Goblin Squad Member
|
</sleep>
busy weekend, I have been out of touch.
Hobs, looking for a label: Concierge vs manger
Being: Efficiency -- in chemistry, the best efficiency is at equilibrium, where nothing happens but cost is nothing. Life is a very non-equilibrium and not very efficient process.
Real RP can not happen, because a computer mediated system is not yet human.
Still there are many roles to play in GW.
Lam <sleep>
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Being,
Not at all. Your ideas here are great. What avari3 has suggested sounds great. Urman's ideas sound great. These are all ways in which RP can be integrated into the game. All I was suggesting with this thread is that the people who enjoy and are good at any of those sorts of activities/roles you suggest (and others)should be identified in their various groups, and in that many of these and other RP activities require coordination between players, that they network with others with the same interest and skills. Everything mentioned thus far would still benefit from those types of players coming to the fore, being supported in their endeavors by their various groups, and collaborating with others (including those outside their groups)who do the same.
Put another way, I was describing the need for a big picture in RP...a community wide support and networking of those who create and "manage" RP activities. You, avari3, Urman, etc. are detailing particular roles/activities and possible game mechanics to support them within the kind of overarching umbrella I suggested.
Let me clarify...I'm not suggesting that only these people be the ones who create RP opportunities. Anyone who puts some kind of RP into motion, from as small as simply RPing spontaneously in a town with everyone they meet, to as large as a shard wide market day, can help create and thereby promote RP. However, my experience in other sandbox MMOs is that without the concerted efforts of such dedicated RPers, supported by groups with the resources to make things happen, very little actually happens. Many players are too busy with the regular nuts and bolts of the game, don't feel confident about doing so (e.g. no experience, lack of ideas, lack of contacts, etc.), or aren't RPers to begin with (but with the right examples and opportunities, would be willing converts). Often, I saw whole guilds that were interested in participating in RP activities, but had nothing going on in their guilds because no one took the bull by the horns and put things in motion. Far too often, members were expecting their guild leadership to "entertain them", but leadership, bombarded with tells and e-mail and guild bureaucracy/drama/etc, hardly had time to play the game themselves, let alone create RP opportunities for their people. They needed someone who had the time, interest, and ability to work behind all the regular game activity scenes to be do it for them. Most often, those people were members within those guilds. Whether they had an official title, important rank, etc. didn't really matter, so long as they were good at what they did and had the support of their guilds to do it. Sometimes, however, these people were trusted individuals outside the guild in question, who simply provided RP opportunities for the love of doing so.
I see absolutely no problem integrating a large chunk of this into actual game mechanics and roles as you and other posters have suggested. However, trying always to be a proponent for inclusion, this doesn't need to be the only way RP is provided and promoted. True, if RP elements are integrated into the game mechanics - if it is "institutionalized" so to speak - it may be more successful in terms of spreading one form of RP to a wider portion of the player base, but I would hate to lose the other forms of player generated RP. Even one creative individual can produce RP opportunities potentially more creative, unique, and personalized than any game mechanic/role can provide...and that's not a plug for myself...that's a plug for all the really good RPers I know will be drawn to this kind of game and who I hope will lend their talents to pushing PFO to levels of fun that go beyond what the developers can design.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm grateful that the idea of furnishing game infrastructure to support RP is at least interesting. Ryan will probably not go for it I fear, since they do not want to build anything the players can do themselves.
Still, until we adequately describe a system and its parts we will be unable to distinguish between what is do-able by the players and what would be best built into the game.
Organizing a player organization into functional divisions and providing for them is clearly something players can and probably should do, but providing a flexible budgeting system for the organization leadership to apportion assets, expenses, and collect revenue would be a great boon. If my treasury increases in direct proportion to the growth of my team I am encouraged to promote the interests of my team and discouraged from acting in a way contrary to the design's intent.
Bond/Escrow systems especially should be systemic. Taxation should be systemic. hierarchy of shares should be systemic and all these should have a control interface.
Diplomatic immunity should be awardable and systemic so the envoy is not cut down by the NPCs as he approaches to parley.
This all may well be wide of this thread's intended objective however.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
</sleep>
busy weekend, I have been out of touch.Hobs, looking for a label: Concierge vs manger
Being: Efficiency -- in chemistry, the best efficiency is at equilibrium, where nothing happens but cost is nothing. Life is a very non-equilibrium and not very efficient process.
In the presence of truth I cannot think.
Real RP can not happen, because a computer mediated system is not yet human.
The game system cannot RP but can provide support for RP. The game system will provide factions as a step in RP-supporting infrastructure. The game will afford alignment and reputation as RP infrastructure.
Asking the game to similarly provide a player organization UI is not asking the game to RP for us, it is requesting organization management tools. Being able to adjust tax rates, tariffs, define divisions and set salaries for flexibly definable roles, permitting the leadership to award in-game titles that are resistant to impersonation, providing for escrow accounts and contractual bonds... these are not RP they are tools to enable and encourage player-character RP.
It would be good for the game for new characters to be met by representatives of core alignment-compatible settlements seeking to recruit them, welcoming them, and rewarding them for joining. To assure that the new player doesn't game the system then to gain the rewards (e.g. basic gear, coin) the new character should affirm an agreement that works like a contract, so that those who would then accept yet another recruiter's offer they would incur whatever negative rep hit for breaking a contract. And there should always be a reward for successful recruitment for the settlement and for those that settlement designates.
I think these RP infrastructure and player organization UI elements would be beneficial to the game itself and we players who populate it.
The benefits should easily outweigh the costs.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Hobs ~ The fact we are here from day one of a closed beta that will last a long time gives us a very unique opportunity to do something special. What I am proposing is for the RP community to enter this game with a different set of meta game goals than the failed strategies of the past. By failed strategies I mean a sheepish surrender of the actual in-game events that matter AS PER the game design. Like the famous saying around here goes, "think like a wolf" and what that means here is the RP community actively seeking to empower themselves within the game and use that power base to foment RP.
If you tell the RP community the same thing as always; "hey that's cool, we can just stand over here and do our RP", that's exactly what many of them will do. That's where the isolation and disassociation from in game events begins. It creates a magnetic force that pulls the RP community into the exact goofy-little-quasi-Shakesperean pockets that the rest of the gaming community abhors and griefs and truth be told it's hard to blame them.
I believe and propose, that it's time for MMO RP to graduate into something better.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
the exact goofy-little-quasi-Shakesperean pockets that the rest of the gaming community abhors and griefs and truth be told it's hard to blame them
As Lord Blackadder once said:
"It's only a short step from `tush' to `hey nonny nonny'; and then, I'm afraid, I'll shall have to call the police."
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
avari3,
I get what you're saying and have said as much higher up the thread. I see plenty of opportunity for larger scale, what I called "institutionalized" RP elements and roles such as you suggest. I also don't see where I've suggested that RP be done in huddled little groups away from the rest of the public or that they should or need to disassociate themselves from the rest of the game.
My contention is that you seem to be saying that if people RP other than how you are suggesting, then they're either not doing it correctly or that they'll ruin RP completely...that it's even understandable for people to abhor and grief them. If that is truly your stance, we will not come to an agreement on this point. What you propose is a fine way to RP, perhaps better for the game on the large scale, but it's not the only way, nor should other styles be abhorred or griefed simply because they are not your style. That would smack too much of one player trying to dictate to another how they should enjoy the game, especially if their methods add to the enjoyment of others.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Where was there any statement or motion toward making institutional RP the only kind of RP? I don't see that in the idea avari3 was bringing forward.
My impression is that the convention of role play should be integrated into the game design somehow in order for it to survive the devastation of war and provide a bulwark against the pressure some will assert that might otherwise press role playing into the fringes of the game's culture instead of central to the core and pervading the daily game's life.
There is a perception among the general gaming populace that role play is not 'manly'. It is disrespected by many. If a PvP war wreaks devastation and the areas around the starting areas become dominated by the non-rp playerbase then that other culture that has no place for RP and holds it in contempt will essentially own the culture new players are introduced to when they enter PFO.
I don't think that would be a desirable state for us or for the game. PFO would slide precipitously toward all those other games that are less meaningful. RP might well survive among us, but more and more we would grow badly outnumbered by players who think us odd or quaint.
But if RP is ingrained in the game itself in critical ways, if RP is provided for in the political and military structures if not the crafting and economic ecology itself then we, the ancients-of-days, can be assured that those coming in will find our legacy still working to knit the whole fabric of the game together interlaced with roles that encourage our style of play.
But that wasn't intended to supplant real interactive roleplay creativity whether impromptu or intricately planned.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Passing over commenting on the above discussion, but I would very much like to see and encourage a vibrant and active roleplaying community on PFO and will be doing what I can to see that. I can't speak for the others of the Empyrean but I do believe there are numerous with an interest in it on numerous levels.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Absolutely Being! That is exactly the failure of Roleplay in every MMO. This failure belongs to the RP community at a meta game organizational level. Instead of being self critical of this colossal failure of allowing ourselves to be marginalized to the fringes, we spend all of our energies bickering over the finer points of the setting's canon.
Again, this is not about shunning any type of RP, it's about organizing ourselves in a different manner with a different set of defined goals this time. Why? Specifically because we want a BETTER environment for our goofy little quasi Shakesperean RP wedding.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Aleron, thanks for grasping the intent of the thread. Please add me to your contact list, as I've added you to mine. This is exactly the sort of networking Hobs intended with this thread, and it's great to have a pre-contact contact, so to speak.
*****
General comment: If this thread is to be about MANY different approaches to RP, then might I suggest avoiding the use of absolutes, pejoratives and one-size-fits-all edicts in the discussion? This is not conducive to persuasive or collaborative discussion, and I'd hate to see both a useful and benevolent initiative (RP contact network) and an interesting and useful brainstorming session (integrating RP more fully into the game) miss out on a wide range of player opinions because the language used can read as hectoring and exclusive.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I apologize if the way I say things can be construed as hectoring or abusive. I had no such intent if you were addressing any of my posts Deianira, excepting where I was mistakenly taking offense against a misconception I held momentarily. I tend to fill my sentences only with my own meanings and those meanings must block out alternative interpretations I guess.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Everything I am accusing the Roleplay community of having done wrong I am 100% guilty of myself. If it comes off as insulting I include myself in the insult. Hectoring is an unfair claim, I am presenting a challenge to the RP community and the case cannot be made without starting at square one which is admitting our failures as a community in past games. This is not bullying, all the opposite, it's a plea. I am practically begging for us to take a step back, right here on square one, and look at how we can do things differently.
I believe that in a sandbox video game the "winners" are the ones that are able to shape the virtual world into the game they want to play. That is where we have "lost" and here we are waiting for PFO as our next "last great hope". Isn't that why we are all hear snooping a message board for a game 1+ years away?
Sorry to Hobs if it feels as if the thread has been hijacked but this is where it starts, right? The official forming of our community. The goals have to be set before the organization is made, right?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
avari3 and Being,
I have a sneaking suspicion that if we chatted on TS for 10 minutes, we'd find that we agree with one another.
I look forward to working with both of you towards the goal of making RP as much a cornerstone of PFO as PvP, settlement building, or any other hallmark of the game.
Hobs
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Passing over commenting on the above discussion, but I would very much like to see and encourage a vibrant and active roleplaying community on PFO and will be doing what I can to see that. I can't speak for the others of the Empyrean but I do believe there are numerous with an interest in it on numerous levels.
Your interest and enthusiasm is heartening. I would be happy to work with TEO in any RP initiative. I know members like your Life Dragn and Ixiolander will have great ideas to flesh out once we get a game to flesh them out in.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
First, my apology if by resurrecting this old thread back to life, I upset the necro-posting police. I'll wear my heinous cap and sit in the corner when I'm finished writing.
Oddly enough, the last activity on here was avari3 agreeing to meet on Team Speak and discuss this thread. We did that very thing just last night. A month late, but hey.
Remember back when I said that this wasn't going to be a request for names and volunteers like the "Guide Program" and "Playing Extras" threads? Well...now it is. I'm looking for names of people who feel comfortable representing their company/settlement/etc., as Event & RP managers...or at least to discuss the possible benefits of having such. Once these people are known, we'll announce the day, time, and location for a meeting.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
... the necro-posting police.
We ran them off with pitchforks and torches...
Also, I've listed this in the Unofficial Guide Program portion of Guild Recruitment & Helpful Links (Nihimonicon).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
<waves>. Put me down as one of the Paxians to talk to. Real Life has been taking a heavy toll lately and I have vacation coming up at long last so I'm not sure of my availability right now. But things should clear up soon and I will have more time. (Dear gods, I HOPE they clear up soon!)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
When T7V first started, one of the brainstorm ideas we had was hosting forum-based RP events. I don't know what those would look like, but I got the impression that's the general kind of thing Avari might have been thinking of. If something comes to mind, I think you've got a few regular posters who would be happy to participate.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
When T7V first started, one of the brainstorm ideas we had was hosting forum-based RP events. I don't know what those would look like, but I got the impression that's the general kind of thing Avari might have been thinking of. If something comes to mind, I think you've got a few regular posters who would be happy to participate.
I have been working with Pax for some time with a number of forum RP activities that could certainly be extended to anyone with an interest, either on Pax's public forums or that of other groups. Feel free to participate, copy, steal, etc.
Two Person Thread Adventure (2PTA for short)
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Do we have quorum for this? If we have a half dozen of the larger CC's represented I'd say let's go ahead and meet.
A quick run down of who we have (in no particular order):
Avari3 (T7V)
Cyneric (Maelstrom)
Deianera (Pax)
Lifedragn (TEO)
Khas (Pax)
Hobs (as himself)
Before we set up a time to get to know one another better and begin to kick around ideas, I'd like to hear from more representatives of the groups I know are out there, unless they have no interest. UNC? Golgotha? Keepers of the Circle? Bueller?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
To throw one more "tool" out there for RP event ideas, the link below leads to a list of 10 event templates I made a while back. I've posted this before (somewhere) but it seemed like a good time to toss them out again, as I'd love to see others write similar templates for community consumption.
These are "How to" tips for various RP events (some are public events, like a public market, and some are more storyline in nature). One of the reasons some people are hesitant to run an event is the lack of experience. These provide some of the managerial considerations to make event planning a little easier.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Aleron,
Not a problem. These "managers" (I'm open to any other term) would be the contact person for those outside their own guild, should another guild or individual wish to work with that guild for RP purposes. Having more than one is likely a good thing (covers a wider breadth of time during the day and in-game, allows for more than one person to take messages and attend meetings, spreads out the work and the fun, etc.).
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Do we have quorum for this? If we have a half dozen of the larger CC's represented I'd say let's go ahead and meet.Still interested in moving this along, Sir?
Yes of course! Sorry I wasn't able to get in on the RP tavern. I have been mad busy lately and that thread got very long, very quickly!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes of course! Sorry I wasn't able to get in on the RP tavern. I have been mad busy lately and that thread got very long, very quickly!Do we have quorum for this? If we have a half dozen of the larger CC's represented I'd say let's go ahead and meet.Still interested in moving this along, Sir?
Heh. I started the thread - it was something we'd kicked around in the Pax forums - and then promptly went off to Sicily for a three-week vacation, with spotty internet connections, and haven't participated since. I'll give it a jump-start over the next few days and we can both remedy our nonparticipation, hmm?
For a meeting, I'll be available Thursday or Friday evening from about 6 pm EST, and anytime on Sunday.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Yes of course! Sorry I wasn't able to get in on the RP tavern. I have been mad busy lately and that thread got very long, very quickly!Do we have quorum for this? If we have a half dozen of the larger CC's represented I'd say let's go ahead and meet.Still interested in moving this along, Sir?Heh. I started the thread - it was something we'd kicked around in the Pax forums - and then promptly went off to Sicily for a three-week vacation, with spotty internet connections, and haven't participated since. I'll give it a jump-start over the next few days and we can both remedy our nonparticipation, hmm?
For a meeting, I'll be available Thursday or Friday evening from about 6 pm EST, and anytime on Sunday.
Those times for Thursdays or Fridays are good for me as well. Sundays after 6pm are doubtful.