Alright. I tried to find my answer, and it seems to be vague at best. So, here we go:
I want to take a Ring of Sustenance and upgrade it later to add the +1 Ring of Protection ability to it. From my understanding there's debate on whether you can modify specifically named items. That's fine. Since that's not really clear (or if it's been clarified, let me know), I'd like to get to the meat of my question, and assume I crafted this ring.
So, this Ring of Sustenance costs 2500, and then I add protection +1, which 2000*1.5=3000gp, for a total of 5500gp. This gives me a Ring of Sustenance & Protection +1. I then later decide to upgrade the Protection ability on it to +2. Do I then have to pay 50% additional for that upgrade? Is upgrading from +1 to +2 considered a "separate ability" for the magic item upgrade clause?
Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
Thanks!
I would expect that you would have to pay the +50% cost just as you would if you went whole hog and added a +2 ability to the ring of sustenance in the first place. The protection ability is the add-on to the ring of sustenance - no matter what level of protection you set it to. Upgrading that add-on should invoke the add-on premium cost.
I would say yes. Granted I can't answer the question about named magical items getting upgrades, ur math is spot on.
Take the example of the vorpal sword in the qoute. Its already a +1 magic item, and the example shows it getting yet another +1 and vorpal. In the qoute it states additional abilities and shows one that's getting yet another modifier of one its already got AND another ability. So from the wording I would say adding yet another +1, u would have to pay cost plus 50%.
If you start with a Ring of Sustenance and add the Protection +1, +2, +3 etc., then you would have to pay 3,000gp for the +1, 9,000gp more for the +2, 15,000gp more for +3, etc. So it would be rather expensive.
The more efficient way to do it would be to go get a Ring of Protection +1 for 2,000gp and add the Ring of Sustenance to it for 3,750gp more. It is more expensive at first, but less expensive as it would only cost 6,000gp more for +2 and 10,000gp more for +3, etc.
Some DM's will just make you pay 50% of the cheapest item combined together but you can see how on an item like this that can change as you continue to improve the item. The rules actually say that the original item is normal cost and anything added to it is 50% more which is how I have always run it.
I hope that makes sense!
PS Regarding the specifically named items, that is only talking about specific types of arms and armor, like Frost Brand, Holy Avenger, Celestial Armor, and Demon Armor. A Ring of Sustenance is just a wondrous item and does not fall into that debate.
Alright. I tried to find my answer, and it seems to be vague at best. So, here we go:
I want to take a Ring of Sustenance and upgrade it later to add the +1 Ring of Protection ability to it. From my understanding there's debate on whether you can modify specifically named items. That's fine. Since that's not really clear (or if it's been clarified, let me know), I'd like to get to the meat of my question, and assume I crafted this ring.
So, this Ring of Sustenance costs 2500, and then I add protection +1, which 2000*1.5=3000gp, for a total of 5500gp. This gives me a Ring of Sustenance & Protection +1. I then later decide to upgrade the Protection ability on it to +2. Do I then have to pay 50% additional for that upgrade? Is upgrading from +1 to +2 considered a "separate ability" for the magic item upgrade clause?
Thanks!Sometimes, lack of funds or time make it impossible for a magic item crafter to create the desired item from scratch. Fortunately, it is possible to enhance or build upon an existing magic item. Only time, gold, and the various prerequisites required of the new ability to be added to the magic item restrict the type of additional powers one can place.
The cost to add additional abilities to an item is the same as if the item was not magical, less the value of the original item. Thus, a +1 longsword can be made into a +2 vorpal longsword, with the cost to create it being equal to that of a +2 vorpal sword minus the cost of a +1 longsword.
If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.
The cost for enchanting a ring of sustenance to a ring of prot+1 and then to a ring of prot+2 should be the same as enchanting it straight to a ring of prot+2. Basically, you have a ring as is, everything added costs +50%. Yes, that means that it is cheaper to make a new ring of protection and add Sustenance to it, since Protection is way more expensive, and if it was originally a ring of prot+1, upgrading it to +2 or +3 does not cost +50%.
Personally, I'd allow the spellcaster to choose which enchantment gets the +50%, but that is a houserule. Per RAW, the first enchantment costs +0%, the rest +50%.
Thank you all. This is most helpful!
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Er, the order of enchanting the ring shouldn't matter. You should take the current most expensive effect, and use that to set the base. Then add 50% to the cheaper effect.
So ring of sustenance is 2500gp
Ring of defelection +1 is 2000gp
+2 is 8000gp.
So a ring that does sustenance and +1 deflection is 2500+1.5*2000=5500gp
Sustenance and +2 is 8000+1.5*2500=11750 gp, so 6250gp to upgrade.
After that the deflection will always be the more expensive effect so it sets the base cost. Notice that the cheaper effect switched as you upgraded the other one. That's ok, it's still more expensive than just having two rings.
Er, the order of enchanting the ring shouldn't matter. You should take the current most expensive effect, and use that to set the base. Then add 50% to the cheaper effect.
So ring of sustenance is 2500gp
Ring of defelection +1 is 2000gp
+2 is 8000gp.So a ring that does sustenance and +1 deflection is 2500+1.5*2000=5500gp
Sustenance and +2 is 8000+1.5*2500=11750 gp, so 6250gp to upgrade.After that the deflection will always be the more expensive effect so it sets the base cost. Notice that the cheaper effect switched as you upgraded the other one. That's ok, it's still more expensive than just having two rings.
It can be done that way, but that is not how it is written in the rules or even the example that is given. There is no add 50% to the cheaper item rule, it is add 50% to all of the additional items added. You are free to rule it the former way but that is not RAW if you care about that kind of thing.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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It can be done that way, but that is not how it is written in the rules or even the example that is given. There is no add 50% to the cheaper item rule, it is add 50% to all of the additional items added. You are free to rule it the former way but that is not RAW if you care about that kind of thing.
Huh apparently I've been doing it wrong for a long time now. You are in fact correct. I still maintain that my way is better and makes more sense; heck, the +2 and invisibility example in the book would be cheaper just to make a new ring with invisibility first, then add +2 deflection to it, then sell your old +2 ring. That would have a net cost of 28000gp, while just adding invisibility to a existing ring has a cost of 30000gp. Bizarre. In fact, in most situations I wouldn't be suprised if it's more cost effective to make a new item with the most expensive ability first, and sell your old item, rather than add a more expensive ability after creation.
I had just assumed that magic item creation, like most things in Pathfinder, should be "order of operations" neutral.
I agree with you ryric and I would rather craft or have crafted a new item with the lesser cost.
I think that it would be great to be order of operation neutral like you said, but the difficulty comes into play where a +1 ring is cheaper than a Ring of Sustenance, but anything +2 or higher is more expensive, so it may require extra bookkeeping to keep it straight. If I was just going to combine Boots of Elvinkind and Boots of Speed, they are both static, so the calculations would be easier. The issue comes with items that have various levels that increase in cost as you go up to the next level.
Still, I would have no issue allowing the "cheapest" item to be the +50% and in this case I would recommend the player make the Ring of Sustenance the add-on item and the Ring of Protection the "base" item from the start as you know you will want to increase the bonuses on the protection side as you go.