I don't understand something about upgrading weapons and armor...

[Just Another Pathfinder]

Here is what I know:

1. When you create a masterwork piece of armor / shield it gets -1 to armor check penalty. This costs 150g.

2. When you create a masterwork weapon you get +1 attack with that weapon. This costs 300~600g.

What I can't find:

1. How to raise the base AC / Dex Bonus of Armor through enhancing.

2. How to raise the base Dmg / Atk of a weapon through enhancing.

I can't say I understand how this particularly works; how do you raise the base bonuses of the armor itself and how much does it cost? For instance a +3 AC piece of armor is not the same as a +3 masterwork piece of armor I don't think. I might be wrong. Any help is greatly appreciated!

For reference I got the idea from Jiggy:

Excerpt wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p2i4?Surviving-First-Level-in-PFS#1

No, you shouldn't have a masterwork weapon yet. That comes later, after you've gotten your armor sorted. Yeah, yeah, "if I kill them they can't hurt me", "the best defense is a good offense", blah blah blah. But do the math: for pretty much all of your first adventure's gold, you get a +1 to hit. For about half the price (masterwork costs are different between weapons and armor!) you can get about +2 or +3 to your AC. While "offense first" might (let's not debate it here) be a decent strategy for the long haul, at first level you're choosing between ~350gp for +1 to hit or ~175-350 for +3 to AC. Guess which one is more likely to get you to scenario #3?

I am just unaware of where this is in the CRB. I, for instance, don't know where he got the number 350 from.

[Skeld]

All magic weapons and armors are, by default, masterwork.

-Skeld

[Kimera757]

Core Rules:

The term "+3 masterwork [piece of] armor" doesn't make sense in the rules. All magic armor must be masterwork to begin with. Masterwork only gives the minor bonuses that you mentioned in your first 2 points. (Masterwork weapon bonus cost is 300 gp.) So you can't "masterwork" armor to +3, you in fact cannot masterwork an AC bonus at all. Because magic armor must be masterwork, "+3 magic armor" is sufficient.

You can make magic armor and weapons with the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, shown here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/craft-magic-arms-and-armo r-item-creation---final

For armor, you start with a masterwork suit of armor. To make things easier, let's suppose you're buying armor in a magic shop, rather than making it yourself. You pay (equivalent bonus) squared times 1000 gp, and add that to the masterwork suit of armor. So, for +1 armor, you pay 1000 gp extra, for +2 armor, you pay 8000 gp extra. The equivalent part is in case you're making special armor.

Normally magic armor doesn't give you a higher max Dex bonus or lower ACP. For that you need to buy mithral armor or armor made out of some other special material.

For weapons, it's the same cost, but double. A +2 flaming longsword or a +3 longsword would cost 18,000 gp extra. (Because the magic costs are so much higher than the masterwork weapon costs, people usually ignore the masterwork weapon costs.)

This was core rules only. Maybe there's some way of making super masterwork items in Ultimate Campaign or Mythic or some other book I don't have.

[Tempestorm]

First, there is no such thing as a +3 masterwork piece of anything.

Masterwork doesn't work that way. You had it mostly correct in the begining, it's 150 gp added to armor for -1 armor check penalty and 300gp added to the weapon for a +1 to attack... thats it. Thats as good as masterwork gets. The 600gp cost you are seeing is for a double weapon. (See CRB pg, 149 and 153)

To make armor/weapons better you need to enchant them. To enchant them they must be masterwork.

Armor: see CRB pg 461
- It is 1,000 gp to give armor a +1 enhancment bonus. This raises the armor class by 1.
- The cost increases to 4,000 gp for +2, 9,000 gp for +3, 16,000gp for +4, 25,000gp for +5, 36,000gp for +6, 49,000gp for +7, 64,000gp for +8, 81,000gp for +9 and 100,000gp for +12.
- Bear in mind that only you cannot raise the enchancment bonus higher than +5, the additional plusses leave room for properties.

Weapons: See CRB pg 468
- It is 2,000 gp to give a weapon a +1 enhancment bonus. This raises the attack and damage by 1 (does not stack with the masterwork +1 to attack).
- To go beyond +1 it is 8,000gp for +2, 18,000gp for +3, 32,000gp for +4, 50,000gp for +5, 72,000gp for +6, 98,000gp for +7, 128,000gp for +8, 162,000gp for +9, and 200,000gp for +10
- Again, a weapon cannot have higher than a +5 enhancment bonus to attack and damge, the additional plusses are to account for weapon properties.

[Just Another Pathfinder]

So I'm not far from the truth, this is good news, because that's what I gathered from the book for the most part, but that just leaves me more confused. How would one make, during level one, that much gold?

[drbuzzard]

For balance purposes it is assumed that at level one you do not have masterwork equipment (much less magical).

[SlimGauge]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

1. How to raise the base AC / Dex Bonus of Armor through enhancing.

The maximum dexterity bonus limitation on armor is not usually raised by the same enchantment that adds an enhancement bonus, they are seperate.

From table 15-29, the basic formula for raising an armor bonus is the bonus squared times 1000 gp. So a +2 chain shirt would be the cost of a masterwork chain shirt plus 4000 gp. Note also that some additional enhancements are a fixed cost (like Slick) while others (like Fortification) cost as if they were an additional +N.

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

2. How to raise the base Dmg / Atk of a weapon through enhancing.

From table 15-29, the basic formula for raising an weapon bonus is the bonus squared times 2000 gp. So a +2 longsword (+2 to hit and +2 to damage) would be the cost of a masterwork longsword plus 8000 gp. Note that the +1 to hit from masterwork does not stack with the +2 from the enchantment but overlaps. Note also that most additional enhancements cost as if they were an additional +N.

EDIT: Ninja'd lots

[Choon]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

So I'm not far from the truth, this is good news, because that's what I gathered from the book for the most part, but that just leaves me more confused. How would one make, during level one, that much gold?

You don't. I think his +3 AC/ 350gp amount is referring to heavier masterwork armors like mwk. breastplate over the light/medium armors.

[Tempestorm]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

So I'm not far from the truth, this is good news, because that's what I gathered from the book for the most part, but that just leaves me more confused. How would one make, during level one, that much gold?

I'm not even really sure how to respond to this...

Umm... you don't. As stated above, a level 1 doenst have enough for masterwork equipment, let alone magicaly enhanced equipment.

[Just Another Pathfinder]

Choon wrote:

You don't. I think his +3 AC/ 350gp amount is referring to heavier masterwork armors like mwk. breastplate over the light/medium armors.

Ah, I see. So he's talking about better basic armor with the 150g for masterwork lvl vs. a masterwork weapon then. That would make sense. That would make a lot of sense. That's probably correct I bet; goodness I'm silly.

Thank you for bringing that to light for me. I hate being new...

[Choon]

Everyone's new at some point. :)
Took me months to get a good handle on core concepts and the like. Even still I'm nowhere near some others lurking around here.

[fretgod99]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

For reference I got the idea from Jiggy:

Excerpt wrote:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p2i4?Surviving-First-Level-in-PFS#1

No, you shouldn't have a masterwork weapon yet. That comes later, after you've gotten your armor sorted. Yeah, yeah, "if I kill them they can't hurt me", "the best defense is a good offense", blah blah blah. But do the math: for pretty much all of your first adventure's gold, you get a +1 to hit. For about half the price (masterwork costs are different between weapons and armor!) you can get about +2 or +3 to your AC. While "offense first" might (let's not debate it here) be a decent strategy for the long haul, at first level you're choosing between ~350gp for +1 to hit or ~175-350 for +3 to AC. Guess which one is more likely to get you to scenario #3?

I am just unaware of where this is in the CRB. I, for instance, don't know where he got the number 350 from.

I believe what Jiggy is talking about here is whether it's a better idea to buy a masterwork version of whatever weapon you prefer or a masterwork version of better armor.

For instance, a masterwork greatsword is the same as your greatsword but with a +1 to hit (50 gp for greatsword + 300 for masterwork weapon). For that same 350 gp, you can go from having studded leather of splint mail to having masterwork studded leather (175 gp - which you'd only do if you're focused on avoiding any and all Armor Check penalties), chain shirt (250 gp), or breastplate (350 gp - 200gp for breastplate + 150 for masterwork armor). Depending on your character construction and what you could afford, that's potentially a difference of +3 to your AC (if you went from studded leather to mwk breastplate). That's where the +2-3 AC comes from. It's not +3 Masterwork [Armor]. It's the difference in AC provided by whatever you could afford at character creation and the best masterwork armor you can buy after surviving your first scenario.

That's what he's talking about. You might get 400-600 gp from your first PFS scenario. You've got enough money to upgrade one piece of equipment to masterwork and then buy some one-off items like potions. After your first scenario, he's advocating buying the best armor that you can get that fits your character because the utility of bumping your AC by (potentially) 3 is loads better (especially at first level) than bumping your to-hit by 1.

[fretgod99]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

Choon wrote:

You don't. I think his +3 AC/ 350gp amount is referring to heavier masterwork armors like mwk. breastplate over the light/medium armors.

Ah, I see. So he's talking about better basic armor with the 150g for masterwork lvl vs. a masterwork weapon then. That would make sense. That would make a lot of sense. That's probably correct I bet; goodness I'm silly.

Thank you for bringing that to light for me. I hate being new...

Like Choon said, everybody's been new. Don't feel silly for asking about something that confuses you. That's the only way to learn.

And in your defense, Jiggy's post there has some good ideas, but it's written by someone who's been playing the game and so it kind of assumes that the reader has a bit of familiarity with the PF system overall. It's a good guide with good ideas, but if you're still learning a bunch of the rules it might be tough to understand everything he's talking about.

[Tempestorm]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

Choon wrote:

You don't. I think his +3 AC/ 350gp amount is referring to heavier masterwork armors like mwk. breastplate over the light/medium armors.

Ah, I see. So he's talking about better basic armor with the 150g for masterwork lvl vs. a masterwork weapon then. That would make sense. That would make a lot of sense. That's probably correct I bet; goodness I'm silly.

Thank you for bringing that to light for me. I hate being new...

I realize that my post just above your could have come off as a bit acerbic. That was not my intent... I was honestly unsure how to answer. I am glad we have been able to explain it to you and show you where to find the information.

As for being new... don't worry about it. Takes awhile to digest everything.

[Akerlof]

Just Another Pathfinder wrote:

Choon wrote:

You don't. I think his +3 AC/ 350gp amount is referring to heavier masterwork armors like mwk. breastplate over the light/medium armors.

Ah, I see. So he's talking about better basic armor with the 150g for masterwork lvl vs. a masterwork weapon then. That would make sense. That would make a lot of sense. That's probably correct I bet; goodness I'm silly.

Thank you for bringing that to light for me. I hate being new...

When you initially create your character, you'll only have 150gp, so you're probably wearing Studded Leather, Hide or Scale Mail. The Breastplate is an improvement of +1 to +3 AC and you really want to buy a masterwork version if that's the armor you plan on sticking with and making magical. (If you don't, you'll have to sell it back at half price and then buy a masterwork version when you want to enchant it.) That's where Jiggy is getting the +3 AC for 350 gold. He's got a point, but he might be overselling it a bit. (Attack bonuses for PCs and NPCs are low in the first couple levels, adding +1 to your attack isn't likely to increase your chances to kill an enemy sooner. On the other hand, if you bought medium or heavy armor to start with, you won't get much of an upgrade going to a masterwork Breastplate, either.)

You can expect to have earned around 1,500gp when you hit level 2 in PFS, tier 1-2 scenarios generally give around 500gp a piece. So, if you're planning on going for something expensive like Full Plate or a Do Maru, save your money and don't spring for masterwork on your intermediate armor. You're just going to sell it anyway.

Attack bonuses are powerful, though. While I don't generally get a masterwork weapon after my first scenario, I usually do get one after my second or third. Upgrading it to magic can wait, though. As for masterwork armor, that depends on what my final armor is going to be: If I'm looking at full plate, I'll just get something cheap to tide me over, but if I'm planning on sticking with a Breastplate for my career, I'll go with a masterwork one asap. I usually prioritize useful things like a potion of cure light wounds, some alchemist's fire, some acid flasks, a tanglefoot bag or two, a smokestick or two, some utility scrolls if I'm a caster (even a battle cleric or druid) etc, over either armor or weapon.

Here's a thread on how to upgrade your gear in PFS: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p4s8?How-to-Upgrade-Your-Gear-in-PFS

[Jiggy]

Sorry for all the confusion from that post of mine. :/

As others have speculated, the increase to AC that I was talking about was from spending your first (PFS) adventure's gold on better armor, not from upgrading your existing armor.

[Ravingdork]

Below is a list of Market Prices for enchanted arms and armor. Note that the below prices are halved if you enchant the arms and armor yourself. Most of the rules differentiate between "price" and "cost" in this fashion.
.
.
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ENHANCEMENT / PRICE*

mwk / 150gp (armor/shield), 300gp (weapon)**
+01 / 1,000gp (armor/shield), 2,000gp (weapon)
+02 / 4,000gp (armor/shield), 8,000gp (weapon)
+03 / 9,000gp (armor/shield), 18,000gp (weapon)
+04 / 16,000gp (armor/shield), 32,000gp (weapon)
+05 / 25,000gp (armor/shield), 50,000gp (weapon)

You cannot have an enhancement modifier higher than +5 in most cases. The latter +5 (up to +10) are limited to magical special abilities, such as keen, flaming, or ghost touch (which you cannot get unless you have at least a +1 enhancement modifier first).

+06 / 36,000gp (armor/shield), 72,000gp (weapon)
+07 / 49,000gp (armor/shield), 97,000gp (weapon)
+08 / 64,000gp (armor/shield), 128,000gp (weapon)
+09 / 81,000gp (armor/shield), 162,000gp (weapon)
+10 / 100,000gp (armor/shield), 200,000gp (weapon)

* Excluding the price of the masterwork item itself.
** Armor, shields, and weapons must be masterwork before they can possess a magical enhancement modifier.

Here are the rules for magical arms and armor.