How immortal is immortal?

[Ravingdork]

Immortal (Su): At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren’t treated as if you had rested, and don’t regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn’t apply if you’re killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.

Does the note about being 10th tier mean you no longer can be killed by anything at all? Like, you don't even take hit point damage or suffer from death effects anymore? Or does it mean that you still die, but ALWAYS come back short of being killed by an artifact?

[Shadow_Charlatan]

I always read it that at Tier 10 you come back 24 hours later if killed, unless you're killed by an Artifact in which case you don't you don't come back to life 24 hours later.

[James Risner]

Ravingdork wrote:

ALWAYS come back short of being killed by an artifact?

This is how I read it.

[Ipslore the Red]

Of course you still take HP damage. There is absolutely nothing that indicates otherwise. It just won't kill you. You aren't subject to the dying or dead conditions.

And to be clear: At 10th tier, you can't die at all unless it's specifically a coup de grace or a critical hit from an artifact. 9th tier says that when killed you come back. 10th says you can't be killed.

RAW says you can't die unless an artifact specifically coup de graces you or crits you hard enough to bring you to the death threshold. A normal hit from an artifact bringing you that low won't work.

[DM_Blake]

Methinks you're trying to be provocative here.

Obviously, the whole paragraph except the last sentence describes how 9th-tier mythics return to life and explains that there are a few exceptions that can kill them without returning to life, and equally obviously, that last sentence is a 10th-tier amendment that restricts even further the limited number of exceptions once they reach 10th-tier - it is not even remotely a one-sentence redesign of the entire combat system of the game.

And I think you knew that before you posted.

[DonDuckie]

Even at tier 10 you die when you sustain enough damage, and if you weren't CdG'd or critted to death with an artifact, then you come back after 24 hours.

The ability starts with "if you are killed", and ends with "you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact."
So if a rules lawyer really wants to make that argument, he has the means in the wording.

But I'm not sure that's the intention of the ability, as tier 10 would only be for the final artifact wielding BBEG fight. I could be wrong.

[Ravingdork]

You're vilifying me because a rule isn't at all clear, DM_Blake?

[DM_Blake]

No, if I'm vilifying you at all, it's because I've seen hundreds of your posts and realize that you're a smart guy who is fully capable of easily understanding rules but you also like to ham it up from time to time and propose weird munchkiny interpretations of rules for your own amusement, or to spark a debate, or maybe to call attention to possible loopholes.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are quite clear on what that last sentence means, so I'm pretty sure that being a provocateur is what you're doing here.

[Ravingdork]

Inevitably, it is always because I don't know and genuinely want to know, or...

DM_Blake wrote:

...or maybe to call attention to possible loopholes.

This.

[Aureate]

I read it as you literally are unkillable. (short of artifact intervention)

9th "if you are killed then ..."
10th "you can be killed only by ..."

[Ravingdork]

See? It's not just me. It is clearly unclear.

Sadly, I am seeing a LOT of this kind of poor, ambiguous writing in Mythic Adventures. I could post ten similar questions a day for at least a week!

[Komoda]

Aureate makes a good point...

[DonDuckie]

Aureate wrote:

I read it as you literally are unkillable. (short of artifact intervention)

9th "if you are killed then ..."
10th "you can be killed only by ..."

yes, but if that is correct, then "This ability doesn’t apply if you’re killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction." Meaning even at tier 10 you stay dead if killed by CdG or crit by mythic(or greater) wielding an artifact or anyone wielding an artifact that can bypass DR/Epic.

That's hardly true immortality. Plenty of artifact's have +6 or higher combined enhancement and special abilities. And a commoner can kill you with it(how he got it is another story)

[Aureate]

Granted, I strongly doubt that is the intent, but I don't have Mythic Adventures and thus no basis for power of what a 10th tier power should be capable of.

[DonDuckie]

Komoda wrote:

Aureate makes a good point...

I agree :)

[LazarX]

Ravingdork wrote:

Immortal (Su): At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren’t treated as if you had rested, and don’t regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn’t apply if you’re killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.

Does the note about being 10th tier mean you no longer can be killed by anything at all? Like, you don't even take hit point damage or suffer from death effects anymore? Or does it mean that you still die, but ALWAYS come back short of being killed by an artifact?

Do you lose the ability to read what you quote? (If you were some subspecies of goblin, that would make sense :) Let me bold something for you that's the answer to your question. When that bolded condition is satisfied as it says.... THE ABILITY DOES NOT APPLY.

[Skeld]

DonDuckie wrote:

That's hardly true immortality.

Purposefully so, no doubt. Nothing in the game is truly immortal. Even the gods can be killed (example: Aroden).

-Skeld

[DonDuckie]

Skeld wrote:

DonDuckie wrote:

That's hardly true immortality.

Purposefully so, no doubt. Nothing in the game is truly immortal. Even the gods can be killed (example: Aroden).

-Skeld

Yeah, it was in answer to the term "literally are unkillable."

Sidetrack: if you can't die permanently except from artifacts - can you gain XP for fighting non-DR/Epic overcoming artifact wielding enemies? The risk is greatly limited.

[Artanthos]

Skeld wrote:

Nothing in the game is truly immortal.

Except the Tarrasque.

[DM_Blake]

I knew it was only a matter of time before I got mentioned in this thread.

Now, imagine me with 10 Mythic tiers...

[Bugromkiller]

I think it is you don't die at all when you are in negative hp nless it is from a coup de grace or critical hit withn artefact. If it is you only stop respawning when you die by a crit or coup de grace, you only have a relatively small window in which you can't be killed. If the finishing blow is not a crit then the ennemy will need to wait 24 hours to try to kill you again.

If you continue to stay alive until a crit is scored on you, it will eventually happens, the opponent must not hope for a lucky roll at the correct moment.

Not dying is in a way weaker than respawning against some ennemies.

[Artanthos]

DM_Blake wrote:

I knew it was only a matter of time before I got mentioned in this thread.

Now, imagine me with 10 Mythic tiers...

Using Mythic rules would make the Tarrasque killable......

[Issac Daneil]

SO, is this to say the character becomes ETERNAL, as well? As in, no death by age. Cause wording looks like it's only preventing violent death, using phrasing like 'being killed', rather then, 'you only die if'....

[Issac Daneil]

Nevermind, just saw Longevity...

[Alleran]

Artanthos wrote:

Skeld wrote:

Nothing in the game is truly immortal.

Except the Tarrasque.

Arguable, to some.

"If a spawn fails a save against an effect that would kill it instantly, it rises from death 3 rounds later with 1 hit point if no further damage is dealt to its remains."

During the three-round wait, hit it with Animate Dead and it'll be turned into a skeleton or zombie without Regeneration (since the application of Skeleton or Zombie means it has no CON score, and you're not suppressing it so much as removing it from the creature entirely). Once it's gone, you merely need to kill the undead Tarrasque (because it'll be a dead skeleton/zombie Tarrasque, not a dead Tarrasque).

DonDuckie wrote:

Sidetrack: if you can't die permanently except from artifacts - can you gain XP for fighting non-DR/Epic overcoming artifact wielding enemies? The risk is greatly limited.

I don't think the game says anything about it. Were it to come up at my table, I would certainly say that you get reduced experience depending on the situation, but that's a table variation rather than pure RAW.

Not to mention that 10th tier mythic means, thinking about it, that no spell in the game can kill you. A spellcaster cannot threaten you with permanent death unless they're packing an artifact. They could still get you with any number of "Fate Worse Than Death" conclusions. At high-tier mythic, the game is breaking down anyway, so it would become more about story and whether you could be stopped, not killed.

Issac Daneil wrote:

SO, is this to say the character becomes ETERNAL, as well? As in, no death by age. Cause wording looks like it's only preventing violent death, using phrasing like 'being killed', rather then, 'you only die if'....

Technically? You'd die of old age and then come back 24 hours later, because old age doesn't meet the criteria. And probably die again of old age. And then come back. Again.

To the original topic of the Immortal ability, I'd read it as at 9th tier you come back unless killed by either a mythic creature's critical hit/CDG or a +6 or greater weapon from a non-mythic creature. At 10th tier, this upgrades so you come back unless killed by a critical hit or CDG from an artifact (but whoever has the artifact doesn't need to be mythic).

I can, however, certainly see how somebody could read it as that you don't die at all unless an artifact is used to crit/CDG you at the right moment. It's vague.

Curiously, given that the 10th tier upgrade to Immortal is part of the ability and not an ability in and of itself, if you hit 9th tier and take or have Mythic Paragon, you'd get the 10th tier version of the ability.

There's also got to be something out there that would give immunity to critical hits. The easiest is probably the Ooze type or the Elemental subtype. Once that's in play, you aren't subject to critical hits. Which means that nothing will stop you from coming back.

[brad2411]

I am reading it that you can't be killed in anyway but artifacts. Which brought up a cool idea of a mythic character that is imprisoned because it is brought to like -50HP. Held by magic weapons in his body.