If you cast Sanctuary on a summoned Monster (that is legal to cast it on) does it go back to the box, or does it stay on top of the location deck as the Sanctuary card says?
I have posed this question elsewhere with varying answers.
The monster goes on top of the location deck.
All the best.
Great Uncle LROG
Posting my reply from the other thread here:
In this case, I think the summoned monster goes on top of the location deck.
From page 12 of the rulebook:
Sometimes you will be told to summon a card and encounter it, or
to add a card to a deck. When this happens, retrieve the card from
the box. If you need to summon or add a number of cards and there
aren’t enough copies of that card in the box, the current player
decides how to distribute the cards that are there; ignore the rest.
After encountering a summoned card, return it to the box unless
you’re instructed otherwise.
When you play Sanctuary to evade the monster, you're instructed to put it on top of the location deck, so per the rule above, you should do as your instructed. Also, the golden rule on page 2 makes card text trump any text in the rulebook, so even if the rulebook did support you putting the card back in the box, the card text from Sanctuary should override it.
This could make an interesting situation for closing a location.
Let's say someone encounters a skeleton horde and Len is at an open location and has Sanctuary available. He uses sanctuary to evade and the Ancient Skeleton goes to the top of the location deck. Next turn, some charatcer that is good at combat or undead, let's say Kyra, goes to that location and encounters the skeleton again and defeats it, then the location can be closed. I think sanctuary could have it's uses after all.
I don't think that would work, J Scot.
Copying (and slightly modifying) my response from a BGG thread about this exact same issue:
The relevant rule is from pg 12 of the rulebook:
If the summoned card is a villain or henchman, defeating it does not allow you to close a location or win the scenario—ignore any such text on those cards.
The rulebook doesn't mention anything about the summoned monster losing it's "summoned status" when it gets added to a location deck, so I would argue that you would still continue ignoring any of its text that would allow you to close the location.
Basically, I think the gist of the rule is that the default Villain and Henchmen for a scenario are the only ones that matter for the purposes of closing locations and winning the scenario. Any summoned Villains/Henchmen will not change those conditions; they just get treated as if they were regular non-Henchmen / non-Villain monsters.
I don't think that would work, J Scot.
Copying (and slightly modifying) my response from a BGG thread about this exact same issue:
The relevant rule is from pg 12 of the rulebook:
If the summoned card is a villain or henchman, defeating it does not allow you to close a location or win the scenario—ignore any such text on those cards.The rulebook doesn't mention anything about the summoned monster losing it's "summoned status" when it gets added to a location deck, so I would argue that you would still continue ignoring any of its text that would allow you to close the location.
Basically, I think the gist of the rule is that the default Villain and Henchmen for a scenario are the only ones that matter for the purposes of closing locations and winning the scenario. Any summoned Villains/Henchmen will not change those conditions; they just get treated as if they were regular non-Henchmen / non-Villain monsters.
I disagree, Ninja. I don;t think it would keep it's summoned condition at all, that's why it's being put into the location deck. I don;t have access to the rulebook/pdf or the card in hand but I'd say it works as I describe.
By the logic you show then it could simply be evaded a second time without Sanctuary to make it go away, because it would still be considered "summoned". What if that deck got shuffled some how and the henchmen was Ancient Skeletons to begin with? How would you know which henchman was the summoned one?
I disagree, Ninja. I don;t think it would keep it's summoned condition at all, that's why it's being put into the location deck. I don;t have access to the rulebook/pdf or the card in hand but I'd say it works as I describe.
Here's the relevant passage from page 12 of the rulebook:
Sometimes you will be told to summon a card and encounter it, or to add a card to a deck. When this happens, retrieve the card from the box. If you need to summon or add a number of cards and there aren’t enough copies of that card in the box, the current player decides how to distribute the cards that are there; ignore the rest. After encountering a summoned card, return it to the box unless you’re instructed otherwise. If the summoned card is a villain or henchman, defeating it does not allow you to close a location or win the scenario—ignore any such text on those cards.
Nothing in that paragraph implies that a summoned card is no longer considered summoned when it gets added to a location deck.
Basically, the way I read the last sentence of the paragraph is that only the original types of Henchmen and the Villain of the scenario are what will allow you to close locations. They're what *define* the scenario (along with locations and scenario effects), and to me, it seems like this rule is preventing summoned or added Henchmen / Villains from changing that.
By the logic you show then it could simply be evaded a second time without Sanctuary to make it go away, because it would still be considered "summoned". [
I see no problem with this. Basically, I imagine Sanctuary is like putting a "pause button" on the summoned monster. It prevents him from attacking, but the magic holds him in place at the location. The next time he's encountered, the effect of Sanctuary has worn off, and he's still treated as a "Summoned monster"... So if he's evaded, he just gets un-summoned, back to the box as normal. If he's undefeated, you take damage, and he gets un-summoned back to the box as normal. If he's defeated, he goes back to the box as normal.
What if that deck got shuffled some how and the henchmen was Ancient Skeletons to begin with? How would you know which henchman was the summoned one?
In that rare situation, I see a few reasonable options that wouldn't require you to somehow track which Ancient Skeleton is which.
Option 1: Assume the first Ancient Skeleton encountered is always the summoned one. So when you encounter/defeat the first one, you do not get to attempt to close the location.
Option 2: Assume the second Ancient Skeleton encountered is the summoned one. So if you fail to close the location after defeating the first, the second one won't allow you to attempt to close when you defeat it.
Option 3: Make no distinction between the summoned one and the original one. In other words, assume that both Ancient Skeletons allow you to attempt to close after defeating. In other words, assume that the scenario allows you to close a location whenever you encounter and defeat *any* Ancient Skeleton from a location deck, whether it was originally in that deck or not.
All of them seem like reasonable options to me. Personally, I like option 1. The other two options might make me feel like I received an early/extra attempt to close a location that I wasn't supposed to receive. Option 1 feels like I'm not "cheating" the system somehow.
It has to stay a Summoned creature. Imagine what would happen if you used Sanctuary on the Sandpoint Devil and it became part of the deck. Now you have two Villains you have to hunt down and kill to finish the adventure. One of which is the toughest one in the game.
TCliff, that is almost exactly my point.
If a summoned henchman or villian is evaded and put on the top of the deck (Fatigue I think does it from the first adventure deck as well) that can make some interesting situations, including increasing the chances to close locations with my interpretations of the rules.
I would like an official answer on this if we can get one. I think this is one of those situations that could add dimension to the game but has such a dramatic effect that something official will prevent some tension at the table.
I'm deeply uneasy about any situation in which cards need to "remember" what they were - summoned monsters or deck monsters.
There are also going to be problems if you happen to have one henchman in the location deck, then summon - and shuffle in - another henchman of the same type. Which one allows you to attempt to close the location when it is defeated? Are you expected to be able to remember that one was summoned (so no closing) and one was not? Should you treat them both as normal henchmen - thereby doubling the chances of encountering one, allowing the location to be closed more easily (or a second attempt made if the first closing was unsuccessful and the second henchman is encountered later)?
Summon it, evade it, send it back to the box afterwards. Occam's razor is the best tool that games designers can wield IMO.
I think that if a different Villain or Henchman got mixed in the location deck due to the Sanctuary spell, then defeating them probably will not allow a player to close the location or attempt it.
My reasoning is that the specific Villain and Henchman listed on the scenario card are the requirements that must be used to complete a scenario. I would think that an introduced Villain like the Sandpoint Devil would not count, since it's not on the scenario card. But it is a Villain so I could see how that would complicate other rules.
Now if another Henchmen of the same type as the scenario card were evaded and put in the location deck, then i would think they would be able to meet the requirements of the scenario card, and if defeated, you could attempt close the location.
Major speculation on my part, but it's a really interesting question.
So, I'm not 100% sure of this statement (as I do not have my rulebook with me) but I believe to win a scenario you need to defeat all the villians present. If that is accurate, then adding the sandpoint devil will make things harded, as you would have to defeat it and the regular villain(s) before it is considered completed.
As for the additional henchmen being added I think having an extra chance at closing a location wouldn't break the game. I think this is an interesting situation. We've already mentioned this would be rare but looking at the possible card collections I see 4 cards so far that may make this possible.
Both Skeleton Horde and Goblin Raid summon Henchmen across a large area. Several locations summon additional Henchmen, though usually as a closing condition so I don't see this being much of an issue. So the chance to get an additional henchman is possible.
Both Sanctuary and Fatigue (I think, it's in Adventure Deck 1) evade a monster and put it on the top of the deck. So, someone who is at an open location when Skeleton Horde or Goblin Raid hit and they have no offensive chance but have either Sanctuary or Fatigue. In order not to get smacked they evade.
I don't think either of these chances are that unlikely. I really would like an official answer on this, but I also really like the debate. Thanks to everyone.
So, I'm not 100% sure of this statement (as I do not have my rulebook with me) but I believe to win a scenario you need to defeat all the villians present.
The rulebook says nothing about defeating all Villains in a scenario to win.
Here's the text from the rulebook:
Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations:
When a player encounters the villain, each player at any other location may immediately attempt to fulfill the “When Closing” requirement for his location. If any player at a location succeeds, his location is temporarily closed and the villain cannot escape there this turn (see Check to See Whether the Villain Escapes, below). Temporarily closing a location does not trigger any of the other effects of closing a location; the location opens again immediately after the encounter. Players may attempts to close locations in any order they wish.Encounter the Villain:
The character who encounters the villain must attempt a check to defeat it. This check works exactly as it does with other banes, but be careful to look for any special rules listed on the villain card or the scenario card.If You Defeat the Villain, Close the Villain’s Location:
You do not need to fulfill the “When Closing” requirement. Examine the location deck; if there are no additional villains in it, banish all of the cards and flip the location card over. The location is permanently closed, and the location’s “When Permanently Closed” effect is triggered. If there are villains remaining in the deck, banish everything except the remaining villains and shuffle the deck if needed; the location is not permanently closed, but it is temporarily closed, and the defeated villain cannot escape to it.Check to See Whether the Villain Escapes:
If any locations are not closed, the villain escapes. If you defeated the villain, count the number of open locations, subtract 1, and retrieve that number of random blessings from the box. Shuffle the villain in with those blessings, then deal 1 card to each open location and shuffle those location decks. If you did not defeat the villain, do the same thing, but retrieve the blessings from the blessings deck instead of from the box. (Note that if you did not defeat the villain, there is always at least one open location: the one in which it was just encountered.)If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win!:
See After the Scenario below.
Those rules, as written, would imply that even if a scenario had *two* default villains, you would only need to corner and defeat *one* of them to win. They even allude to the possibility of there being multiple villains in the section "Close the Villain’s Location" above, but the win condition is based on only preventing one villain from escaping.
I'm strongly of the opinion though, that any Villains/Henchmen that get summoned and added to a location deck (by Sanctuary or Fatigue) still don't "count" for the purposes of closing locations or wining the scenario. It just seems silly that they would re-define the objectives of the scenario. "Hey guys, we came here to kill Jubrayl but we killed this summoned Ripnugget guy instead. Good job. Mission complete."
Thanks for the look up Ninja, I knew it mentioned multiple Villains, but wasn;t sure what it said or where.
I do not know what I think about the multiple villains, that just kind of came to mind late last night, but in terms of the henchmen I still don;t think it changes the objective, you still need to defeat the villain to complete the scenario.
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Yeah... I still think you have to beat all the villains to actually win a scenario. The wording of that section is misleading. I think the intent was that this part:
"If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win!" was supposed to say "If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, and He Was the Only Villain, You Win!"
Mike or Vic, can you confirm this? This is kinda a big one, in my opinion.
If you cast Sanctuary on a summoned Monster (that is legal to cast it on) does it go back to the box, or does it stay on top of the location deck as the Sanctuary card says?I have posed this question elsewhere with varying answers.
I think the question is actually whether or not you can EVADE a monster that you are forced to ENCOUNTER.
For instance, Black Fang's Dungeon specifies "summon and encounter." Evade should not, IMHO, be an option at that point.
Interesting point. That would solve this whole issue as well. If you can't evade it, then it can't be added. Though I kind of hope the answer is no. I like the images we've been working with here and I hope they are partly true.
For reference, here's the FAQ entry.
That's what I understood to be the case generally. The suggestion that playing Sanctuary to evade changes the rules and puts the summoned monster on top of that location deck would be, well, odd IMO.
That's what I understood to be the case generally. The suggestion that playing Sanctuary to evade changes the rules and puts the summoned monster on top of that location deck would be, well, odd IMO.
Actually playing Sanctuary doesn't change the rules at all (if you want to look at it as changing the rules, then that's exactly what it does) because the rules are clear that if a card and the rules contridict each other then the card is to be considered correct.
The problem that we are trying to figure out is how this would affect the game in terms of adding another Henchman or Villain into the mix.
Actually playing Sanctuary doesn't change the rules at all (if you want to look at it as changing the rules, then that's exactly what it does) because the rules are clear that if a card and the rules contridict each other then the card is to be considered correct.
Yep, I'm starting to repeat myself at this point, but the two relevant rules for why Sanctuary would put the summoned creature on top of the location deck instead of the box are these:
Pg 12: After encountering a summoned card, return it to the box unless you’re instructed otherwise.
Pg 2: If a card and this rulebook are ever in conflict, the card should be considered correct.
You have to beat both Villains, otherwise why have the section about banishing the cards and if you find another Villain, it becomes the location deck. Why bother with that if you have already won by beating 1 Villain.
What if the two villains are not in the same location? Do you search all locations first? Do you have to remember that there is a second villian that you have to defeat (not that hard to do, but I figured I'd play devil's advocate)?
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You have to beat both Villains, otherwise why have the section about banishing the cards and if you find another Villain, it becomes the location deck. Why bother with that if you have already won by beating 1 Villain.What if the two villains are not in the same location? Do you search all locations first? Do you have to remember that there is a second villian that you have to defeat (not that hard to do, but I figured I'd play devil's advocate)?
Remember that there are two, I would say. It should say on the Scenario card if there are multiples, otherwise you wouldn't know to put two villains in in the first place.
I hope we can get an answer from a developer.
I am inclined to follow the Summoned rules, regardless of the "Golden Rule" and once a Summoned monster is evaded using Sanctuary then it goes back to the box.
Since there are no rules that were quoted from the rulebook that says how to deal with 2 of the same Henchmen in the same location deck I would be inclined to believe that it is not supposed to happen.
Unless there is a rule that I missed of course! :)
I think it was just a poor word choice on the Sanctuary card. They wanted to distinguish it from other evades by telling you to place the encounter back on top of the location deck, but they didn't consider how the wording would interact with that barrier. If I evade a summoned creature using Sanctuary, it's still going back in the box.
It gets put on top of the deck, then you take it right off and put it back in the box. All rules followed, but those who want to save time can skip the first step :)
Russ, I don't see why it would work this way. The rules specifically state that there may be cases when a summoned creature would not be put back in the box and I think Sanctuary, Enfeeble (I checked the name of the card when I got home), and even Mereseil's evade power at a certain point are such cases.
Also, in another thread we may have gotten an answer about does the card "remember" if it is summoned. According to Mike, the answer is no. Check out the thread (sorry I can't properly link it, I'm not good with the tech). http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q68c?Giant-Hermit-Crab
I truly do think that in the case present where a summoned Henchman or Villain is evaded using one of these cards, then it gets returned to the top of the deck and functions like a normal card of it's type. A henchman will allow you to attempt to close the location.
The only question I still have is with the addition of a second villain. The rules work for having two villains in the same locations but what about two villains in multiple locations?
Either way at this point, as others have said, I think we may need an official ruling from Vic or Mike.
Some interesting brain-teasers have come up here!
Here's what I know...
1) The Golden Rule says that cards trump the rule book.
2) Mike is consistent in saying (quite often) that cards have no 'memory'.
3) The rulebook has a sentence saying that if the villain cannot escape you win.
My take on all this, based on the rules as written, is as follows:
The Sanctuary card's wording WOULD put the evaded card on top of the location deck. From that point onwards it is no longer considered to be a summoned card.
If it was a henchman, then later encountering and defeating it WOULD give you the chance to close the location. UNLESS there is an errata issued at some point that you have to defeat a henchman listed on the scenario card to be able to close the location.
In this circumstance, though, you might still be able to get new opportunities to close the location if you, for example, had a scenario where Ancient Skeletons were the official henchmen and then you summoned/evaded a new one.
As for multiple villains... that sentence in the book about 'If The Villain Has Nowhere to Escape to, You Win' seems, to me, to either be a bit off-hand or would be clarified by any scenario card which has multiple villains (e.g. it might say something like 'When the first villain is defeated keep it on display. When both Bob and Frank (the two villains) are defeated You Win'
However, my gut feel is that this might be updated at some point with an Errata to change this bit to "If you have defeated all of the Villains listed on the Scenario card, You Win".
And finally. If you encounter the Sandpoint Devil the best advice is DO NOT USE SANCTUARY!!! Either take the hit yourself or evade him some other way.
H4ppy, thanks for summing that up. The potential errata would help sort that issue out, in my mind at least.
As for using it on the Sandpoint Devil, I don't think I would suggest doing it, but I have a friend who I just introduced to the game that occasionally likes to add a little chaos to anything he's involved in. I can see him doing it.
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I have to agree that by the rules, Sanctuary puts the card on top of the location deck, even if it was a summoned critter. The card no longer remembers that it was summoned after that. If the summon happens to be a henchman, this could allow you to close that location sooner, since you just have to beat it after finding it in exploration to get a shot at closing the location. That's the RAW.
But I'm not sure if that's what the game developers intended, so I wouldn't be surprised to see an errata on this. And personally, I think I'd probably play by what I think is probably the RAI, which is that summoned critters go back in the box, not the location deck, when evaded.
The intent is that summoned cards never go anywhere but back in the box. Will fix Sanctuary via FAQ later.
Thanks for the post Vic, it is very appreciated!
Thanks for the clarification, Vic!
Thanks Vic. I would also add Enfeeble and Maesiel's Acrobat power to the FAQ,
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Ok, so, because of the "cards trump rules" thing, we have to fix the "evade a summoned monster in the Sanctuary" problem by rewording Sanctuary. However, we really want to avoid saying "put that monster on top of the location deck, unless it was summoned, in which case you need to banish it", because adding all those words to cover an edge case just makes it seem more confusing than it oughta be. Mike wants to say "put that monster on top of the deck it came from," but I'm not a fan of that, partly because if it's summoned, it really should be shuffled in, but partly because I think it might actually *increase* the number of people who ask "but what should I do if it was summoned?"
So I'm looking for a suggestion on wording here. It needs to be concise, clear, and complete.
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Will summoned creatures ever NOT get banished when you're done with them? Maybe the rule change could be in the rulebook to say that summoned creatures always get shuffled back where they came from, even if a card says otherwise. It messes with the golden rule by stating an explicit exception, but it might be easier to word that way to clarify it for everyone.
Due to the 'can not' part of the golden rule, simply rewording the rules to 'Summoned monsters can never be returned anywhere other than the box after encountering them'.
Rulebook:
After Summoned Monsters are encountered or evaded they cannot remain in play and must be banished.
Sanctuary:-
...Location Deck, unless it was summoned, then banish it.
or
...Location Deck, if summoned, banish it.
Thats 4 words 2 x , 4 x " " and 1 x .
I don't think the universal banishment of summoned creatures is going to work. Reading between the lines of the current rulebook, I guess that some Banes (possibly locations too) are going to tell you to summon **and then keep** monsters if you don't defeat them.
A universal rule doesn't allow this (which would be bad) so I think the Evade (and similar) cards need to be tweaked instead.
Perhaps...
After encountering a summoned card, return it to the box unless you’re instructed otherwise by the card that summoned it. Boons can never cause summoned cards to remain in play.
...or...
After encountering a summoned card, return it to the box unless you’re instructed otherwise by the card that summoned it. Boons can not affect where summoned cards are placed after they are encountered.
?
"After encountering a summoned card, return it to the box. This rule supersedes any card text that would seem to indicate otherwise."
Original Sanctuary: "Discard this card to choose a character at your location to evade a monster; put that monster on top of the location deck."
Proposed Revision: "Discard this card to choose a character at your location to evade a monster; put that monster on top of its location deck if it was not summoned."
If you want to be really terse: "Discard this card to choose a character at your location to evade a monster; put that monster on top of its location deck if not summoned."
Personally I think the second one sounds a bit awkward, but it saves two words if space is an issue.
No suggested revision to the rulebook.