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Hello,
Recently I have been playing with a new DM who recently was my player. While I enjoy his games his recent ideas on how to get rid of "gold inflation" and force players into investing money for lodging , item repair and other things.
Here is a breakdown of what he intends to do:
Taxation based on equipment
Equipment taxation based on lvl x equipment cost - lvl x 100gp per month
Lodging taxation
poor 100gp/month (diseases, discomfort, thieves)
average 300gp/month (thieves)
Extra costs
medicine for diseases during winter for low constitution characters
thieves on all levels
He calculated that when we complete our first module I will have to pay 1312 gp for getting trough winter. Mind you I am a monk with a sword and equpment worth 30gp.
I don't know how will it turn out but I don't want to go back to DMing and yet I am very anxious about his draconian methods of resolving things. Can you give me some ideas how should I confront him if things went too far or became unpleasant? Any arguments I could use or less ruthless methods?
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The problem here is that even though I have weapon crafting and I reduce cost of repairing and maintaining my weapons by 25% and have little to no equipment compared to my party members. We will be paying amazingly high sums for staying in towns during winter.
This system counts maintaining trail rations, clothes and materials used for repairing clothes, mirrors. Basicly imagine doing nothing and having replace all your equipment every month for the market price times your level.
This will be used to rise difficulty level and introduce new roleplaying elements.
It's fine to force characters to pay a lifestyle charge, there are costs in the CRB. To go beyond that by say 25% during winter in a setting where winter months are particularly harsh seems reasonable. To go beyond that seems counter to what the game intends.
Maybe point out to the DM that a)part of what's cool about Pathfinder/D&D is getting cool treasure and b)if the adventures he runs are giving what he feels is too much reward, he can always change them. There's no reason for a DM to create a complex system like this when he can just give less treasure.
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Having a blanket fee for food, etc. to some extent makes sense and reduces time/need for players and GM to keep track of those things (if they are relevant in the story, which they may not always be).
I don't really get some of the particulars like the "thief tax" which just seems like a reason to take away some of your gold. Stuff like that leads to arguments like, "Well, then I cast alarm on my coin pouch so the thieves can't take my money."
"Well, you can't." Or "Well, they dispel the spell." "Then can I make a Perception check to hear them casting dispel magic?" "Uh.... no. It's silenced." "If these guys are 6th level wizards, plus high enough level rogue to Stealth past me, what are they doing cutting purses?" And so on.
So there's a core concept here that's doable, but I think it's a little too costly and the reasoning for some of it is very poor and actually should be stuff that should either be played out or left alone.
How does being higher level equate to higher taxes? Does the taxman have a level-o-meter? Do merchants automatically charge you more for being high level?
Remind your GM that the average working guy is making 7-8gp a week and isn't dirt poor. Pathfinder has a lousy economic system, but at least it mostly works for the common people.
If he has a problem with chests full of gold, move to a silver standard (where 1sp becomes the value of 1gp in all the books) and make 250sp = 1 pound (fun fact, a medieval pound of silver was 240 silver pennies, and in roman times it was even more silver coins!). Gold was valued at 10-20x the value of silver, so one pound of gold coins could be 2500-5000 silver pennies worth (depending).
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As a GM, I don't see a problem with having players pay for living expenses or taxes as long as the amounts are reasonable. What your GM is suggesting is unreasonable unless the NPCs in power are trying to oppress the people (and perhaps they are)...
The GameMastery section of the Core Rule Book suggests the following:
Poor (3 gp/month): The PC lives in common rooms of taverns, with his parents, or in some other communal situation—this is the lifestyle of most untrained laborers and commoners. He need not track purchases of meals or taxes that cost 1 sp or less.
Average (10 gp/month): The PC lives in his own apartment, small house, or similar location—this is the lifestyle of most trained or skilled experts or warriors. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 1 gp or less from his home in 1d10 minutes, and need not track purchases of common meals or taxes that cost 1 gp or less.
Wealthy (100 gp/month): The PC has a sizable home or a nice suite of rooms in a fine inn. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 5 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes, and need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 10 gp.
Extravagant (1,000 gp/month): The PC lives in a mansion, castle, or other extravagant home—he might even own the building in question. This is the lifestyle of most aristocrats. He can secure any nonmagical item worth 25 gp or less from his belongings in his home in 1d10 minutes. He need only track purchases of meals or taxes in excess of 100 gp.
This means that your GM is using costs at 3000% higher than those suggested by the book.
The equipment tax definitely just a method for the GM to take money from the players...and it's implementation is just silly. Taxation should be based on use of land and the sale of goods. The GM would be better off lessening the amount of goodies found during the adventure.
I'm trying to figure out where this "gold inflation" idea comes from. If he's doing treasure distribution correctly it should not be such an issue to require such measures. If it's a matter of flavor he needs not do more than make it a narrative thing.
sounds like your DM is creating taxes for no reason but to remove wealth he or she deems excessive.
appearantly, thievery is a very lucrative profession
become bandits and all your issues will be solved
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I don't know if I said it correctly. The taxation isn't done by a goverment official that you can rob to get back your money or others valuables but the cost of maintaining your equipment.
For example if your total equipment gold value is 100 gold you will multiply this number by your lvl lets say lvl 3. Each month you will have to pay 300 gold on repairs and replacement of your equipment or it becomes broken or is depleted.
Unless your idea was that I should just rob people out of their new equipment than yes.
Have the party wizard cast rope trick and sleep there every night. The same wizard can keep every pc weapons sharp with mending. Tell him your char is not paying the thief tax.
By the time your third level your higher level than most thieves in anything short or a metropolis.
Really though talk to your dm most of the problems the tax is aleviating pc can bypass lvl 3. It lookssl mostly like a metagame concept ro remove pc from wealth.
This isn't to say I don't think pc shouldnt have living expenses but the ones in the book are sufficient and cost amounts that fall within the games existing economy.
I don't know if I said it correctly. The taxation isn't done by a goverment official that you can rob to get back your money or others valuables but the cost of maintaining your equipment.
For example if your total equipment gold value is 100 gold you will multiply this number by your lvl lets say lvl 3. Each month you will have to pay 300 gold on repairs and replacement of your equipment or it becomes broken or is depleted.
Unless your idea was that I should just rob people out of their new equipment than yes.
rob people of equipment, tools, materials and the like
or don't play with this powermad cookie bear who seeks to stymie his or her players and find a new group.
I don't know if I said it correctly. The taxation isn't done by a goverment official that you can rob to get back your money or others valuables but the cost of maintaining your equipment.
For example if your total equipment gold value is 100 gold you will multiply this number by your lvl lets say lvl 3. Each month you will have to pay 300 gold on repairs and replacement of your equipment or it becomes broken or is depleted.
Unless your idea was that I should just rob people out of their new equipment than yes.
Uhh hold on so if I'm a lvl 10 character with 60 thousand gold ( approximately what a lvl 10 char is expected to earm from his adventures) I'd be expected to fork out 180 thousand gold a month to maintain it? That is insane how much money does your guy make?
Ask the dm how a grocery store makes 3x its total value every month to just exist.
More to th point it's incredibly silly and unrealistic. Armies wouldn't bother with weapons, knowing fll well the upkeep of say, forty long spears, for a group of pikemen would be absolutely ludicrous.
What is wrong with paying Food & Lodging (aka Monthly Cost of Living)?
What is wrong with paying Food & Lodging (aka Monthly Cost of Living)?
no problem with that
just a problem with the massive costs proposed in the OP
So... what you're saying is the upkeep of your equipment cost more than if you just replaced it all every month? Dafuq? And why does level make a difference, unless you just get progressively worse at taking care of your equipment as you level up, but then that is still ridiculous.
The GM wants to run a low wealth game... why doesnt he just run a low wealth game? Why would he require literally insane amounts of money to be paid, just adjust how much wealth you give out. I've played in and run games where the pcs barely have 2 coppers to rub together. What is the point of non-sense like this? It seems really adversarial to just apply blanket costs that are impossibly high, and would completely break the ability of anyone but an adventurer rolling in dungeon treasure to support, clothe, feed, and heal themselves.
A level 1 fighter town guard cant possibly pay 100gp per month in lodging. Its simply not possible, and that is for poor accomodations? POOR are you kidding me?
Honestly, someone who does something like this either has really skewed views about the game, is a sadist and wants to justify it, or has had some really bad experiences and is overreacting. Either way it doesnt sound like a game I would want to participate in.
Talk to him about simply divorcing wealth and power in the game. In particular, make it not possible to buy/sell magic items, or to craft them simply with money and the feat. He can either just include the items and such that he wants, or he can use a system to replace the power characters get from magic items as the level up, or he can adjust to reduced power level the players have without them. Then use as much or as little money as he wants, because you cant buy a magic item, and you cant sell it if you find it. Everyone can be walking around with a couple silver or less and just use the rules in the book for lodging and such.
Wait, so it costs 154 gp per month to be homeless or what is that in the bottom right of the sheet?
That's what it sounds like. And that's the homeless cost for just being an adventuring monk. I'd love to see the costs for a magus, seeing they'd have to maintain their armor, weapon(s), spellbook, component pouch, and clothing minimum. Not to mention nonperishable items cost half their purchase value in "maintenance". (5sp to maintain 10lbs of rope. Per month. Minimum.)
Looks like it's time to storm the Bastille and break out everyone who couldn't afford the cost of breathing. I also imagine the popularity of Bachelor Snuff couldn't be higher.
Wow, all of this tax nonsense is absurd. There's an actual Cost of Living set of rules in the core rulebook. You should point your DM to it.
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According to my third edition of accountants and housewives if you use the "filthy rich" and "job creator" merits you can cut your taxes by 95% and wage a propaganda war on anyone that tries to raise them. Then you can use "cook the books" to incorporate yourself and then not pay any taxes because you took a loss for your corporation due to having to pay yourself. Your cleric can run "the long con" (i.e. start a poutrage church and sue anyone that suggests he shouldn't for impugning on his religious rights of hating other people), and the fighter can go into politics (especially good if he has no good ideas, but can bring up he is "strong on defense" and willing to "take the fight to the enemies!" use the rogue for marvicky cred).
Or just hit the GM in the head with the PATHFINDER CORE RULEBOOK and suggest you play pathfinder instead.
Also point out that anyone not paying as little taxes as yourself is not paying enough, lazy, and over using the system as a mooch and needs to work harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, extra XP if you do this while bankrupting your own companies more than once and with a straight face.
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OK, after a night-long sleep I looked at the spreadsheet once more. From that I think, there are three kind of taxes (black)
1. Equipment Maintance
2. Food and Lodging Expenses
3. Taxes
which all are summed in the green table
What it means. During downtime which will last 3 months of winter
The cost of maintace of mundane equipment is 150% of the market price because everything from trail rations and cows to wheatstones gets destroyed or is consumed in two months time or "gets damaged"
Weapons cost only 10% per month or 2% if you have a corresponding crafting skill and pass a check each month. I think that those warriors who have to pay 150gp per month for maintaining their full plate mail and large quantity of weapons (not to mention masterwork stuff) will see red.
Magic items maintance costs 10% but because my human subrace has a build in magic resistance my presence naturally damges magical gear over time rising the bar to 20%. Enchanting your gear or wearing a magical ring gets you from 100 to 200 gp tax for paying mages or priests to repair it every month
Now if you aren't a Rogue, Urban Ranger living in the city is not for you. Hell if you aren't one of the wilderness oriented classes living in the woods or in the mountains is also not for you. Classes who have no idea how to survive in the city (fighters, monks, wizards, sorcerers) have to pay a lot during winter or maybe every season.
Renting a simple house and eating like an average person costs 120gp/month.
Finally we have the tax collectors who I tought had the decency not to appear after, all the craftsmen, merchants and barkeeps robbed me blind during winter. I don't know what are the numbers for it but it is based on this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/taxation
To sum up, if my character gets to the second lvl (Falcons Hollow module) sells all the loot found there and keeps only his starting equipment and rents a descent house, after winter he will be 822gp poorer.
Can anyone in your group cast 'mending' or 'make whole'?
How can someone not know how to survive in a city because of their class? That makes no sense.... hes put alot of work into a system tha5 defies logic.
My best friend, our usual GM, tried the 'adventurer tax' once (government tax on any large windfall not accounted for on normal tax rolls).
He only tried it once. Let's just say I voiced my opinion on the matter in no uncertain terms.
OK, after a night-long sleep I looked at the spreadsheet once more. From that I think, there are three kind of taxes (black)
Papers and Paychecks anyone?
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This mid-game houseruling makes my character concept idea destined to doom. My monks backstory was based on the life featured in 'A Bride's Story' manga by Kaoru Mori. He was a 4th son of an extended middle class family with military traditions who was considered a underachiver and got educated by women instead of men and be wed as soon as possible. Instead, a tragedy occured and he became a sole male member of his family. His new task was to repair their masterwork wooden household from fire damage (~2000-3000gp), pay for dowry and wedding expenses (~100gp/person) for his eleven sisters, fraternal nieces and sisters-in-law before they become too old to marry.
I had a time limit of maximum 5 years to get the house repaired and marry my oldest relatives before they become fed up with the situation and decide to force the family to marrying them off and depleting scarce family resources. Cut this time limit by 2 years of travel that took me to get to the area where the adventure takes place where I could find job as a sellsword. Add an extra 1000gp for teleportation spells to get in time before the time limit expires.
I don't know what to do now. I don't want to become a criminal and rob people on the road like some common bandit.
My group consist of a knight, a rogue?, a wizard and me who is basicly a fencer in training.
OK, after a night-long sleep I looked at the spreadsheet once more. From that I think, there are three kind of taxes (black)
1. Equipment Maintance
2. Food and Lodging Expenses
3. Taxeswhich all are summed in the green table
What it means. During downtime which will last 3 months of winter
The cost of maintace of mundane equipment is 150% of the market price because everything from trail rations and cows to wheatstones gets destroyed or is consumed in two months time or "gets damaged"
Weapons cost only 10% per month or 2% if you have a corresponding crafting skill and pass a check each month. I think that those warriors who have to pay 150gp per month for maintaining their full plate mail and large quantity of weapons (not to mention masterwork stuff) will see red.
Magic items maintance costs 10% but because my human subrace has a build in magic resistance my presence naturally damges magical gear over time rising the bar to 20%. Enchanting your gear or wearing a magical ring gets you from 100 to 200 gp tax for paying mages or priests to repair it every month
Now if you aren't a Rogue, Urban Ranger living in the city is not for you. Hell if you aren't one of the wilderness oriented classes living in the woods or in the mountains is also not for you. Classes who have no idea how to survive in the city (fighters, monks, wizards, sorcerers) have to pay a lot during winter or maybe every season.
Renting a simple house and eating like an average person costs 120gp/month.
Finally we have the tax collectors who I tought had the decency not to appear after, all the craftsmen, merchants and barkeeps robbed me blind during winter. I don't know what are the numbers for it but it is based on this http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/taxation
To sum up, if my character gets to the second lvl (Falcons Hollow module) sells all the loot found there and keeps only his starting equipment and rents a descent house, after winter he will be 822gp poorer.
point him to the lifestyle rules that are both in the core rulebook and the gamemastery guide
your average person does not pay 120 GP a month. that is absurd
there is no mouseover thumbnail flag that says "i am a player character", hell if you wanted to thumbnail view everyone's personal information, stats, backstory and name, that is what an MMO is for.
How can someone not know how to survive in a city because of their class? That makes no sense.... hes put alot of work into a system tha5 defies logic.
is there a magic flag that says "i'm a rogue!" or "i'm a druid!" or "i'm a fighter!" if there is and you can simply thumbnail view a person's class by clicking them. you have ruined the tabletop experience.
My best friend, our usual GM, tried the 'adventurer tax' once (government tax on any large windfall not accounted for on normal tax rolls).
He only tried it once. Let's just say I voiced my opinion on the matter in no uncertain terms.
the Adventurer tax is a bad idea, the Adventurers had to murder dangerous monsters to get those funds, punishing them for killing a monster that could have wiped out their settlement, is not a good incentive for the people who preemptively saved you from being attacked by a dragon
the adventurers should be rewarded, not taxed. give them titles for their courageous slaughter of the evil intelligent beings who would have easily become your enemies, don't punish them for coming across a massive horde.
A lot of DMs don't like the high fantasy setting of Pathfinder, and get a thrill out of putting players through a grind.
A lot of DMs should be playing GURPS or some other game instead of Pathfinder, then.
Oh, it makes perfect sense to tax adventurers. There's a saying about death and taxes and all that, after all.
The problem comes from taxation without benefit (to the taxed). If me and my buddies take down the bad dragon and claim his horde, when the king decides we owe him 50% of the horde, well, we just killed a bad dragon (that he ostensibly could not). Maybe it's time for a new king? At the very least, adventurers will take their money and walk unless they're seriously committed to an area, and any tax collector is hard pressed to stop them.
Yes, there will be social repercussions of not paying taxes, but adventurers generally aren't integrated into the social fabric like a lot of wealthy folk. They have no businesses that rely on roads, city walls, town guards and the like. They're going to spend that money anyways (on magic item components at the very least), and people you can easily tax now have that money.
Regardless, in general, taxing money is a very modern notion. You taxed property (i.e. land), charged tolls on roads and on goods at ports and gates the like. Most nobles made their money on rents of the land they owned and taxed people in form of service (usually military service, but they would accept cash in lieu).
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I don't know what to do now.
Oh, thats easy, dont play in this game. Obnoxious DMs are obnoxious, even if you can get him to relent on this nonsense (which you should most assuredly not play without doing) the personality traits that led to him creating such a system will likely remain (unless you can arrange for therapy for the person). Run...run fast. Its hard to fathom how he arrived a the 'rules' he has, but they are just plain nonsense. And nonsense houserules dont make for a good game.
Oh, it makes perfect sense to tax adventurers. There's a saying about death and taxes and all that, after all.The problem comes from taxation without benefit (to the taxed). If me and my buddies take down the bad dragon and claim his horde, when the king decides we owe him 50% of the horde, well, we just killed a bad dragon (that he ostensibly could not). Maybe it's time for a new king? At the very least, adventurers will take their money and walk unless they're seriously committed to an area, and any tax collector is hard pressed to stop them.
Yes, there will be social repercussions of not paying taxes, but adventurers generally aren't integrated into the social fabric like a lot of wealthy folk. They have no businesses that rely on roads, city walls, town guards and the like. They're going to spend that money anyways (on magic item components at the very least), and people you can easily tax now have that money.
Regardless, in general, taxing money is a very modern notion. You taxed property (i.e. land), charged tolls on roads and on goods at ports and gates the like. Most nobles made their money on rents of the land they owned and taxed people in form of service (usually military service, but they would accept cash in lieu).
Actually by dint of having roads, inns, and a social structure from which Adventurers can purchase equipment, have a safe rest, and not be bothered every couple of miles by desperate starving bandits they are benefiting from the laws and structures put in place by the government.
However this is correct that txing commodities, tolls, and perhaps even a sales tax are all things that are easier to ultimately quantify and tax.
So I do think that if a GM went with this approach it would be more reasonable and ultimately more interesting to the game.
Consider this. The pc's come upon a road that is tolled by a small squad of bored guards. They have a few choices. 1. Pay the toll and be on their merry way. 2. Refuse to pay the toll, back off a half mile and go around (into the part where I start rolling on the encounter table). or 3. Refuse pay and try to force their way through automatically marking themselves as outlaws.
I don't see it as a tax on adventuring but an oportunity to totally negate inconvenience. And if they choose not to pay then adventure happens.
A lot of DMs don't like the high fantasy setting of Pathfinder, and get a thrill out of putting players through a grind.A lot of DMs should be playing GURPS or some other game instead of Pathfinder, then.
You're evidently unaware of the high fantasy GURPS Dungeon Fantasy supplements then....
GURPS does use a monthly Cost of Living which is related to your Wealth and Status. If you want to be a Baron and have the benefits that that suggests then you are expected to pay the associated living costs (including parties and other hospitality). It takes away the 'grind' of paying for board and lodging, drinks at the tavern and so on. In that respect is very similar to the Cost of Living suggested for Pathfinder.
However, the Cost of Living is based on a reasonable sum for the average income for that Wealth level. The amount is not tied to experience (there are no levels in GURPS) but to your lifestyle. A wealthy playboy lifestyle costs more than that of a frugal monk, no matter how experienced the relative characters.
I would certainly talk to the GM and suggest a more reasonable 'tax' which has been calculated using actual costs and a realistic reflection of what an average person would be buying.
As has been pointed out several times already, a Mending spell will do wonders for damaged equipment, Create Food and Drink and Prestidigitation can sort out rations and cleaning costs. In your GM's world, a low-level spell-caster could be a very valuable asset.
I don't see the point to all the extra taxation, as it's just introducing a ton of paperwork that could be avoided simply by (assuming his aim is to keep you all relatively poor) not giving out as much treasure to you in the first place. Or is this an inexperienced GM that thinks they have to do what the rulebooks say just because it's printed there in black and pale yellowing parchment?
*Unless* your GM is intending for your characters to rebel against the oppressive regime that is making prices for it's citizenry skyrocket and to go to war against the local thieves guild, in which case it sorta makes sense, albeit in a somewhat heavy-handed way.
If it's going to cost 1312gp for a monk to get through winter, I hate to think how the local peasantry copes.