Quick check on how people would rule this.
If you have a ring of freedom of movement do you auto make swim checks? or do you simply have a swim speed (which per the skill gives you a +8 to make a swim check if there is an underwater hazard? For example: If a character wearing the ring gets caught in a whirlpool, can they simply move out on their turn? or do they need to make a swim check to get back to get out of the hazard and move normally with the ring underwater. Since the ring prevents hinderences to movement but not the character being forceably moved (ie bull rushed) I am thinking that they would need to make a swim check to get out of the constant current (with a +8 from the swim speed granted by the ring)?
"The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater, ...."
I take this to mean they could walk along the bottom and move normally, not necessarily swim or get a swim speed. A whirlpool seems like a much more active challenge then just difficult terrain.
I agree with your logic that it would be like a constant bull rush of water. I think I would have them make the swim check, maybe with a +4 bonus. But by RAW I'm not sure if the ring would have any affect on a whirlpool.
Humans move "normally" by walking on the ground. As do almost all other races (and it's the default for game rules). So when the spell says "allows the subject to move normally" it means the subject can walk on the ground at a normal speed unhindered by the water. It also lets him swing weapons unhindered by water.
It in no way imparts the ability to swim nor does it give a swim speed.
In fact, swimming requires physical resistance. If Freedom of Movement removes all resistance, making you truly free from being hindered by water, then you couldn't swim at all (you would have to fly). But that's more interpretation and/or detail than I think the game requires.
Suffice it to say that with the ring, you walk on the bottom and fight like there is no water. That's it.
I'm not sure what rules you're using for a whirlpool. A Water Elemental can create one and uses the rules for Whirlwind (Air Elemental ability) to resolve it. There is no bullrush, just slam attacks and possibly getting trapped. A creature that can fly can try to escape a Whirlwind, so it seems a creature that can swim can try to escape a Whirlpool (that is swim, not requiring a swim speed, but probably requiring a swim skill check and then the necessary REF save as described in the special ability). Since there is no specific mechanic that says Freedom of Movement makes you lose the ability to swim (what I said above is just speculative musing, not actual rules), any character capable of making a Swim check could try to escape a whirlpool regardless of whether he has Freedom of Movement or not.
I have even had one of my players (a rules lawyer type) claim since your unhindered by the water you would "fall through it like it was air". Since you don't float and as previous posters have said, you could walk along the bottom if said lake, etc and swing weapons normally.
Naturally my player was trying to imply that if a character under such an effect fell out of a boat they would "fall" to the bottom of the water and sustain fall damage at the bottom.
A huge oversight no?, my take on the spell is that you could still be "in" the water but you certainly don't plummet through it like it was air. Something seems wrong with with the spell if it could be so dangerous for a character to use in water (which may be one of the few situations characters would want one save to avoid becoming grappled or engulfed)
Oooh, does that mean that Freedom of Movement allows its user to Earthglide? After all, the earth impedes my freedom to move through the ground, so shouldn't my ring make it so I can freely move through the ground too?
The whirlpool would be attempting to otherwise restrain/trap the character so yes, freedom of movement would allow you to escape automatically.
As for helping swimming, I would reread this part and interpret it thus.
The spell also allows the subject to move and attack normally while underwater.
I interpret this as you still have to make swim checks, but regardless of outside factors, the dc is easy. I might also allow the person to move at full speed underwater but thats only because water encounters can be so deadly if the players were caught off guard of it. Aquatic creatures CR doesn't take into account that chances are they're fighting in VERY favorable terrain. Casters can't cast properly and martials get big penalties.
Oooh, does that mean that Freedom of Movement allows its user to Earthglide? After all, the earth impedes my freedom to move through the ground, so shouldn't my ring make it so I can freely move through the ground too?
Moving through the earth was never a valid movement option. Period. I hate it when people bring up completely inane reasoning such as this.
The reason why you could argue it does for water is that moving through water is already a valid movement option.
Oooh, does that mean that Freedom of Movement allows its user to Earthglide? After all, the earth impedes my freedom to move through the ground, so shouldn't my ring make it so I can freely move through the ground too?Moving through the earth was never a valid movement option. Period. I hate it when people bring up completely inane reasoning such as this.
The reason why you could argue it does for water is that moving through water is already a valid movement option.
But...
But...
But...
I WANT to move through the earth but all this dirt is blocking my freedom of movement, so my ring should let me Earthglide, right?
Right?
Right?
(Or, in other words, I'm employing Reductio ad Absurdum here - sorry if that was not clear in my previous post).
Scavion, your reasoning makes sense. My players have tried to pry at silly arguments like this for the longest time - arguing about the fluff and crunch of abilities and spells.
Your answer is one I wholeheartedly agree with.
Freedom Of Movement is simply an awesome spell, no doubts there. In 3.5 ANYTHING that could Grapple you almost always could beat you easily, this was one if the few ways out of that predicament. In Pathfinder it's still a class spell which assures you encounters with the multi tentacled monstrositys if doom or fights versus oozes are much much less difficult when you can simply "walk" out of an engulfing/grappling monster (possibly provoking AoO 's if course but that's why you withdraw or use 5ft steps) to safety.
Oooh, does that mean that Freedom of Movement allows its user to Earthglide? After all, the earth impedes my freedom to move through the ground, so shouldn't my ring make it so I can freely move through the ground too?Moving through the earth was never a valid movement option. Period. I hate it when people bring up completely inane reasoning such as this.
The reason why you could argue it does for water is that moving through water is already a valid movement option.
But...
But...
But...
I WANT to move through the earth but all this dirt is blocking my freedom of movement, so my ring should let me Earthglide, right?
Right?
Right?
(Or, in other words, I'm employing Reductio ad Absurdum here - sorry if that was not clear in my previous post).
Nope. I could WANT to fly into space but all this gravity is pinning me down. Should freedom of movement let me launch into the air?
This is an old argument and we could go around forever and still not see eye to eye.
Here is what we know about Freedom of Movement and it's interaction with water.
No penalty on Slashing/Bludgeoning/Piercing attack and damage (Swim speed still gives you -2/half)
Not off balance (Same as if you had a swim speed)
Normal Movement (Same as if you had a swim speed)
Do you fall straight to the bottom, no, there is nothing in the rules about losing buoyancy. The rules do say you move as normal. I would guess that meant that if I had a 30 foot movement, I would now be able to move through water at 30 feet and not a quarter of that.
I would take that to mean that I move normally through the water, walking on the bottom of the water, or on the water's surface. It is just that simple.
Now, trying to get out of a whirlpool sets a new set of rules into play. While granting the ability to "move and attack normally while under water" says nothing about environmental effects, there is a precedent that Paizo has set in the Jade Regent adventure path. In book three, The Hungry Storm, one of the bad guys is able to "fly through the room unhindered by the winds" because of her Freedom of Movement in the middle of a storm of "windstorm" strength. It appears that Paizo is saying that counts as moving "normally" in that situation.
That could be taken to understand that a whirlpool would be the same effect, just under water and we already established that you may move as normal under water, ie. full speed, not quarter speed. That would probably have to be a DM call as it really is not covered fully in the rules. If it were me, I would lean towards allowing you to move as normal out of the whirlpool and through the water as that is how I seen the intention of the spell.
I think DM Blake is usually spot on with rules questions, but I think the hyperbole of bringing up moving through stone or a wall is over the top and not within the scope of the spell of this discussion. Now, I would allow a character to move unhindered through thick mud or quicksand without penalty.
Those are my two coppers for what it is worth.
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For humans, 'normal' movement through water is by swimming.
Freedom of movement would allow you to walk on the bottom of the river/lake/whatever as if you were on land, and flat land at that. But you would swim at the rate your normal swimming ability allows, usually by the swim skill. You would not suffer any additional movement penalty for things like rough water, and you can ignore the effects of the whirlpool as if it weren't there.
For humans, fish, and aquatic creatures the "normal" method of moving through water is swimming. The rules state that it is at quarter speed. So "normal" should mean at your normal speed, ie. 30ft or whatever it is. This could be a true swim speed which says normal on the chart or Freedom of Movement which says normal on the chart.
Again, this is why asking questions like this is akin to begging for arguments from all sides of the issue. I see the RAW and RAI, for whatever those terms are worth, to say that with Freedom of Movement my character with a base speed of 30 feet can now move at 30 feet underwater whether he is on firm ground or just moving through the water. Otherwise the whole Combat Adjustments Underwater chart is meaningless at least in the Movement column.
So, believe what you will, play it the way that you will, I was just trying to give Kildaere my take on the spell and how it works underwater. I am not saying it is the gospel, just my take on it.