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As the title says, what happens?
I am pretty sure you would fall, but I can't seem to find the RAW.
I can see that you would normally only fall when you fail a Fly check by 5 or more. But that doesn't make any sense when you are trying to hover and fail by, say, 2. You can't hover, but you don't fall either...
Try Again: Varies. You can attempt a Fly check to perform the same maneuver on subsequent rounds. If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).
So I think the result is that if you fail by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground. But what happens if you fail by 4 or less is completely unclear. [HOUSE RULE ALERT]Personally, I think I'd invoke a piece of the "attacked while flying" section and say that if you fail your hover check by 4 or less, you lose 10 feet of altitude. This descent does not provoke an attack of opportunity and does not count against a creature's movement.[/HOUSE RULE]
I'm not certain that it is completely clear, but with most other skill checks, you make them to determine success or failure, so if you failed the hover check, I would not then let the player decide to move instead of hovering.
Since the fly check to hover is a DC 15, it's a fairly easy one for most flying beasts to make if they have a decent maneuverability and aren't huge. Then again, huge creatures with poor maneuverability (dragons and the like) generally have lots of skill points to sink into the Fly skill, since they're often CR 14 or higher monsters.
A really ungraceful face plant. :-)
If you fail a Fly check to hover you MUST move at least half your speed. If you can't make that move, you fall.As the only indication is that you fall to the ground if you fail by 5 or more with wings, nothing happens. I understand that it means that using magic to fly allows to hover at will, I don’t imagine ghosts unable to hover for example.
By the way, you only do this check at the end of your turn if you didn’t moved at all.
I want to make sure I understand the implications of this correctly. So you would let a player who has taken form of the dragon I, for example, make their hover check at the start of their turn and then decide if they are going to full attack the guy 10 feet in front of them by 5 foot stepping in, or go after another guy 40 feet away since "they feel like they won't be able to hover this 6 seconds"...?
I guess I don't see it the same way. In my mind, you take your actions and the check is a result of those action, which if failed, has consequences. I think this is consistent with the way most skill checks are handled, though there may be exceptions/outliers...
Am I understanding the implications of your quote correctly LazarX? If so, why would you do it that way? I'm currently playing a Dragon Disciple in an RotRL campaign and have been playing it that the check is a result of the action for a while now. I wouldn't mind being convinced otherwise, as it would help my character, but at this point, I don't believe that to be the most accurate interpretation of the rules. Convince me. =)
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LazarX is correct. If you wanted to "5 ft step" in and full attack, you would have to roll the fly check before doing so, to see if you can actually keep aloft to do so.
Ditto for if you're already in melee reach and simply want to full attack. You would make the Fly check first to see if your character is actually capable of hovering there to do so.
Needing to move forward a certain distance *is* a consequence, and if you are unable/unwilling to, you fall anyway.
Put another way:
If you made no fly check at all to try and hover, you would have to move the min. forward speed.
If you attempt to hover and succeed, you hover.
If you attempt to hover and fail, it's the same as not having tried to hover at all. Thus, you move forward or fall.
It's an optional check. You do not need to hover in order to fly. The penalty for failing it is...having to fly the normal way.
I strongly disagree.
There is no mention in the fly skill that you have to do the hover or moved less than half check at the beginning of your turn.
It is written that “Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.” If you add the text “Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.”, it becomes clear that the check for hover/moving less than half are done at the end of the round in reaction to not having moved a distance greater than half its speed.
Then what's the consequence to failing the check to hover? You can't fail a check then proceed to do exactly what it is you failed the check to see if you could do it.
You have to succeed at a hover check in order to not move while flying. If you don't succeed at the check, you do not get avoid moving.
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LazarX is correct. If you wanted to "5 ft step" in and full attack, you would have to roll the fly check before doing so, to see if you can actually keep aloft to do so.
Ditto for if you're already in melee reach and simply want to full attack. You would make the Fly check first to see if your character is actually capable of hovering there to do so.
Needing to move forward a certain distance *is* a consequence, and if you are unable/unwilling to, you fall anyway.
Put another way:
If you made no fly check at all to try and hover, you would have to move the min. forward speed.
If you attempt to hover and succeed, you hover.
If you attempt to hover and fail, it's the same as not having tried to hover at all. Thus, you move forward or fall.It's an optional check. You do not need to hover in order to fly. The penalty for failing it is...having to fly the normal way.
I second this ruling, it's straightforward and makes sense.
I strongly disagree.
There is no mention in the fly skill that you have to do the hover or moved less than half check at the beginning of your turn.
It is written that “Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed.” If you add the text “Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.”, it becomes clear that the check for hover/moving less than half are done at the end of the round in reaction to not having moved a distance greater than half its speed.
This might also be a valid interpretation. However, in this case, failing the check (even by less than five) means you cannot "remain flying" and thus you would fall.
I think:
To not fall at the end of a round, you have to either
- Have made a successful hover check some time during your round or
- Moved half your speed.
The hover check can be made at any time, and has different pro's and cons.
- Making it at the beginning of round allows you to know whether or not you have a movement requirement to not fall, however, should you fail the check by 5 or more you instantly will fall.
- Making it at the end of the round allows you to do all your stuff beforehand, possibly not even having to do it if you've for some reason moved.
Rolling the check first to determine if you can hover this round is the same as a player saying "I want to jump that cliff, but I need a 13 or better to do it, can I make the roll before I make the jump to determine if I should do it?" or "I want to disarm this trap, but my disable device is pretty poor, can I make the check to determine if I can disable it without actually running the risk of setting it off?"
Rule support: I think the "Action" part of the fly skill supports the rolling the check after the action has occurred:
Action: None. A Fly check doesn't require an action; it is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation. Empahsis, Mine.
By that, rolling the skill check first to determine if you can hover this round is neither "part of another action" or a "reaction to a situation", as you've not taken an action yet. Rolling the skill check after you've decided to take the full attack is a "reaction to a situation" - the situation being that you chose not to move that round. If you make the check, you're good. On the other hand, if you do not succeed at the fly check, then...
If you are using wings and you fail a Fly check by 5 or more, you plummet to the ground, taking the appropriate falling damage (see Environment).
Now, if this concern is related to the Fly spell, then...
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally.
That line from the fly spell overrides the specific requirements to make a fly check for hovering if you ask me. If it requires only as much concentration as walking, then how can you possibly fail to walk only five feet? If you ask me, that's the reason that the falling when failing the check by 5 or more refers only to winged flight.
All that said, my theory/thinking still leaves the hole of "what happens if you fail by 4 or less with winged flight"... So admittedly, it's not perfect and I'm likely missing something. But I've yet to see anything that convinces me more than the "part of another action" or "reaction to a situation" rule quote I just gave.
If you fail a fly skill check to hover, then you must continue flying. The consequence is in the first 2 sentences of the skill.
Hover is a complex maneuver, which allows you to stay stationary.
When would you do that check to hover then?If you fail a fly skill check to hover, then you must continue flying. The consequence is in the first 2 sentences of the skill.
(…)
Check: You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver.
Hovering is a complex maneuver, which you are attempting when making your full attack. Make the check before you proceed to see if you can actually do it or not. If you make your full attack, then do the check afterwards, how are you penalized for failing the check? You just did what your check said you failed to do.
Agreed with LazarX, but would add that I think that failing the check by less than five would mean that you could still perform your round's worth of actions, falling only at end of the round.
Agreed with LazarX, but would add that I think that failing the check by less than five would mean that you could still perform your round's worth of actions, falling only at end of the round.
I disagree. If you fail to hover, you need to move forward to stay aloft. You don't get to just decide you're going to stay put and take your actions, effectively hovering anyway. If you fail to hover and you don't move forward, you plummet. Which also counts as / consumes your movement for the round, iirc...
I think that as it states specifically "a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn" this indicates that the intent is that you fall at the end of your turn if you fail the check (by less than 5).
Personally, I do the "you lose 10 feet of altitude" thing when characters fail their fly check (without wings, of course). If they used a move action and failed their check, they lose the move action as well.