyway. They benefited themselves, at a cost to you, knowing nothing about you.
With a true chaotic neutral group, you'll get away 90%+ of the time if you don't belong to an enemy group. But don't expect them to help you if you don't have the coin to pay for it either, because neutral generally benefits themselves but rarely at the expense of anyone but their enemies.
The best examples of chaotic neutral I can give (though they both displayed chaotic good tendencies during their career) is Han Solo and Malcolm Reynolds. They would fight against oppressive regimes like The Empire and The Alliance but only because "I'm in it for the money." Once they got caught up in the ideals and started fighting for them, is when they shifted to chaotic-good.
1. Your definition for the UNC is off base. First you believe that our first inclination is for violence, not true. We will be masters of Intimidation, through the threat of violence. We are Chaotic Greedy, above all else, and if we can get at least 20% of your loot without a fight, we'll take it. It is a matter of efficiency of time. We could probably SAD 5 caravans in the time that it would take us to ambush, kill and loot 1 caravan.
2. With a true Chaotic Neutral group would would get away with your life only 50% of the time and with your gold, even less so. The only thing you can count on a Chaotic group to be 90% of the time, is chaotic.
Neither of your picks for CN are CN... Han Solo is Chaotic Good and Mal Reynolds is Neutral Good.
Neither had ever committed an act that you might consider evil. Solo was driven by greed, but it would never have been at the expense of the weak. Captain Reynolds was far too selective of his jobs, and noble, to be considered chaotic or neutral. He would predictably do the right thing, whether that meant breaking the law or adhering to a code.
When it comes to TEO's intentions, you only speak in terms of following a strict belief system, striking down those that oppose you, striking down at those that may even indirectly support those that oppose you, and exiling to lesser status those that do not agree with you.
Your belief that you are NG, just shows that you have not one shred of understanding of what the alignments mean. Your policies and beliefs are oppressive, intrusive and demonstrate a Lawful Evil tendency, more so than any other alignment.
But don't take my word for it, nor reject my word. Pull up a definition of Lawful Evil and match it up side-by-side with many of your comments, and you will see the connections that I'm making for yourself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What you are failing to see is the "freedoms" we take away from people is the freedom to murder. Nowhere does TEO sit there and try to restrict anyone's actions when they are not harming someone other than themselves.
Even fully chaotic-good factions stand against the oppression of the weak and restrict the "freedom" of others to oppress and abuse. That's because preying upon the weak is evil, and opposing it is good.
You just don't think we're good, because you're evil, by virtue of the fact you murder innocent people with no motivation stronger than greed, and you don't enjoy us pissing in your cereal.
The idea that we are lawful is laughable. Yes we have laws, and lawful players. We also encourage criminal elements and chaotic behavior that is targeted against evil. I consider that neutral good, but honestly I think I stand a chance of being classified as chaotic good if I don't make a conscious effort not to rob, sabotage, and use "dirty" tactics against our enemies too much.
The Ten Neutral Good Commandments
A list of Ten Commandments for a neutral good religion may look like this:
1. You shall lie only to evil-doers.
2. You shall not harm the innocent.
3. You shall not murder.
4. You shall help the needy.
5. You shall honor those who promote goodness.
6. You shall follow the law unless breaking the law results in more good.
7. You shall not betray others.
8. You shall bring evil-doers to justice.
9. You shall steal only to promote goodness.
10. You shall seek unlimited good for others.
Ten Neutral Good Sins
Likewise, a neutral good religion may list the following as sins. This list is given in the order of least severe infraction to most severe.
1. Refusing to defy authority to perform a good act.
2. Failing to speak out against an evil act.
3. Following a law or keeping your word when you feel that breaking the law would result in more good.
4. Theft, robbery, or willful vandalism unless it harms an evil being or cause.
5. Willful causing of harm to a good being.
6. Failing to assist good beings when they are in need.
7. Turning down a chance to destroy or bring to justice an evil being.
8. Allowing major act of evil to go unavenged. Betraying a friend or ally for evil reason.
9. The murder of an innocent.
10. Aiding the servants of Evil. Committing a heinous or demented act.
A code of conduct for a lawful evil organization may look like this:
1. You shall not lie.
2. You shall harm the innocent to advance yourself or promote order.
3. You shall kill to advance yourself or promote order.
4. You shall not aid the weak.
5. You shall honor legitimate authority that promotes you and your comrades.
6. You shall follow the law.
7. You shall not betray others.
8. You shall not aid criminals or those who protect the weak.
9. You shall use the law to advance yourself and your comrades.
10. You shall seek unlimited power over others and unlimited order in society.
Ten Lawful Evil Signs of Weakness
Likewise, a lawful evil character may consider the following as signs of weakness. A sign of weakness indicates that the character is straying from the cruel tenets of the lawful evil philosophy. This list is given in the order of least severe infraction to most severe.
1. Failing to use the law to harm others, even when there is no chance for personal gain.
2. Failing to assist or avenge a peer.
3. Failing to dominate those not worthy of respect.
4. Breaking your word to your peer or ally.
5. Refusing to punish the disobedient. Not pursuing vengeance when appropriate.
6. Failing to commit cruel acts that are in your best interest.
7. Failing to further your cause when opportunity presents.
8. Turning down a chance to gain power or wealth. Failing to corrupt an institution or being for material gain.
9. Betraying your superior without cause. Breaking your word to your superior.
10. Aiding the forces of Freedom and Goodness. Breaking a sacred oath.
Who is it that doesn't understand alignment?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't follow those to a "T" for Evil. I'd easily go down into "Poor town" and start handing out bread and aiding the weak, and gaining the affection of the poor during wartime. I mean, next time I need to throw 100 bodies at your wall, the ones that adore or admire you the most are more willing and willing men fight to the death harder :D. Sometimes, acts of good can lead into greater acts of evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Why spend so much time arguing about what "alignment" your going to be, or your company is going to be? It's like my 5yr old daughter telling other kids that shes a better "ballerina" then them, even though NONE of them have danced with each other before?
Why not just say what you are ( or are planning on being), let people say what they want, and prove it when the game comes out. I think I have read more arguments on what people plan on being/playing then on the actual systems GW is trying to let us in on.
(This is NOT aimed at anyone, just a general question/statement)
EDIT: after posting this, I got a GREAT thought in my head. What if after the game has been out for a bit (we can say the beginning of Open Enrollment) we find out that Bludd, Andius have teamed up! Sorry to finger you two out, but to me you two have the biggest "rivalry" (what I'm calling it for now) on the forums :D
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose I just like being right. ;)
The Ten Chaotic Neutral Commandments
.....
2. You shall not kill the innocent.
3. You shall not murder.
.....
In the past I've never given my character's alignment much attention. GL openly accepted "evil" member who adhered to our non-RPK rules on Darkfall. I would like to see this game be one where we can pay attention to our alignment without gimping ourselves into uselessness. We always run a policy of only killing people who are aggressive toward us or harmful to the community, and it's about time our in-game alignment reflect that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree with that, that INGAME they should reflect that. But since the game is not out yet, and no can open up a character menu, and see under their alignment, what they say, then there's no point in arguing :(. If ppl are discussing systems or ideas GW have given us, go ahead, continue to disagree as much as you want!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Joker is definately CE. Serial Killer with no method only madness. He's got plans, but they usually are only fully understood by only himself and involve his fellow villains being expendable.
My impression of the Joker is someone who just wants to see the world burn. In Gotham where the world is basically good, the Joker's actions come off as evil to counterbalance it (the foundation of neutrality). I honestly think if you airdropped Joker into a den of ultimate Evil he'd end up planting trees and hugging kittens to make that world burn too.
Hopefully this isn't entirely off topic because while not directly related to UNC this does seem apropos to rp pvp.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...Mal Reynolds is Neutral Good...was far too selective of his jobs, and noble, to be considered chaotic or neutral. He would predictably do the right thing, whether that meant breaking the law or adhering to a code.
The Alliance begs to differ. A lot.
You're right that Mal did whatever it took to achieve good. But nothing stood in the way of that, not even codes. The biggest code Mal had was "Don't mess with my crew" he shouted, stabbed, killed, even was this close to airlocking Jayne over it. But you remember that time the Alliance was being LE in a serious way and needed a major ass kicking, the crew hesitated, and Mal threatened his own entire crew?
Zoe was the real neutral good. When the Alliance's laws hurt people she broke them; but Mal was always her captain there was always that structure.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Conan is probably the best example of CN. He kinda, sorta tilts to CG/NN as he gets older but for most of his career he is the epitome of CN.
Jesse Pinkman of Breaking Bad I think is a solid CN example. Game of Thrones has plenty of good ones. The Hound and Bronn for sure. The Wyldlings are a terrific example of a CN populace.
From comic books, the Hulk.
I don't like to put Han Solo or Lando Calrissian in there. We see them as CN for such a short time before they convert to classic CG examples.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UNC Concept of Meaningful RP-PVP: Founding Belief of UNC
CN Principle: "Thou Shall Not Kill The Innocent"
UNC Chaotic Neutral Belief: "No One is Innocent"
One of our founding beliefs is that there is corruption and greed every where and in multiple forms. However, that corruption an greed is found more often than not, among the ruling or wealthy classes. Politicians and Merchants by their vary nature are greedy and oppressive.
A second founding principle of the UNC is that there is only self interest, in everyone's actions. Some may obscure it better than others, but none embark on any chosen path without the desire to gain something. No gain, whether it is material or not, comes without denying an opportunity for that gain to another person.
When you rule, you take freedom from me.
When you harvest, you take that opportunity from me.
When you sell something, that gold could have come my way instead.
When you stand, you occupy a space that I can not.
Everything gained, is taken , and therefore nothing you have, you have a right to hold.
WE are all corrupt and greedy. We are all takers. None of us are innocent. We are quasi Deities (immortals)and exceptional among mere mortals (NPCs) that serve no purpose but to be background noise of our adventures.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Gotta say, Bludd, I dread ever playing a game you design with this philosophy. It feels as if your belief in zero-sumism could extend to "if you're having fun, you're robbing from me" as well.
Just don't confuse me with Bluddwolf. His world view is not mine. As a matter of fact, I enjoy harvesting and crafting.....
I harvest Care Bears and craft their tears.... Lol just kidding.
No really, I do enjoy harvesting and crafting. I was a motorcycle crafter in Fallen Earth. That Open World PvP MMO had an excellent system and was really a solid game all around. It had a great community as well, if you were in an MC and liked to flag PvP.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UNC Concept of Meaningful RP-PVP: Founding Belief of UNC
CN Principle: "Thou Shall Not Kill The Innocent"UNC Chaotic Neutral Belief: "No One is Innocent"
I would expect a supposedly Chaotic Neutral faction of all people to understand that guidelines and principles are stronger than laws.
The basic principle, is you can't kill innocents, and you can't murder. You might be able to wave that off with a "No One is Innocent" in your personal code of ethics, but that is because your personal code of ethics is evil.
In Golarion morality is universal because you are judged by the gods. When your "chaotic neutral" character goes to Cayden Caliean and you're like "Hey dude, can I hang out in your temple a bit and get some cool cleric powers since I'm all totally chaotic neutral and stuff" he's going to be like "Yeah dude... I'm sorry but you just split that kindly old man's head in two with a meat cleaver for wearing a green hat... you kinda need to get the hell out of my temple before I have my clergy kill you."
And when you go to Desna and are all like "Cayden's being an idiot, but you seem cool, will you give me a blessing or something." She's going to be like. "Well... you see... I would... but that lady who's throat you slit because she 'wasn't sharing her gold' with you... yeah... I kind of liked her... and so... I kind of don't like you..."
In more mechanical terms, you are chaotic evil, so chaotic good will want nothing to do with you.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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UNC Concept of Meaningful RP-PVP: Founding Belief of UNC
CN Principle: "Thou Shall Not Kill The Innocent"UNC Chaotic Neutral Belief: "No One is Innocent"
One of our founding beliefs is that there is corruption and greed every where and in multiple forms. However, that corruption an greed is found more often than not, among the ruling or wealthy classes. Politicians and Merchants by their vary nature are greedy and oppressive.
A second founding principle of the UNC is that there is only self interest, in everyone's actions. Some may obscure it better than others, but none embark on any chosen path without the desire to gain something. No gain, whether it is material or not, comes without denying an opportunity for that gain to another person.
When you rule, you take freedom from me.
When you harvest, you take that opportunity from me.
When you sell something, that gold could have come my way instead.
When you stand, you occupy a space that I can not.
Everything gained, is taken , and therefore nothing you have, you have a right to hold.
WE are all corrupt and greedy. We are all takers. None of us are innocent. We are quasi Deities (immortals)and exceptional among mere mortals (NPCs) that serve no purpose but to be background noise of our adventures.
Your position statement makes claims anout reality that I do not believe are true. You make claims about philosophy that I do not agree with. You make claims that purport to apply to me that I do not subscribe to,
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Maybe GW should just sticky an Alignment Debate thread. A lot of us tend to turn every thread into something about alignment. In the Blog thread, Tork has outlined meaningful PvP and says there is more to follow. Right now, that's good enough for me.
If after a blog is released, I am agreeing with Andius's ideas, Bluddwolf's ideas, and Nihimon's ideas... I think that's a huge win for GW overall and makes a pretty decent statement about how much they are listening to us and have their finger on the pulse of the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There has always been alignment debates. Can still remember arguments back with original D&D of what each alignment meant. Each person is going to have their own view point.
200 years from now when we are playing the 15th Edition of D&D and the 9th Edition of Pathfinder. The argument will continue.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your position statement makes claims anout reality that I do not believe are true. You make claims about philosophy that I do not agree with. You make claims that purport to apply to me that I do not subscribe to,
Unless you have joined the UnNamed Company without me noticing, then my claims have nothing to do with you.
@Andius,
Calistria is Chaotic Neutral Deity of Thievery, Lust and Vengence. Do you believe her followers don't kill the "innocent" or that their vengeance never resorts to murder? Do you believe that not one of the many CN rulers found in the River Kingdoms have spilt the blood if the innocents or have employed assassins to murder their rivals?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I wasn't aware that the claims that the UNC made to me that used the phrase "when you..." applied only to members of the UNC.
I see that you mean that the UNC can create nothing, only take from a finite pool that others create. The UNC can displace someone to rule, can harvest only where other have already secured, can only make sales where competition is destructive, and can only stand where there is not room for another.
I was under the impression that you were making those claims about everyone, not just your own members.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wasn't aware that the claims that the UNC made to me that used the phrase "when you..." applied only to members of the UNC.
I see that you mean that the UNC can create nothing, only take from a finite pool that others create. The UNC can displace someone to rule, can harvest only where other have already secured, can only make sales where competition is destructive, and can only stand where there is not room for another.
I was under the impression that you were making those claims about everyone, not just your own members.
I'm not sure if your impression is genuine or you just don't understand. In either case, it doesn't matter whether you agree to the claims or not.
These are the views of the UnNamed Company, this is how we project them upon the world. The use of "You" was being used in a generic way to mean the same as "Anyone".
As for your other misunderstandings...
It is not that we can not create something, and I'm sure that we will have our own crafters to make the gear we use and expend during our exploits. I don't see us harvesting on the other hand, because there is just too many targets out there for use to raid for raw materials, for us to spend the time harvesting in the traditional sense.
The pool is not finite, it is infinite. Node will respawn; merchants and crafters will continue to ply their trade; combatants will continue to wear their gear down and look for replacements. Nothing in the game world is finite, except for settlement hexes.
Yes we can displace someone's rule, but we will not hold that rule for an extended period of time. We will instead, exploit those resources, run the captured settlement into the ground, destroy the structures that may be used against us in the future, and then sell the plot of land to the highest bidder in good standing with us.
"Only make sales where competition is destructive". Destructive of what? All sales are competitive. All sales has one who gains, one who loses and one who chooses to accept the price.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'd like to point out, Calistria is godess of trickery, lust, and vengeance. Though thievery I could easily see as a justifiable subset of trickery, it's not really what she's focused on when it comes to trickery. She's more about relishing in the art of deceiving someone and the technical mastery of persuasion. The end result is basically the same for you (though her domain covers a broader range of actions), but the motivations between your standard thief and a true worshipper of Calistria are quite different. Of course I'm not saying that she can't be your patron deity, or that you can't interpret her however you want, I'd just like to throw this in there as a bit of brain food.
A side note: while looking into Calistria, I found this interesting line in the Gods and Magic book: "Those who carry a grudge pray for her favor, as do the rare non-evil assassins pursuing a justified debt." Might be worth consideration for the developing team.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I wasn't aware that the claims that the UNC made to me that used the phrase "when you..." applied only to members of the UNC.
I see that you mean that the UNC can create nothing, only take from a finite pool that others create. The UNC can displace someone to rule, can harvest only where other have already secured, can only make sales where competition is destructive, and can only stand where there is not room for another.
I was under the impression that you were making those claims about everyone, not just your own members.
I'm not sure if your impression is genuine or you just don't understand. In either case, it doesn't matter whether you agree to the claims or not.
What matters to me is that that the claim is controversial. I'm not going to consider philosophical argue nets for or against it, because reality is the only final mediator of that dispute.
I think reality will show that many van rule without infringing your freedom, many can reap without taking anything that you could have, many will engage in commerce that you could not have, and many will stand where you never could.
Not all competition is zero sum, and you are free to select which opprutunities you pursue. The opprutunities you do.not pursue are not stolen or taken from you; they are the opprutunity cost of that which you do. Your time is the scarce resource which is spent according to your own decisions, and the results of your time spent are your responsibility, not anyone else's.
You squander your newfound immortality by believing that if you live forever, you have time to do everything. In truth, you have time to master doing but one thing, no matter how much time you have. Choose what you will master carefully, because you cannot unring a bell.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You squander your new found immortality by believing that if you live forever, you have time to do everything. In truth, you have time to master doing but one thing, no matter how much time you have. Choose what you will master carefully, because you cannot unring a bell.
So, this may be one of my new favorite quotes. I'm not even 100% of its meaning ( I get the gist) but after reading it, I had to read it out loud, and it just sounded cool.
It's up there with "Cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war."
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Goblin Squad Member
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To me Good is seeking to benefit others, at a cost to yourself, evil is seeking to benefit yourself at a cost to others.
Why do I define TEO as good? Because would it not be much simpler for us to take the stance of "We will only protect our own interests. TEO's military forces will be put to the task of making sure our cities and merchants remain secure. The rest of the server can slaughter each-other indiscriminately, as long as it doesn't effect us, we don't care!"
Instead we are taking up for the weak and oppressed which is drawing a lot of heat down us, and will undoubtably keep our forces hard pressed. We may not always deliver our message politely (especially to our enemies) and we are certainly not all above the usage of violence but if TEO knows nothing about you and you wander into 20 TEO soldiers in a dark alley carrying the Holy Grail you are safer for them being there.
Is that so different from the more zealous good aligned characters in Pathfinder lore and the campaigns you've played?
A true good group would do these things without making the selfish statement that they are doing it. You make this selfish statement to grand stand on how good you and your group will be.
At the same time grand standing that the UNC will be Evil.
Understand the difference between being actually good and selfish "good"? What your doing is more like LN as opposed to NG.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn't strive to protect others' freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or evil (and a desire to make those different from himself suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
Chaotic neutral is the best alignment you can be because it represents true freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
Chaotic neutral can be a dangerous alignment when it seeks to eliminate all authority, harmony, and order in society.
Above respect for life and good, or disregard for life and promotion of evil, the chaotic neutral places randomness and disorder. Good and evil are complimentary balance arms. Neither are preferred, nor must either prevail, for ultimate chaos would then suffer. This view of the cosmos holds that absolute freedom is necessary. Whether the individual exercising such freedom chooses to do good or evil is of no concern. After all, life itself is law and order, so death is a desirable end. Therefore, life can only be justified as a tool by which order is combated, and in the end it too will pass into entropy. (1)
Chaotic neutral characters believe that there is no order to anything, including their own actions. With this as a guiding principle, they tend to follow whatever whim strikes them at the moment. Good and evil are irrelevant when making a decision. Chaotic neutral characters are extremely difficult to deal with. Such characters have been known to cheerfully and for no apparent purpose gamble away everything they have on the roll of a single die. They are almost totally unreliable. In fact, the only reliable thing about them is that they cannot be relied upon! (2)
Chaotic neutral characters like to indulge in everything. This is the insurgent, the con-man, gambler, and high roller; the uncommitted freebooter seeking nothing more than self-gratification. This type of character will at least consider doing anything if they can find enjoyment or amusement. Life has meaning, but theirs has the greatest meaning. According to chaotic neutrals, laws and rules infringe on personal freedom and were meant to be broken. This character is always looking for the best deal, and will work with good, neutral, or evil to get it; as long as he comes out of the situation on top. The chaotic neutral is constantly teetering between good and evil, rebelling, and bending the law to fit his needs. (3)
Chaotic neutrals can also be completely random and unpredictable. They may shift allegiances at a moment's notice, or remain with a leader for years. The chaotic neutral character feels that there is no plan at all for the universe. Things just happen. They tend to believe in luck and chance, rather than fate or destiny. They don't care what happens to others, yet will not necessarily go out of their way to harm others. If someone stands in the way of their happiness, they may kill that individual or move on to something else. Their priorities tend to change as they experience new things in life. They may even appear to adhere to another alignment for some length of time, only to switch at an inappropriate moment. They can be the worst tricksters, conning people, not for gain, but for sheer amusement. The chaotic neutral may not be driven by fame or wealth, but may only take actions just to see what happens.
In direct opposition to the lawful neutral being, this character views ultimate freedom and disorder as most desirable. He sees good and evil in a secondary role, and neither should be allowed to interfere with pure chaos. Whether the individual chooses to do good or evil is of no concern. Violence is not a chaotic neutral trait, but adherents will often not hesitate to use intimidation and non-lethal violence to achieve their goals. These characters will almost always seek some selfish goal (such as acquiring wealth) in addition to the promotion of universal disorder, and are thus seen as "greedy" by others. Naturally, the chaotic neutral being won't see this as greed, but rather as "self-fulfillment." Thus, respect for others does not stand in the way of the pursuit of individuality. Since death is inevitable anyway, the chaotic neutral being isn't averse to speeding certain creatures on their ways if it's deemed necessary, although he won't go out of his way to inflict pain and suffering like an evil being would. Life can only be justified as a tool by which order is combated. (4)
A chaotic neutral character will keep his word if it serves his interests. He may attack an unarmed foe if he feels it necessary. He will not kill, but may harm an innocent. He may use torture to extract information, but never for pleasure. He may kill for pleasure, but is not likely to do so. A chaotic neutral character may use poison. He may help those in need and he prefers to work alone, as he values his freedom. He does not respond well to higher authority, is distrustful of organizations, and will disregard the law in pursuing his self-interest. He may betray a family member, comrade, or friend, but only in the most dire of situations. Chaotic neutral characters do not respect the concepts of self-discipline and honor, because they believe such concepts limit freedom to advance their self-interest. (5)
Here are some possible adjectives describing chaotic neutral characters: unreliable, independent, greedy, inconsistent, unpredictable, selfish, disorderly, anarchic, self-centered, confusing, unfettered, free, and individualistic.
Well known chaotic neutral characters from film or literature include: Captain Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean), Q (Star Trek), Peeves the Poltergeist (Harry Potter), and Conan the Barbarian.
Equivalent alignment in other game systems: Anarchist (Palladium), Road of Paradox (Vampire), Chaos (Warhammer), Anti-authority and Selfish (Alternity).
I've highlighted (bold) a few points that I have tried to keep in mind when developing my character's psychological / human interaction profile.
Are there some inconsistencies, yes there are. But, that too would be something that you would expect to see from a Chaotic Neutral.
So were Andius writes:
CN.. "Shall Not Kill the Innocent".... I add to that "Unless they stand in the way of my happiness". But, I would prefer to use intimidation or non lethal means to attain my happiness (ie. SAD backed by the threat of Ganking).
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Goblin Squad Member
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[Url]http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7h1?How-Golgotha-will-define-Griefing#9[/url]
This question came up in another thread, but I did not want to speak to it over there. The UnNamed Company considers the label of "In Good Standing" to be a description if the relationship between the UNC and the individual in question.
A character can have a +7500 Reputation and a CN alignment, and be in bad standing with the UNC. The opposite is true as well. A character could be LG and have a -7500 Reputation and be in good standing with the UNC. I understand that these two examples are extreme cases and unlikely, but they are meant to illustrate the main point:
"In Good Standing" belongs to the individual, company or settlement. What others believe of the player-character in question is secondary or perhaps completely meaningless to our decision to deal or not to deal with that individual.
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Goblin Squad Member
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UnC has my backing OOC. This game needs something to hate, and you guys can fit the bill nicely, or not, but that opportunity should be there, just as it should be the opportunity for others to help or hinder you to their fullest abilities. See you on the field of battle.
Nice necrothread, I woukd not have thought to revive it myself. I have retread through it all, but I'd imagine I've made a few conceptual changes since the OP.
Oh and the Rovagug thing was just to get a rise out of the usual suspects.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Faction of The UnNamed Company: Rovagug
The UnNamed Company will be devotees to the faction conflict, on the side of Rovagug...[more stuff]...
but, but!...this makes no sense, Rovagug is...oh...
Damn...I am such a usual suspect.
I am actually hopeful that the Outlaw Council is an NPC faction in PFO. That would be the ideal choice for the UNC. As far as deities are concerned, Besmara or Calistria.