In addition to what the mystic gets I've added three abilities. Though this limits the class to Clerics, Oracles, Wizards, and sorcerers.
1st level
Arcane legacy: Mystic Theurge levels count towards the purpose of your bloodline or school powers and bonus spells. Gaining new powers at the appropriate levels. Ex. 5th level wizard/ 3rd level Mystic Theurge gains access to his specialization 8th level power and his powers function as a level 8 wizard. This doesn't allow you to gain access to spells higher then you can cast.
Divine legacy: Mystic Theurge levels count towards the purpose of your domain or mystery powers and bonus spells. Gaining new powers at the appropriate levels. Ex. 5th level cleric/ 3rd level Mystic Theurge gains access to his domains 8th level power and his powers function as a level 8 cleric. This doesn't allow you to gain access to spells higher then you can cast.
10th level
True Synergy: your arcane class levels now count as divine for the purpose of divine legacy class ability, and your divine class levels count as arcane for your arcane legacy class ability. This ability only upgrades powers and does not add new ones so a 5th level Oracle/5th level Sorcerer/10th level Mystic Theurge does not gain access to any new abilities beyond what he has at 15th level Oracle/Sorcerer, but all the abilities he does have are treated his levels as 20th level Oracle/Sorcerer. This does not extend to your spells per day or highest level arcane/divine spells you can cast. Ex.5th level cleric/5th level wizard/10th level Mystic Theurge can only cast spells as a 15th level wizard/cleric.
What do you think? Suggestions?
What if I removed true synergy?
If you want to adjust mystic theurge, the best way to do so would be to change the entry requirements. Mystic Theurge's problem isn't that it's bad, but there prerequisites are crazy steep so any character that qualifies for the PRC is already incompetent at their primary skill set.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you're going this route, zergtitan, I would make it so that at each level of Mystic Theurge, you choose whether you're improving your arcane class features or your divine class features. Both at once is problematic, as LazarX said. And, as Dasrak said, the real problem is the set of entry requirements.
Here's MY fix to the Mystic Theurge:
• The Mystic Theurge is a base class.
• At 1st level, select an arcane spellcasting class and a divine spellcasting class. You gain spell progression for those two classes.
• Get Combined Spells at 5th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, to a maximum of Combined Spells (8th) at 19th level.
• Spell Synthesis 1/day at 10th level, +1/day at 15th&20th.
• No additional class features.
Simple, sweet, no sitting around waiting before getting to play the character you want. Your class features are: having more spells.
@Flak
What would you say for hit die, weapon proficiency, etc.?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Same as wizard would be my default.
Also, I guess it should be noted, each spell progression would use the spellcasting stat of its home class.
@Flak
What would you say for hit die, weapon proficiency, etc.?
Hit Dice 1d6 due BaB of 1/2
Armor lightShield none
Weapons proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, pluss diety favored weapon
Skill list
Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha),Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Knowledge (planes) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).
I understand adding Heal, Tom, but I'm not sure about Diplomacy or Sense Motive. Also I don't think the Mystic Theurge should lose any knowledges. I guess I'll do a proper write up of my suggestion in a bit (work calls).
P.S. I guess my bros over at Multiclass Productions also have a multiclass archetype that provides a similar flavor from 1st level. So here's another attempt at fixing the MT, for consideration by anyone else in this thread: Sacred Thaumaturge.
Thanks! I've been looking for something something like that for months!
Yeah, in fact I think instead of formalizing my "Mystic Theurge fix," I'm just going to push that archetype haha. My previous comments to zergtitan stand, though. I think his method is fine and interesting it just needs a bit of tweaking.
Meh. I prefer yours. It fits the mystic theurge much better mechanically in my opinion. I'll definitely be using it for a mythic NPC I've been agonizing over.
Edit: @Zergtitan I think what you have here is cool, it just doesn't fit exactly what I'm looking for. Mind, this thread is about what you made and not about what I want. With the suggested changes this would be a solid class, and I would totally play one.
Of course that mystic theurge base class might see a lot of mileage out of spell blending with a bard(or summoner)/oracle list. I do gotta ask if the original class can cast in armor, does the mystic theurge?
Okay okay fine. I'm putting this in spoiler tags because I don't want it to dominate the thread; I already feel conspicuous coming into someone else's thread and doing this... Anyway, here's a formalized write up of my suggestion. If there're any typos or whatnot let me know and I'll edit it. I think all the abilities are in order.
The mystic theurge's class skills are Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Fly (Dex), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (int).
Skill Ranks per Level: 2 + Int modifier.
The following are the class features of the mystic theurge.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Mystic theurges are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff. Mystic theurges are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Spells: At 1st level, the mystic theurge selects one divine spellcasting class and one arcane spellcasting class. The mystic theurge gains the spellcasting methods of those classes. The mystic theurge's spellcasting progresses as though he had levels in each of those classes equal to his mystic theurge level. For the purposes of determining spells per day and spell DCs for each of his spellcasting methods, the mystic theurge uses the ability score that he would use if he were the class whence that method derived. (For example, if the mystic theurge selects the sorcerer's casting progression, he uses his Charisma score and modifier for his arcane spellcasting.) If the mystic theurge's spellcasting methods require tools (such as spellbooks or divine focuses), the mystic theurge is capable of using these tools.
Armored Casting: The mystic theurge ignores arcane spell failure while wearing light armor if his arcane spellcasting progression is taken from a class that ignores arcane spell failure, such as the bard or magus. This does not apply to arcane spells received from other classes.
Combined Spells (Su): A mystic theurge can prepare and cast spells from one of his spellcasting methods using the available slots from any of his other spellcasting methods. Spells prepared or cast in this way take up a slot one level higher than they originally occupied. This ability cannot be used to cast a spell at a lower level if that spell exists on both spell lists. At 5th level, a mystic theurge can prepare 1st-level spells from one of his spellcasting classes using the 2nd-level slots of the other spellcasting class. Every two levels thereafter, the level of spells that can be cast in this way increases by one, to a maximum of 8th-level spells at 19th level (these spells would take up 9th-level spell slots). The components of these spells do not change, but they otherwise follow the rules for the spellcasting method used to cast the spell. If one of the mystic theurge's spellcasting methods is spontaneous and the other prepared, he can only cast a spell from his other method using his spontaneous casting slots if he prepared that spell that day, though this functions even if the spell has already been cast. For example, a mystic theurge with cleric and sorcerer spellcasting can use this ability to spontaneously cast a bless spell using a 2nd-level sorcerer spell slot, if the character had a prepared bless spell using a 1st-level cleric spell slot, even if that spell had already been cast that day.
Spell Synthesis (Su): At 10th level, a mystic theurge can cast two spells, one from each of his spellcasting classes, using one action. Both of the spells must have the same casting time. The mystic theurge can make any decisions concerning the spells independently. Any target affected by both spells takes a -2 penalty on saves made against each spell. The mystic theurge receives a +2 bonus on caster level checks made to overcome spell resistance with both spells if they share a target. The mystic theurge may use this ability once per day at 10th level and one additional time per every five levels thereafter, to a maximum of 3 times per day at 20th level.
|
I think this is overpowered. Spellcasting is already pretty strong, but the ability to just have two separate spell progressions is ridiculous. Getting the full wizard spell list with all its offensive and personal buff capabilities, combined with the healing and support spells of a cleric, is just too much versatility. There is literally nothing you can't do. Divination, healing, transforming, blasting, raising the dead, all of it.
You also don't have any alignment restrictions, meaning the mystic theurge gains access to all alignment divine spells at once, making it far superior to a cleric in terms of raw damage and condition infliction.
Really, the main problem here is the sheer number of slots you get. At first level, an oracle/sorcerer mystic theurge will have around 8 1st level spell slots per day. 8. That's ridiculous. Yes, you don't have your weak 1st level sorcerer powers or your mysteries, but you have spells, and you have twice as many as any other caster of your level.
The mystic theurge has delayed entry because it's at that level when the number of spells you have stops mattering, since you can usually end an encounter with one or two well-chosen spells. At the early levels though, 8 spells per day is ridiculous and makes you much stronger than a barbarian or a fighter of that level, since even though the barbarian or fighter can fight longer, they really only need 2 or 3 rounds to bring down an enemy with their team.
Spellcasters are supposed to suck at early game. Take that away and you will wreck what little balance there is right now.
Spellcasters are supposed to suck at early game. Take that away and you will wreck what little balance there is right now.
I think this is hyperbolic.
So I'll respond with another exaggeration (though I do think there's a grain of truth):Balance only exists in Pathfinder when the GM and players collaborate to ensure its presence.
(Also, really? A certain class of characters is supposed to suck? I think you need to either reevaluate that premise or reevaluate the game you play. All characters should be viable and fun at all levels. And I don't think spellcasters suck early game in the current system—they're just less than godly.)
I completely agree that the idea of the mystic theurge is kind of whack: it gives one character basically all the tools. But in a party where that doesn't decrease the fun for the rest of the players, there's no real issue. Mystic theurge as a base class doesn't upset CR balance at any level, I think, because of action economy restrictions. The main thing this change accomplishes is allowing players to feel more than incompetent while gaining the flavor they want from an earlier level. The secondary thing it accomplishes is allowing the character to not suck in the late game.
You also don't have any alignment restrictions, meaning the mystic theurge gains access to all alignment divine spells at once, making it far superior to a cleric in terms of raw damage and condition infliction.
Neutral clerics can already do this, as can oracles. In any event, I'm not convinced that power balance according to a janky platonic alignment system is the way to go. (Arguably, the paladin needs the alignment system because its abilities are too good to apply all the time, but that doesn't make it good game design.) To each their own, of course!
P.S. Out of curiosity, do you think that the normal mystic theurge is broken? Because assuming 7th level entry, in each of its spell progressions, it's only one spell level behind the mystic theurge base class I'm proposing. So it has "the ability to just have two separate spell progressions." It gets "the full wizard spell list with all its offensive and personal buff capabilities, combined with the healing and support spells of a cleric." There is "literally nothing" it can't do. And yet a lot of people deem the mystic theurge kind of underpowered. Make what you will of that.
|
|
(Also, really? A certain class of characters is supposed to suck? I think you need to either reevaluate that premise or reevaluate the game you play. All characters should be viable and fun at all levels. And I don't think spellcasters suck early game in the current system—they're just less than godly.)
I pretty much have to say spellcasters suck in the early levels. At level 1, you have a few class features that you can use a couple of times per day, you have low armor class and low hit points and very little battle presence. You can cast a powerful spell like sleep or color spray, but if your opponent succeeds their saving throw, you wasted your action. And while you could argue that the same is true of a warrior, the difference is that the warrior has many more ways to make sure he hits, like attacking a target who's prone, flanking, using a masterwork weapon, taking the Weapon Focus feat, pumping Strength, attacking from high ground, charging, etc etc. Spellcasters have Spell Focus, and that only works for one school of spells they have.
Neutral clerics can already do this, as can oracles. In any event, I'm not convinced that power balance according to a janky platonic alignment system is the way to go. (Arguably, the paladin needs the alignment system because its abilities are too good to apply all the time, but that doesn't make it good game design.) To each their own, of course!
Incorrect. Being neutral alignment does not give a cleric impunity to cast any spell he likes. A cleric cannot cast any spell whose alignment opposes his own or his deity's. It severely limits your deity selection if you want to be able to bring the hurt to every alignment at once as a cleric, and whether the resulting Domains you can get from that selection are worth the trade off is up to you. I just felt like pointing it out.
I pretty much have to say spellcasters suck in the early levels. At level 1, you have a few class features that you can use a couple of times per day, you have low armor class and low hit points and very little battle presence. You can cast a powerful spell like sleep or color spray, but if your opponent succeeds their saving throw, you wasted your action. And while you could argue that the same is true of a warrior, the difference is that the warrior has many more ways to make sure he hits, like attacking a target who's prone, flanking, using a masterwork weapon, taking the Weapon Focus feat, pumping Strength, attacking from high ground, charging, etc etc. Spellcasters have Spell Focus, and that only works for one school of spells they have.
(Also, really? A certain class of characters is supposed to suck? I think you need to either reevaluate that premise or reevaluate the game you play. All characters should be viable and fun at all levels. And I don't think spellcasters suck early game in the current system—they're just less than godly.)
Playstyle is different. Power levels aren't exact and hierarchical. Spellcasters have disadvantages in the early game. This shouldn't be touted as balance. At its best, it's a flaw in the system that some characters are more fun at some levels and others at others. But again, if you have a cooperative GM and a good group of players these issues are nonissues.
Incorrect. Being neutral alignment does not give a cleric impunity to cast any spell he likes. A cleric cannot cast any spell whose alignment opposes his own or his deity's. It severely limits your deity selection if you want to be able to bring the hurt to every alignment at once as a cleric, and whether the resulting Domains you can get from that selection are worth the trade off is up to you. I just felt like pointing it out.
Neutral clerics can already do this, as can oracles. In any event, I'm not convinced that power balance according to a janky platonic alignment system is the way to go. (Arguably, the paladin needs the alignment system because its abilities are too good to apply all the time, but that doesn't make it good game design.) To each their own, of course!
So you choose a neutral deity.
Or you work with your GM to create a new one, or a set of ideals (there are godless clerics). There are so many ways around this that it's hard to call it a hard and fast rule for clerics. It's a bit of pseudo-balance wrapped up in flavor that does not make the game much better.
Okay okay fine. I'm putting this in spoiler tags because I don't want it to dominate the thread; I already feel conspicuous coming into someone else's thread and doing this... Anyway, here's a formalized write up of my suggestion. If there're any typos or whatnot let me know and I'll edit it. I think all the abilities are in order.
** spoiler omitted **...
I think that you should consider the role your new class is going to perform. Once you've identified that role, examine the other classes that share said role. Now, would anyone ever play an existing class, or only play the new one you're creating? Meaning, is there a huge power disparity between classes?
In the class you created, clerics lose domains, sorcerer bloodlines and wizards lose school specialization & bond? Personally I don't feel that's a fair trade. I think that what you've proposed over shadows the existing classes to a degree no one would want to play them.
I'm not a fan of everything that the folks over at MCArchtypes create as I feel much of what they have created suffers from what I'm talking about above (outshines core classes to much). However, they have something that fits the bill for what you're looking to put together. Everyone enjoys the game for different reasons, so perhaps you'll like this.
Guys, he merely put it up due to being asked and you're raking him over the coals. He himself prefers the Sacred Thaumaturge and was the first to link to it. Give him a break.
Also, I'm using his class for an Icon in my 13th Age-inspired game. Huge power is exactly what I want here.
What DarthPinkHippo said :)