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Alright. So. I was in a PFS game a little while back, playing a level 7 Bladebound Kensai Magus / Aldori Swordlord. There was a player at the game, and he was playing a character that was a mix of fighter and rogue. The Gm I know from playing with several times with before and trust his judgement on such maters, and he seemed to be okay with what this fighter+rogue was doing. I myself am perfectly fine with what he was doing, but I simply don't know how he did it. I don't have his name, so I can't contact him to figure it out.
What he was doing was as follows. He would run around enemies, deliberately provoking AoO's. When the monsters missed, they would be denied their dex bonus, at which point he would sneak attack them with (usually) a shield bash. He had high armor and was wearing fullplate. It was a glorious build and I want to try it, I simply don't know how to do it. If someone wouldn't mind helping me out here, I would greatly appreciate the insight. What seems like the most likely build he had going on in order to pull off this wonderful trick? I'm fairly adept at creating characters, but I can't make any headway on my own.
Preedmptive: No, it wasn't feint. At least I don't believe it was. There wasn't a bluff check involved, and he always tried to provoke from them. He usually only did this little trick when there wasn't the opportunity to flank with someone. He did normal flank procedure when it was available.
Off the top of my head I know Snake Style + Flowing Monk can retaliate and make an opponent flat footed, but that's more of a monk thing than a fighter or rogue.
Yeah, I have no idea what he was doing. Panther and Snake styles are both unarmed retaliatory strikes and don't make foe flatfooted. Crane Riposte doesn't either and is 1/round.
Did he happen to have Shatter Defenses and a means to keep foes intimidated, like Rake Rogue's ability to lose a SA dice to intimidate on a hit, or the Enforcer or Cornugon Smash feats?
I think the two questions I have here is...
1. If this GM actually reviewed his build and found it all to be legit, and you see this GM on a semi-regular basis... can't you just try asking him what the guy did?
2. Why did the monsters keep AoO'ing the rogue? You'd think after the first 2-3 times of him counter-attacking their allies, they'd have wised up.
sounds like an illegal build to me, unless it depends on some obscure feat chain or archetype from some odd companion pamphlet.
flowing monk can do with with panther or snake, but that isn't fighter/rogue.
I think I'd like some clarification.
Was it really an immediate retaliation attack? Or did the enemy missing the AoO just deny their dex and he used his regular action to shield bash them while they were vulnerable?
Level 8
Scout archetype
Skirmisher ability
Level 8
Scout archetype
Skirmisher ability
that one simply requires you to move 10 feet or further, most of the mentioned requirements are far more convoluted, the scout version also doesn't work in medium or heavy armor.
No the op thinks they were more convoluted
Also tell me why it does not work in other armor types than light
Throw in some daredevil boots and some vague interpretations of the combat patrol rogue talent and you probably have your build
I will not argue whether or not it is actually legal, that is for thread people to do
No the op thinks they were more convoluted
Also tell me why it does not work in other armor types than light
the rogue's uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, just like their evasion, require light armor
skirmisher replaces improved uncanny dodge
it would be logical that it has the same armor restrictions
Uh show me where those require light armor, like evasion states
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The more important flaw in the scout archetype is that the skirmisher ability applies to only the first attack each round. It is spelled out very clearly. That specific combination does not address the conundrum.
But it doesn't. He would still be losing on Evasion though.
Uh show me where those require light armor, like evasion states
i guess i must be thinking of previous editions, sorry.
The more important flaw in the scout archetype is that the skirmisher ability applies to only the first attack each round. It is spelled out very clearly. That specific combination does not address the conundrum.
Sure it does, if all the pc in question was doing was a shield bash
And when you combine skirmisher with a vague interpretation of combat patrolWhether it is right or wrong
You get basically what the op stated happened
First, unless an ability says you have to wear light armor, you don't. It doesn't matter if such an ability was replaced.
Second, the much simpler explanation as to why the guy can't be a scout is this:
The original poster was level 7, and the guy in question had at least one level of Fighter (since he was shield bashing in full plate), so in order for it to be Scout, this other character had to be at least level 9. Now, I admit, I completely hate PFS and everything it stands for, so I guess I don't know for sure, but I'm going to take a wild guess and say it doesn't involve PCs that are 2+ levels apart.
Second, the much simpler explanation as to why the guy can't be a scout is this:
The original poster was level 7, and the guy in question had at least one level of Fighter (since he was shield bashing in full plate), so in order for it to be Scout, this other character had to be at least level 9. Now, I admit, I completely hate PFS and everything it stands for, so I guess I don't know for sure, but I'm going to take a wild guess and say it doesn't involve PCs that are 2+ levels apart.
I thought of that, but just assumed the pc in question was probably level 9
they could easily have wound up together in a 5-9, depending on their tier
but
at this point, it is all just guess work until either the OP, the PC player and/or the GM show us what is behind the curtain
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I seem to remember a few feats/rogue talents, one of which made an opponent lose their Dex to AC for the turn if they missed an AoO against you, and one which made a failed AoO against you provoke an AoO from you.
Assuming that these things exist and I'm not just imagining them, it seems fairly straight forward to combine them with a Combat Reflexes rogue to tumble around deliberately provoking in order to get some sneak attacks and put your enemies off balance.
I am going to see if I can find these abilities in the rules. It's possible I'm misremembering or just crazy.
EDIT: After perusing the rules, I have determined that I am crazy. The closest thing I could find is the Panther Style feat and the capstone feat for Snake Style, both of which allow you to hit someone who makes an AoO against you, but they only let you do so with unarmed strikes.
Could be something like Shatter Defenses + Crane Riposte or False Opening
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Alright. So. I was in a PFS game a little while back, playing a level 7 Bladebound Kensai Magus / Aldori Swordlord. There was a player at the game, and he was playing a character that was a mix of fighter and rogue. The Gm I know from playing with several times with before and trust his judgement on such maters, and he seemed to be okay with what this fighter+rogue was doing. I myself am perfectly fine with what he was doing, but I simply don't know how he did it. I don't have his name, so I can't contact him to figure it out.
What he was doing was as follows. He would run around enemies, deliberately provoking AoO's. When the monsters missed, they would be denied their dex bonus, at which point he would sneak attack them with (usually) a shield bash. He had high armor and was wearing fullplate. It was a glorious build and I want to try it, I simply don't know how to do it. If someone wouldn't mind helping me out here, I would greatly appreciate the insight. What seems like the most likely build he had going on in order to pull off this wonderful trick? I'm fairly adept at creating characters, but I can't make any headway on my own.
Preedmptive: No, it wasn't feint. At least I don't believe it was. There wasn't a bluff check involved, and he always tried to provoke from them. He usually only did this little trick when there wasn't the opportunity to flank with someone. He did normal flank procedure when it was available.
Was he a Halfling? Halfling Opportunist gets the ability to sneak attack with their AoOs, and as mentioned in other posts, there are ways to make opportunity attacks when you provoke from a foe.
The more important flaw in the scout archetype is that the skirmisher ability applies to only the first attack each round. It is spelled out very clearly. That specific combination does not address the conundrum.
Yup. I checked Scout first.
Only one attack per round treats them as flatfooted; and it's a level 8 ability on a guy who's multiclassed and presumably about level 8 himself.
If the build is legal, I still think Shatter Defenses is the key ingredient.
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He was using this archetype.The ability in question is Elusive Gambit, not that great if you ask me but hey to each his own.
He was using this archetype.The ability in question is Elusive Gambit, not that great if you ask me but hey to each his own.
Yep, that's definitely it. That would put him at Scroll Scoundrel 6/Fighter 1, which makes a lot more sense.
And see, it wasn't "he got to attack back at the guy for free when they missed an AoO," it was just, "they missed an AoO and now I use my standard action to attack with my sneak attack."
I suspect the problem is that the original poster was impressed with this build, and most of the people here recognize how lame it would actually be. Most jumped to the conclusion that it had to be some way to get additional sneak attacks in, above and beyond the normal (since even the normal is weak damage), and the idea of him using a shield suggested he was dual wielding. Oh well.
"Oh, I got a single shield attack with +3d6 sneak attack damage!"
"Hooray? My full base attack class with a greatsword just swung twice for around 2d6+20."
"Oh, but...I rolled more dice..."
Nah, the build sounded awful from the start, requiring enemies ot keep trying to AoO him to function.
The fact that it's even worse than that in actuality just makes it even more pitiful.
I do suspect he was using some sort of counter-attack ability to actually strike every one that missed him with AoOs once each rather than making a single attack action. However, the thing that fits that to a T, the Panther Style chain, is unarmed only. Well, Come and Get Me would work, too...but he obviously wasn't Barb 12.
I don't like this archetype at all, though. And it manages to trade off at least one thing that every other rogue archetype swaps, so you'd better REALLY like it, because it demands exclusivity for a class whose archetypes tend to allow a 2nd commitment.
thanks for the fun thought exercise, OP
lates
+1 for False Opening. I had a figher/knifemaster rogue that did something like this.
I disagree. The ability getting replaced do not have anything to do with the new ability, the restriction to the first do not affect the later unless specifically stated.No the op thinks they were more convoluted
Also tell me why it does not work in other armor types than light
the rogue's uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, just like their evasion, require light armor
skirmisher replaces improved uncanny dodge
it would be logical that it has the same armor restrictions
so if he took scout alongside an archetype that replaced evasion, he'd no longer have to worry about armor?
sounds kinda like how the master of many styles and ironskin monk archetypes, when combined, produce a monk that loses next to nothing relevant from wearing armor.
it's not so much cheesy in the OP sense, as much as it's cheesy in the mold defying and unusual sense. it doesn't leave a bad taste in the mouth, just an awkward one that requires a bit of adaption.
The rogue is still not proficient with heavy armor, but otherwise yes.I disagree. The ability getting replaced do not have anything to do with the new ability, the restriction to the first do not affect the later unless specifically stated.No the op thinks they were more convoluted
Also tell me why it does not work in other armor types than light
the rogue's uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, just like their evasion, require light armor
skirmisher replaces improved uncanny dodge
it would be logical that it has the same armor restrictions
so if he took scout alongside an archetype that replaced evasion, he'd no longer have to worry about armor?
sounds kinda like how the master of many styles and ironskin monk archetypes, when combined, produce a monk that loses next to nothing relevant from wearing armor.
2 level fighter dip or 3 level weapon master dip fixes that, grants heavy armor, 2 feats, and access to gloves of dueling.
Based on this discussion i´m thinking to make a build Barbarian 12/ Rogue 8 Come and get me + snake fang
any thoughts?
Based on this discussion i´m thinking to make a build Barbarian 12/ Rogue 8 Come and get me + snake fang
any thoughts?
Are you planning to use the Scroll Scoundrel? Its ability only works if you Provoke from moving through squares. Its also not great in a home game because the DM can just decide to not hit you, or set you up against archers. PFS the DM won't control what's set up against you, and may not even know who you are.
If your going to do it I'd suggest you not take the 8th level in rogue. A single rogue talent with no BAB bonus and a +1 to reflex saves. Take Master of Many Styles or Unarmed fighter at an earlier level to qualify for your style prerequisites better.
Rogue 8 does get a BAB increase; it's 9 he does not.
Still, that build looks pretty awful and needs level 18 (Barb 12 / Rogue 6) for the payoff -- CaGM + scroll scoundrel's make 'em flatfooted ability.
No Scroll Scoundrel...
A char focused in unarmed damage and throw weapons with sneak attack.
Come and get me with snake fang and False opening. you make a range attack in melee, the opponent will hit you, you get more 1 attack from come and get and if the opponent miss you get more 1 unarmed attack. He attack you once you can attack him 3 times.