RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I come to really dislike, if not hate, the Knowledge (local) skill in Pathfinder. I never had much of a problem with it until I started heavily playing PFS. For example, the party traveled thousands of miles to a country they have never visited before or needed to learn about. Then to an extremely remote area, a small village in the hinterlands. Only to make a Know (local) check with a 30+ to remember all about a single person who has never probably never left the village. WTF?
Why not roll Knowledge (local and nobility) together? Besides reducing the number of Knowledge skills, you take 2 rarely taken skills (outside of organized play in my experience) and make a single more useful skill. Not all portions of the skills get rolled together, a few are broken out.
As it stands currently:
Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Nobility (lineages, heraldry, personalities, royalty)
New skill:
Society (laws, customs, traditions, lineages, heraldry, royalty, humanoids)
But what about the Local legends, personalities, and inhabitants or Nobility personalities? I believe gathering information via Diplomacy is more apt to the situation and allows for more roleplaying. Local legends could easily be folded under Knowledge (history).
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I do agree that the Know skills should really be reduced.
Local should just be a Wis ability check
Know Religion would include history/myths , religions/cults, mysteries, riddles, undead, outsiders, and planes of existence, and divine magic (divine only).
Know Arcana would be about alchemy, dragons, aberrations, constructs, arcane magic (arcane only), and relevant lore about wizard/sorcerer history and organizations (arcane only)
Know Nature would roll in Geography, and be used to know about plants, animals, magical beasts, herbalism.
Know Nobility would roll in parts of Engineering and Dungeoneering, History (in a much more generic sense than covered by Religion), parts of Local, and also involve cultures, national and military banners and tactics, and strategy.
I like the idea of combining local and nobility together. I've seen lots of Knowledge (local) checks made but seldom a nobility one, but where the latter would be pertinent, it would be so similar to making a local check (after all, it's about knowing who the important people are locally) you may as well make it the same skill.
It would also be nice if more people had it as a class skill.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I like the idea of combining local and nobility together. I've seen lots of Knowledge (local) checks made but seldom a nobility one, but where the latter would be pertinent, it would be so similar to making a local check (after all, it's about knowing who the important people are locally) you may as well make it the same skill.
It would also be nice if more people had it as a class skill.
I have always thought it a bit odd that Know (local) was not as common a skill as Craft or Profession. Most characters come from some sort of society and would make alot of sense.
I've long been using Streetwise as a skill composed of Knowledge: Local, Gather Information and Survival (urban), both in Star Wars d20 and Pathfinder.
I do like the idea of Know: Nature/Geography as the same skill.
In the Game of Thrones you have ranks in Knowledge Nobility or you die.
Inspired by this and one other thread, I am thinking of using these groups in my own games:
New Group (included previous grups)
Divine (Planes, Religion)
Scholarship (Arcana, Engineering)
World (Nature, Geography)
Myth (History, Dungeoneering)
Society (Local, Nobility)
Anyone have any other ideas? I think 5 instead of 10 groups is much better, IMO.
If you put Engineering as Scholarship, it suddenly makes no sense to give it to fighters. Put History and Arcana together and put Engineering together with some sort of strategy or warcraft skill.
If you then want to reduce Knowledges further, throw Geography in with Arcana/History, put Know: Local, Gather Information and urban survival together as Streetwise, put Know: Nature in with Survival and use Dungeoneering as your all-purpose underground/cave survival skill. You could also throw Know: Nobility into Diplomacy to give a reason for non-faces to invest in it.
Dungeoneering, Survival and Streetwise would all be Wisdom checks, Diplomacy still a Cha check, and Planes/Religion, Arcana/Geography/History and Engineering/Warcraft would be Int checks.
That move sort of entails a much broader rework of the skills system...
Not that I am against it, just saying it's more work... Hmm... Maybe later.
Well, it's not that different. Bards and wizards still get the three remaining Knowledge skills, fighters and clerics are unchanged, rangers and druids get Dungeoneering and Survival and rogues and bards get Streetwise.
I don't think that knowledge have to be fused together. According to me, it is one of the big fail of the 4th edition and one of the main reason why I turned to Pathfinder.
In my games, I usually use a lot of heraldic and symbols in the developing of the plot and intrigue. In two games I am actually running, Nobility and Local are the two Knowledge rolled to most often, behind Religion and Arcana. In more urban / civilized settings, these skills are very useful and almost necessary to progress.
The knowledge with witch I have problem are History and Engineering. History still very circumstantial (exploring ruins, learning about important past event). I use Kingmaker rules and I think about introducing Knowledge history as a warfare knowledge (military history is the main aspect of tactical education). Character could use knowledge history when commanding armies or to analyze the battlefield situation. History could also be used to know about the relative military power of X,Y faction, which can be very important.
However, I lack ideas about knowledge Engineering. I think about allowing it to identify some construct creatures, maybe only Clockworks. It is also used to fire siege engine...but this is sooo circumstantial.
Bah , one of my GMs decided that (local) would give you only information over an area , not over all it says it would globaly.
After that i nerve even added one point to the thing , while i do have points in all other :P.
Adding the name local to this caused a lot of trouble lols.
OK, was bored at work, so I came up with this.
Is this a good direction? Please give feedback.
I like the idea of splitting up/codifying Craft skills (I did that in Star Wars d20 by appropriating the TOR crew skills). I also like the name (and combination) of Cunning and Thaumaturgy.
Despite being a serious Elder Scrolls aficionado, I would break Jump out Acrobatics and add it to Athletics if you're going to merge in Escape Artist. I'd also suggest putting Sense Motive in with Bluff, so you can have a Cha/Wis skill that is used to oppose itself.
You have Craft (Potions) under Medicine, but you also have an Alchemy skill. You may also wish to put scribing scrolls under Linguistics.
I like the idea of splitting up/codifying Craft skills (I did that in Star Wars d20 by appropriating the TOR crew skills). I also like the name (and combination) of Cunning and Thaumaturgy.
Thanks!
One thing I'm trying to do about crafting is to power it up a bit without resorting to magic. Things like more relevant material effects. When I find the time, I will expand upon this bit further.Despite being a serious Elder Scrolls aficionado, I would break Jump out Acrobatics and add it to Athletics if you're going to merge in Escape Artist.
I... would not be against this idea.
I'd also suggest putting Sense Motive in with Bluff, so you can have a Cha/Wis skill that is used to oppose itself.
I really wouldn't like this. It would make the skill more important, and I'm not sure I like the self-countering property of something like that. Instead, I hope to make Evaluate more relevant and useful.
You have Craft (Potions) under Medicine, but you also have an Alchemy skill. You may also wish to put scribing scrolls under Linguistics.
Hey, this is an excellent idea!
One more note about the Linguistics skill is the way I run it: with each rank you can either learn another language (starter language(s) and Int bonus languages are just this), or to improve upon a language you already, making it possible to fake accents, spot dialects, that sort of thing. This rapidly cuts down on the "I know every language ever" effect of later levels. I like how your idea could actually make scholars more scholarly, and less "I just do magic."
Well, Bluff/Sense Motive would make fighter-types slightly better. As they train their ability to make successful feints, they are also increasing their ability to resist them. If you still want an evaluate skill, you might want to consider throwing together Appraise and Search (out of Perception), which would make Perception slightly less essential and play to a rogue's strengths too.
With Linguistics, I go for 1 rank meaning that you are literate in all your starting languages, every even rank meaning a new spoken language and every other odd rank meaning your ability to read/write its script (if necessary). Adding in accent recognition and dialects might be something for an actual Linguistics check (say, with a +8 bonus for your automatic tongues), rather than as a rank-related bonus.
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I threw out appraise as a stand-alone skill; now, every skill that helps craft something or deal with something (alchemy, craftsmanship, heal, thaumaturgy, etc.) will have an appraise-like application to identify and price items related to it. Evaluate is for sense motive, roughly gauge the capabilities of an observed creature, etc. The name might be a bit misleading, I admit.
About linguistics, every language has at least two or more accents or dialects or other variations, but not every language has a unique written component. Sure, I could start including the "this language uses the XYZ alphabet", but that'd be inelegant. To me, the idea of a first level adventurer from, say, Wales, with a thick welsh accent, being able to almost effortlessly pass as a minor noble from Córdoba (because he has an Int of 12 to learn spanish as well as english, and a point in linguistics) based on speech alone is a very pleasing trope.
One additional skill I am trying to come up with now is something related to cutting gems, crafting jewelry, appraising the minute valuables, etc. A name like lapidary, fine crafts, or something along those lines. It is distinct from craftsmanship, construction, and alchemy. Any advice on that one? What other useful ability should I consider adding alongside my existing ones?
I went with Fine Art for my Star Wars Pathfinder conversion (and included paintings and antiques), though Kirthfinder uses Craft: Lapidary. (Incidentally, I also went with Appraise as a function of the unified Craft skills.)
You might want to have a strategy skill. Birthright d20 calls it Warcraft and Saga calls it Knowledge (tactics), though you may also want to throw in Profession (soldier) as well, for use with Ultimate Campaign's Mass Combat rules.
Likewise, you may wish to consider how you're going to handle Profession skills. In my Star Wars conversion, I went with a feat that allows you to use one of your vocational skills as a Profession check, but there are far fewer 'job' skills in Pathfinder. You may wish to take that option with your Medicine, Craft and Thaumaturgy skills.
Another thing I just thought of - you might consider removing Craft (enchant) from Thaumaturgy and adding it to UMD. That way, Thaumaturgy is not the be-all and end-all skill for all spellcasters and not just rogues & bards will take UMD. It does make thematic sense that someone skilled at using/abusing magic items would also be more skilled at making them from scratch (and the reverse).
To tell you the truth, I'm considering getting rid of Use Magic Device entirely, and fold the functions of that into certain other skills. Want to use a wand of cure light wounds, and you don't have that spell on your list? Give me a heal check. Wanna use any scroll, and you don't have the spell on your class list? Linguistics (maybe). That sort of thing.
The reasons for this are multiple. First, it would solidify magic as an integral part of the setting. In a real, functional universe, a master woodcarver WILL get SOME skill at using a scroll or wand of fabricate or something along those lines, but that should NOT mean that he is automatically able to use wands of fireball, scrolls of summon monster, or emulate the ability to smite evil, and it definitely should NOT mean that he no longer has any need for a craft (carving) skill.
Professions and performs are all included in the competence skills. It has a variable ability score attached, so jugglers use competence (juggling) (Dex), public speakers use competence (oratory) (Cha), playwrights use competence (literature) (Int), etc.
It's an interesting idea about the strategy and tactics skill. I might see it as yet another function of evaluate (as in, evaluate a tactical situation or plan out an enemy's likely response)... I'll have to think on that one yet.
I think you'll over-egg your Evaluate/Sense Motive skill if you also try to make it pull duty as as a strategy skill, especially as Evaluate is clearly Wis-based and strategy/tactics is conventionally Int-based.
I do think that you're in danger of making Thaumaturgy [i]too[/i powerful a skill. Even if you go with your multi-USE idea (say, 5 ranks in a skill allows you to use that skill as if UMD for related items), there's still room for a general magical device usage skill, particularly if (as I suggested) you bundle it with Craft (Enchant) as well.
Hmm... True that about Evaluate... I'll have to think up a skill to encompass tactics, strategy, logistics, siege, etc.
I'll try to not make thaumaturgy as a general UMD. Scrolls would all fall into either linguistics or their respective skill (stealth for invisibility, deftness for haste, animal handling for summon nature's ally, to name a few examples). But I'm still uncertain about that idea. Maybe I'll go along with SOME non-UMD skill-as-UMD and NOT axe UMD at all, leave it as an option for more generalist classes such as bards and rogues...
Hmm... True that about Evaluate... I'll have to think up a skill to encompass tactics, strategy, logistics, siege, etc.
Birthright d20 calls it Warcraft and Saga calls it Knowledge (tactics), though you may also want to throw in Profession (soldier) as well, for use with Ultimate Campaign's Mass Combat rules.
I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel. :) It's both important and specialised enough to need its own skill and if you make it an all-purpose military skill, then soldiers can take ranks in it as their Profession skill, tacticians (who need not be fighters) can take ranks in it and so on.
Maybe I'll go along with SOME non-UMD skill-as-UMD and NOT axe UMD at all, leave it as an option for more generalist classes such as bards and rogues...
If you go with your variant UMD idea, I'd stick to spell-trigger items like wands and staves, rather than spell-completion items such as scrolls. It makes sense that an animal handler could eventually make items of speak with animals etc., but it seems very odd that the non-scholarly types could bust out scrolls and potions, which are traditionally the domain of the learned classes.
I don't think you need to reinvent the wheel. :) It's both important and specialised enough to need its own skill and if you make it an all-purpose military skill, then soldiers can take ranks in it as their Profession skill, tacticians (who need not be fighters) can take ranks in it and so on.
So far, I like either Warcraft (but it's a rather famous IP, so I'd rather avoid the association), Warfare or Battlecraft for the name of this skill.
If you go with your variant UMD idea, I'd stick to spell-trigger items like wands and staves, rather than spell-completion items such as scrolls. It makes sense that an animal handler could eventually make items of speak with animals etc., but it seems very odd that the non-scholarly types could bust out scrolls and potions, which are traditionally the domain of the learned classes.
I fear you may have misunderstood, I would not allow, say, an animal handler to craft a scroll of speak with animals without actually having the spell. That would be too much, and could break a lot of things. He could, however, make a handle animals check instead of a use magic device check in order to use a scroll of speak with animals, summon nature's ally, etc.
HOWEVER, casters would need to use linguistics to make scrolls, thaumaturgy to infuse arcane spells into wands or arcane effects into items, ontology to do the same with divine effects, etc. The semi-magical crafting by non-magical classes would come in the form of craftsmanship (+# weapon enchantments replicated in the form of various materials, high quality workmanship to replicate, say, 'of dueling' properties, etc.), alchemy (transmuting materials, making them spontaneously burst into flame when in contact with blood, etc.), and heal (potions, oils, etc of cure X wounds, remove poison, remove disease, restoration, etc). An alchemist would get to replicate a use-activated fireball-like one-shot item without any magical talent, but he'll never be able to replicate stuff like detect thoughts, animate rope, magic mouth, etc. Basically, I want an expert blacksmith be able to craft a +1 Keen Flame Burst Scimitar without caster levels or hilariously extensive feat tax.
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Originally, in 3e, Knowledge(local) was intended for a specific area. So, if you lived in the Dales of FR, you might put ranks in Knowledge(Shadowdale). I don't know at what point that changed or was simply abandoned.
As a tangent, I think Perform originally allowed you take take up a different "instrument" for each rank (or x ranks) you put into the skill.
-Skeld
Finding out the local gossip in a new location you've never been before? That should be Streetwise, or maybe Diplomacy.
(Sniff) I miss Streetwise.
I've long been using Streetwise as a skill composed of Knowledge: Local, Gather Information and Survival (urban), both in Star Wars d20 and Pathfinder.
Then add it straight back in. :)
Originally, in 3e, Knowledge(local) was intended for a specific area. So, if you lived in the Dales of FR, you might put ranks in Knowledge(Shadowdale). I don't know at what point that changed or was simply abandoned.
As a tangent, I think Perform originally allowed you take take up a different "instrument" for each rank (or x ranks) you put into the skill.
-Skeld
I played two games just as this was happening (along with a lot of other know-related hilarities). I think it was about 2002 or so. Definitely before 3.5, but firmly within 3.0.
Also, in this skill rework, perform would fall into competence, would have much broader categories, but I've no clue how to handle the whole sing=talk>anything that requires instruments as far as bards go. Better replacement skills, maybe? I don't know...