Yeah. Snake Style specifically says you can take it as your AC OR Touch AC, and Crane Wing's FAQ states that if you deflect a touch attack (ex: Shocking Grasp) it doesn't go off.
So I'd consider that pretty solid proof.
Yeah. Snake Style specifically says you can take it as your AC OR Touch AC, and Crane Wing's FAQ states that if you deflect a touch attack (ex: Shocking Grasp) it doesn't go off.
So I'd consider that pretty solid proof.
Haven't seen that FAQ, can you link it?
Snake Style explicitely works. Crane Wing only blocks weapon attacks, so a touch attack e.g. from Shocking Grasp should not be blockable, unless delvered e.g. with an unarmed strike, natural attack or masus spellstrike, in which case it no longer is a touch attack.
Yeah. Snake Style specifically says you can take it as your AC OR Touch AC, and Crane Wing's FAQ states that if you deflect a touch attack (ex: Shocking Grasp) it doesn't go off.
So I'd consider that pretty solid proof.
Haven't seen that FAQ, can you link it?
Snake Style explicitely works. Crane Wing only blocks weapon attacks, so a touch attack e.g. from Shocking Grasp should not be blockable, unless delvered e.g. with an unarmed strike, natural attack or masus spellstrike, in which case it no longer is a touch attack.
Well, for one, touch attacks are armed attacks, i.e. they are weapon attacks.
Relevant text:
Update 5/29/13: If the attack is deflected, not only does the target take no damage, but any other effects (ability drain, negative levels, harmful conditions, and so on) associated with that attack do not occur. If the deflected attack is a touch spell or other effect that requires "holding the charge," the charge is not expended. For example, if a ghoul's claw attack is deflected, the target is not subject to the ghoul's paralysis ability from the attack. If a shocking grasp touch attack is deflected, the attacker is still "holding the charge." The Crane Wing feat will be updated in a future printing of Ultimate Combat to clarify these issues.
Well if you look up "Weapons" while unarmed Attacks are Weapons, Touch Attacks and Natural Attacks AREN'T on the list of weapons, so techincally they can't be deflected by Crane Style.
In another thread about crane wing it was clarified that it works with natural and unarmed weapons:
If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."
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Well then they better put it in the FAQ because currently the rule says Melee Weapon Attacks can be deflected and the rules differentiate between Melee Weapon Attack and Natural Weapon Attack.
So Sean's post is his opinion but not an official ruling. There is a difference between the them. It wouldn't be the 1st unoffical opinion a designer has expressed on the boards. If he wants to post that it's an Official Ruling or it gets added to the FAQ I'll take it seriously.
There is no contradiction.
Melee weapons encompasses both manufactured weapons and natural attacks/weapons. Mostly because of the fact that "melee" is a term well defined in the English language.
Both are weapons used in melee range. Both are melee weapons.
There is no need for a FAQ because anyone with a strong grasp of the language should know this.
I agree that natural weapons are melee weapons, they are not in the list of weapons because they people would probably assume you can buy them.
I still maintain that a touch attack is not considered a weapon per the rules, the FAQ nonwithstanding. For example, in a full attack you can make one attack per 5 BAB with your melee weapon. You cannot with touch attacks, you only get one per round. Most rules for weapons do
With a natural attack, such as a bite, you only get one attack no matter your BAB.
Ok it seems clear tha snake style works but seems to be some disagremment with crane wings.
Not really, the rules and language used is clear that (a) touch attacks are melee attacks and (b) Crane Wing deflects melee attacks, no exceptions.
The "confusion" is that some feel that if you charge your hand with a shocking grasp, say, it should discharge even on a successful block. A moment of thought will resolve why this isn't so: you do not block the blade of a sword, or the head of an axe, you deflect the shaft, the flat, or the arm swinging them - in the same way, you avoid the "charged" hand and deflect the arm which is not charged, or even the body motion behind it (doable, trust me on this).
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Ok it seems clear tha snake style works but seems to be some disagremment with crane wings.Not really, the rules and language used is clear that (a) touch attacks are melee attacks and (b) Crane Wing deflects melee attacks, no exceptions.
This is why Crane Wing/Deflect Arrows/Missle Shield are pretty much one of the most powerful feats in the game. These simply say "NO". Powerful Charge, Bombs, Firearm shots, touch attacks, and the like can not get through if they only have a single attack.
Now if you have some AC to back it up, it can make a difficult time for any attackers to get through, but then again remember that there is a person behind the enemies. So if there is enough intellect behind the creature, avoidance can be made.
This is why Crane Wing/Deflect Arrows/Missle Shield are pretty much one of the most powerful feats in the game. These simply say "NO". Powerful Charge, Bombs, Firearm shots, touch attacks, and the like can not get through if they only have a single attack.
Now if you have some AC to back it up, it can make a difficult time for any attackers to get through, but then again remember that there is a person behind the enemies. So if there is enough intellect behind the creature, avoidance can be made.
Which is why Crane Wing, Deflect Arrows, and Missile Shield are all locked behind Feat, BaB, and/or Skill Rank prerequisites, of a fairly hefty nature.
Not really, the rules and language used is clear that (a) touch attacks are melee attacks and (b) Crane Wing deflects melee attacks, no exceptions.
Well, no, actually. Crane Wing blocks Melee WEAPON attacks, and whether touch attacks are weapon attacks is disputed, what Nicos referred to.
But I'm happy for you that you had a nice moment of thought.
I do not think deflect arrow a missile shield are on the same level power of crane wings.
Nah, but they also have easier prereqs to meet (I think, not sure about Missile Shield).
It all evens out. =)