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Ok so here's the deal I'm starting a new campaign and my party really wants me to play paladin .. I want to be a classic sword and board pally you know the tank in the middle of the fight defending his allies and such.. But every guide I see tells me it's crap .. First off any advice building this? I have a 15 point buy an plan to be human ..was also thinking maybe flail would help to try and be more of a controller type tank?.... And secondly why would pathfinder be so hard on classic pallies? It feels like they just don't want you to play this type of pally it's like making a ranger not good at archery? I don't get it
That can be quite difficult.
Simply wielding a sword and using a shield is fine. The issue is that if you want to bash with the shield (which can be pretty effective) you need the two weapon fighting feats. This means your paladin needs: str, dex, con, cha, all on a 15 buy.
There are also a ton of shield feats, quite a lot of them good. It can be difficult for a Pally to muster the feats for offense and defense simultaneously.
That said if you sword and board, you will very difficult to hurt (combined with lay on hands) and when your smiting, no one can ignore you even if your wielding a wet noodle.
I would recommend only getting two weapon fighting, and then totally focusing on shield feats. Don't try to build to higher tier two weapon fighting feats.
Improved shield bash <-- need to have if you want to be bashing people
Shield Master eventually
Shield slam if you like the idea of pushing enemies around.
Missile shield
Shield Focus
What level will you be? What other character types are in your party?
I had a mobile fighter that was a lot of fun to play. He was using spring attack and had a high AC due to shield focus and greater shield focus
My favorite sword and board trick is the quickdraw feat along with quickdraw light shields. On your turn you stow the shield, switch the grip on your weapon to two-handed and attack, switch back to one handed, then draw your shield again. All of these (except the attack of course) are free actions. You get the offensive benefits of two-handed fighting on your turn, and improved ac on the enemies' turns.
Here's a guide thread that I just came across:
There were some nice paladin guides there might inspire you
Actually, you only need two-weapon fighting IF you want to attack twice in each round. You can attack with the sword OR with the shield without incurring TWF penalties; you just can't use both in the same round. The TWF "requirement" is really about pure damage output, the mentality that says if you're not wielding a two-handed weapon, then you "must" do TWF to make up for it. If you're not a "maximum DPR" player or group, that's not an issue.
If you want to attack with the shield, ever, you'll definitely want Improved Shield Bash. That lets you do a shield bash and retain the shield bonus for your armor class.
For damage purposes, pick up Power Attack. You can apply the damage bonus to any melee attack, including your shield bash.
In addition to the "utility" shield feats that have already been mentioned, there are some fun shield feats like Saving Shield (grant an ally your shield bonus) and Covering Defense (use your shield to grant an ally cover) that could really fit the paladin mentality. You might also look at the Equipment Trick (Shield) feats to see if you like any of those.
There is also the Sacred Shield archetype for paladins, which might have some interesting features: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/paladin.h tml.
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It’s not crap at all. Look, just don’t worry about DPR unless you are Smiting. Take some Channel feats like Selective Channeling. Don’t try and use your shield as a weapon, it’s not very effective and slightly cheesy. Get a suit of FP, a heavy shield, Toughness is OK. Don’t specialize in any one weapon, just let the DM/randomness happen and grab the best one handed weapon you can get.
There’s a Trait from Sandpoint you can take which gives you an extra HP whenever you get magical healing. Get it. (Sandpoint faithful?)
Pts?
Str 12
Dex 10
Con12
Int10
Wis10
Cha 16+2
Or
Str 14
Dex10
Con 14
Int10
Wis10
Cha 14
I like the Hospitaler archetype.
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Some ideas:
- Channel Smite is a great way to increase your damage against certain enemies.
- Pick up Improved Shield Bash and Shield Slam. You can mix Bull Rush attacks into your regular rotation and Bull Rush is a good battlefield control option. You use your attack roll instead of your CMB check and you can potentially push several opponents away or knock them down off one hit.
- Unsanctioned Knowledge can greatly enhance your versatility, but it's more a bonus. I really like this ability. Some people feel they get plenty to work with off the Paladin spell list alone.
- Your core class auras are very effective. Think heavily before you trade any of them out by using an archetype.
- If you can only get 3 skills (human+class+10 Int) I suggest Sense Motive, Use Magic Device (pick it up as a trait) and Spellcraft or Kn:Religion.
- The Mount is cool. I prefer the weapon bond. You can enhance your weapon as needed, and it goes into places you do.
- With UMD you can enlarge yourself and use lead blades to significantly scale your damage. It couples well with a bastard sword.
- Power Attack is not as amazing with a one-handed weapon. It's still good, but the loss in accuracy about evens out with the increase in damage.
Actually, you only need two-weapon fighting IF you want to attack twice in each round. You can attack with the sword OR with the shield without incurring TWF penalties; you just can't use both in the same round. The TWF "requirement" is really about pure damage output, the mentality that says if you're not wielding a two-handed weapon, then you "must" do TWF to make up for it. If you're not a "maximum DPR" player or group, that's not an issue.
Here is a fairly low cost way of keeping up DPR without using all this feat starved TWF and shield bashing business.
First, you'll need an SLA. While racial ones tend to work best, you can do fine with one from a trait since paladins are casters (maybe pick up magical knack too just to keep your CL close your your character level).
Then take arcane strike. Use it whenever you do not use your swift action for lay on hands.
Really, the main drawback of using a sword one handed is because you do not get 1.5x power attack damage, since the scaling static bonus it provides is a main source of nonsmite damage. Arcane strike should help shore up the loss of damage. Add in your plan to play a battlefield control type character as well, and you will do fine.
What is an sla?
As it has been said, it is a spell-like ability. While the ones provided by traits are usually just a bit of flavor, they gained some significance due to this FAQ about Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites.
Basically, a spell-like ability makes you count as a caster able to cast up to that spell's level (an arcane one if it is a spell on an arcane caster's spell list). The problem with most trait based SLA's is that they only have "the highest caster level obtained, or caster level 1 if you have none." Since arcane strike relies upon caster level, this usually makes them useless. But paladins are casters in their own right, so it does eventually scale.
You'll need to decide whether you want a heavy shield or a light shield. A heavy shield will give you one more AC (and if you bash with it, a bigger die); however, with a light shield you can temporarily hold your weapon to free your hand for spellcasting or Lay on Hands. If you choose to use a heavy shield, you'll need a weapon cord to allow you to drop your weapon for those purposes, and then you'll need to spend a swift action to recover your weapon.
Paladins have a LOT of uses for swift actions. Lay on Hands to themselves, activating smites, and many of their best spells are all swift actions, and especially if you plan to tank, you'll want LoH. I'd conserve my swift actions as much as possible, by either using ONLY a heavy shield as my weapon (with two hands for strength and a half since it's one handed) or using a light shield. I also wouldn't use Arcane Strike -- that's a trait and a feat, to be able to spend my very valuable swift actions for just a few extra points of damage.
I'd have a bonded mount instead of a bonded weapon. My mount would take Combat Reflexes and Bodyguard, and then possibly Stand Still, further helping to defend me (and my party). It would have Benevolent armor (to give 2+enhancement bonus using Bodyguard) and a menacing amulet (for +4 to hit for flankers). Since my mount and I would always threaten opponents together, I'd suggest to the rogue that they might want Gang Up, which would make getting flank trivial while allowing them to stand next to you and benefit from Bodyguard, as well as being in range of your Lay on Hands.
You mentioned using a flail to be a controller type, and I think that's a pretty good idea. Remember that the bonus to-hit from smiting will carry over into your combat maneuver attempts. Also remember that your mount, if you have one, can aid another for another +2. Since you'll need Int 13 and Combat Expertise for Improved Trip anyhow, you may as well also take Gang Up and get the +4 flanking bonus anytime anyone besides you and your mount are threatening. (Outflank would increase that to +6, but it's a teamwork feat and the earliest your party rogue could take it would be 7th level, and the earliest your mount could take it would be 8th level, so it wouldn't do you much good for a couple levels... so maybe not worth it.)
(you)-------------- (mount)
H Combat Expertise
1 Improved Trip
3 Gang Up
4 ----------------- Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard
5 Outflank?
7 Greater Trip
8 ----------------- Outflank or Stand Still?
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I'd have a bonded mount instead of a bonded weapon.
If you choose to do this, play a small race, or pick up a feature (shield enchantment if I recall correctly...) that allows you to turn your mount into heraldry and back again. No matter how you work it, you need to be able to take your mount through the same size spaces as your party can fit through and fight in. Otherwise you have invested a lot in a class feature that is only occasionally available. Particularly when compared to a Divine Bond weapon which goes with you everywhere and enhances even on top of existing enchantments.
With horses, it's not really the size that's the problem. Even a relatively tall person on a big horse will fit into most dungeons. (Horse and rider fit under a 10' ceiling comfortably, and the horse only has to squeeze if the halls are 5' wide. You'll run into a few places where medium PCs have to squeeze, and the horse can't go there... but they're usually pretty rare and pretty temporary.)
The problem is cliffs, steps, and those sorts of obstacles that a horse isn't nimble enough to manage on its own. There's a few ways to manage this, though -- you start out with a limited ability to call your mount to your side. That's limited to once a day, so that's kind of limited. The hosteling armor is a relatively cheap flat-price, so that's very useful. There's also the feat Unsanctioned Knowledge, which allows you to add a few spells to your paladin spell-list -- including Alter Self, which would let you turn your mount into a humanoid, temporarily, since you can Share Spells. (This is funny AND useful; it a weapon, and it still has a pretty decent chance at making the AC 10 to aid another, even if it's not proficient.) You have both a sorcerer and a witch in your party, so one of them can use a scroll of Fly, and in a few levels probably just cast it. (And let me tell you, charging in on a flying horse is pretty fun!)
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With horses, it's not really the size that's the problem. Even a relatively tall person on a big horse will fit into most dungeons. (Horse and rider fit under a 10' ceiling comfortably, and the horse only has to squeeze if the halls are 5' wide. You'll run into a few places where medium PCs have to squeeze, and the horse can't go there... but they're usually pretty rare and pretty temporary.)
The problem is cliffs, steps, and those sorts of obstacles that a horse isn't nimble enough to manage on its own. There's a few ways to manage this, though -- you start out with a limited ability to call your mount to your side. That's limited to once a day, so that's kind of limited. The hosteling armor is a relatively cheap flat-price, so that's very useful. There's also the feat Unsanctioned Knowledge, which allows you to add a few spells to your paladin spell-list -- including Alter Self, which would let you turn your mount into a humanoid, temporarily, since you can Share Spells. (This is funny AND useful; it a weapon, and it still has a pretty decent chance at making the AC 10 to aid another, even if it's not proficient.) You have both a sorcerer and a witch in your party, so one of them can use a scroll of Fly, and in a few levels probably just cast it. (And let me tell you, charging in on a flying horse is pretty fun!)
Ceilings were not my concern. The 5' wide corridors and such are. Alter Self sharing with a mount is a great use of share spells, and you are right, it is hilarious. However, Alter Self is not on the Paladin Spell List. You can get it via Unsanctioned Knowledge from the Bard spell list as a level 2 spell. Which means Level 7 if you have a Charisma bonus. (You do have a bonus to Cha, right? I mean...you are playing a Paladin...) This would be the only L2 spell you can cast per day at that time, and the duration is very poor. So, in effect, it is a one trick option that rules out your level 2 spell choices for a few levels. I consider this one of the worst pathways towards using a mount, but your mileage may vary.
I am not sure why threemilechild considers it a weapon, since you now have a medium or small humanoid without equipment, but Aid Another can allow it to become a very minor buff for you. All in all, it is still a serious detriment to having all of your abilities available at all times. Just to overcome the drawbacks you have to invest heavily in an enchantment, or a precious feat, which Paladins do not get many of. Using Dive Bond(weapon) doesn't require any extra investment at all.
However - Flying mounts are fun. Even if they aren't useful as often as a customizable weapon enchantment is.
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Don't bother with UMD, you have the Cha but not the points nor the action economy to waste rounds casting. As a sword and shield guy, you have to get in fast and tank. There is plenty of good advice in this thread, but they are not necessarily what you want, you are asking for a guy who defends with his shield and hits with his sword.
Go with standard Iomedae Paladin, longsword and shield. Take the bonded weapon. The mounts are useless in most games unless you want a weird gnome sitting on a donkey or whatever the current trend is. The slightly lower damage for using a one-handed weapon will be tolerable if you are smiting evildoers.
The shield fighting feats are really intensive and not worth the investment, two weapon attack, shield bash, they are all just a hassle. Don't bother, and live with the lower damage. Go with the better Paladin feats, the channeling line and the Power attack stuff. If you are using a scimitar instead of a longsword you can go into the critical feats.
Ignore the Combat Expertise stuff, you won't have the Int for it, and they become useless after mid level. Put magic boosts on your shield and enhancements on your sword and always be the first in. A sword and shield Paladin is absolutely a front line fighter, he is just not very good at dealing damage compared to his two-handed brother. Use that attribute. Get in faces, get Cornugon Smash to intimidate and drive back anyone who comes at you (damage is not needed for this) and play up your teamwork and leadership.
Another good option is be a Mythic Paladin. They have incredible buffs in that new rule set, they are openly intended to be superheroes.
Don't spend half a dozen feats doing something badly. Peculiar feat chains are for fighters, they haven't got anything better to do. You are a Paladin, you have a mission and a duty.
I agree with Captain. I'm using a sword/board pally now. Just enjoy the ac bonus. Use a light shield so you can LoH and cast spells. Consider the Vital Strike chain, especially if you focus on ac. You have the luxury of mobility with your high ac and your single hits are fun.
the problem you're going to run into is your point buy...
if you focus on shield for AC (and ignore TWF) you don't need much Dex (and a pally can get away with less Con than most melees thanks to swift LoH) but you'll still have to split a fairly small number of remaining points between str and cha... your combat contribution (when not smiting) is not going to be that big- just a 1d8 (probably) weapon with 14-16 Str? if something has trouble hitting you, its probably just going to ignore you and charge one of the weaker/easier to hit guys that are doing more damage...
if you do take the TWF route, you'll need at least 15 dex (probably 16 so your 4th level point will be enough to get imp TWF)- even if you use you're racial bonus to get that its still 3-5 points, leaving 10-12 for Cha, Str, and (a little) Con.
either way, 15 points isn't really enough to do this well. if its what you want to play then go for it and just have fun; but, if you're going to play it because your party wants you to, be careful because you might just end up getting frustrated that they convinced you to play something that wasn't as effective as you'd like. (and, i don't think PF is tough on classic paladins, they just require a higher point buy to really be effective- of course, in earlier versions of d&d you couldn't even play a pally unless you had great stats)
there are other options, too... if you want to play a sword-and-board character, a fighter would be (far) more reliant on a healer but could dump Cha for some extra points and has the feats to really pull together TWF; a ranger would have the same drawback, but can get TWF without the Dex requirement, which is helpful, and they have more/better skills; a beast rider cavalier (also healer-reliant) might even be able to just use a shield for defense and fight with a 1hander... just keep your lion/tiger with you at all times to take care of damage (the lower your point buy, the better an animal companion or eidolon is comparatively). if you want to make a melee controller the Lore Warden (fighter) with a few levels of Maneuver Master (monk) mixed in is tough to beat (use a reach weapon for a larger area of control).
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15 pt buy human (or other race with flexible +2) for paladin:
Str 16 (10 pts)
Dex 10
Con 12 (2 pts)
Int 10
Wis 8 (-2 pts)
Cha 16 (5 pts +2 racial)
alternately:
Str 16 (5 pts +2 racial)
Dex 12 (2pts)
Con 13 (3 pts)
Int 10
Wis 8 (-2 pts)
Cha 15 (7 pts)
Finagle it a little as you'd like, such as swapping the dex and con or the str and cha for the 2nd set. I don't recommend dropping Wis to a 7 because having a +0 Will save at 1st level is going to really stink.