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Hello. We came across a Shadow Demon, which has Shadow Blend. You can find the creature entry here.
Here's the specifics of the ability though:
During any conditions other than bright light, a shadow demon can disappear into the shadows as a move-equivalent action, effectively becoming invisible. Artificial illumination or light spells of 2nd level or lower do not negate this ability.
Since they "effectively" become invisible, how does this interact with the spell Invisibility Purge (link)?
Here's the spell description:
You surround yourself with a sphere of power with a radius of 5 feet per caster level that negates all forms of invisibility.
Anything invisible becomes visible while in the area.
Thoughts?
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Thanks! I also noticed this was semi-addressed in the FAQ afterward. Link here.
Invisibility Purge: Does this work on creatures that are naturally invisible?
In general, yes--nothing in the spell description says it only works on spells or other magical sources of invisibility.
However, note that the invisible stalker's natural invisibility specifically says that it is not subject to invisibility purge. Thus, will-o'-wisps and pixies become visible, but invisible stalkers do not.—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11
Thanks again!
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i don't think it'd break the effective invisibility from shadow blend.
if you turn out the lights in the room, everything is effectively invisible to the cleric. that doesn't mean invisibility purge will negate deeper darkness.
"invisibility" from hiding is not effected. which is the kind of effective invisibility the shadow blend produces. Not Invisibility per the spell or similar ability.
And see, that's a good point Seraphimpunk. "Effectively" isn't part of the standard rules vocabulary where you can pull a specific meaning from it, or as far as I've read anyway.
Yet the FAQ implies that Invisibilty Purge purges all forms of invisibility, not just magical/spell sources, except in the example used where the invisible stalker is said to not be affected by it.
The other part I see is that shadow blend isn't a result of deeper darkness, it just tends to accompany it since Shadow Demons can cast it at-will.
Anyone else have other thoughts? Or think this is FAQ-worthy?
On the note of the creature, Kayerloth... What I find hilarious is it cannot see through Deeper Darkness. It has Darkvision to see through normal darkness, sure (but it can't cast normal darkness, except through shadow conjuration). And it has +20 perception. But it doesn't have any blindsight. To make up for this, they gave it Blind Fighting to let it roll twice on miss chance :D.
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"effective" invisibility is still not "invisibility". if you stand 10 ft. away from someone that's blind, you're effectively invisible. you don't have to hide in plane sight, you don't need a stealth skill. they can't see you, that makes you effectively invisible. they can pinpoint your square, because you're not quiet. but you still have total concealment from them.
i stand by the fact that invisibility purge won't turn all targets in a deeper darkness spell visible, when the lighting condition is whats making them invisible with respect to the viewer who doesn't have deepsight or some other ability. the FAQ addresses how Invisibility Purge interacts with creatures that have Natural Invisibilty, ie. their natural form is not visible to the naked human eye.
it is stupid though that the shadow demon doesn't have a deepsight ability to see through deeper darkness. I was hoping maybe Deepsight was a Demon trait or something. Devils get "see in darkness":
See in Darkness (Su) Some devils can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
, too bad its not a shadow Devil.
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illumination mostly works, you just need a 3rd level or higher light spell. daylight, or cleric continual flame will suffice to cancel out the shadow blending.
3rd level continual flame or daylight will cancel out an area of deeper darkness and return it normal lighting. If the shadow demon throws up a Deeper Darkness, at least you have the consolation prize that he's made you effectively invisible to him as well, since he just has darkvision.
Shadow Blend (Su) During any conditions other than bright light, a shadow demon can disappear into the shadows as a move-equivalent action, effectively becoming invisible. Artificial illumination or light spells of 2nd level or lower do not negate this ability.
deeper darkness has its own caveats: he's got to cast it indoors or at dusk/night to get the light level to drop to supernatural darkness. if he casts deeper darkness around himself in daylight ( to negate his daylight powerlessness ), the deeper darkness only goes as low as Darkness. in which case canceling it with daylight or continual flame will return the area to normal illumination: bright light leaving him powerless, or dusk.
If he takes a full attack action, he can't shadow blend. as its a move equivalent action. so if he moves and casts, he's visible. if he full attacks, he leaves himself visible. I think Shadow Demons just get run poorly, giving them too much of an advantage.
You make some good points, Seraphimpunk. And would you interpret that they take a move action to become invisible in those lighting conditions until they do something to break invisibility?
As for Natural Invisibility and Shadow Blend being different, this is a great direction for the conversation, since I didn't check this before... I'd agree in theory, except they're worded very closely, and function similarly. We'll use the Will-o'-wisp's Natural Invisibility, since the Will-o'-wisp was referenced in the FAQ. I'll line them all up.
During any conditions other than bright light, a shadow demon can disappear into the shadows as a move-equivalent action, effectively becoming invisible. Artificial illumination or light spells of 2nd level or lower do not negate this ability.
Will-o'-wisps have the ability to extinguish their natural glow as a move action, effectively becoming invisible, as per the spell.
In general, yes--nothing in the spell description says it only works on spells or other magical sources of invisibility.
However, note that the invisible stalker's natural invisibility specifically says that it is not subject to invisibility purge. Thus, will-o'-wisps and pixies become visible, but invisible stalkers do not.—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11
I added some emphasis with italics. For me, with this consistent phrasing, it clears it up better for me, and makes a strong case for Invisibility Purge making Shadow Demons become visible, despite the logic that they'd just be shrouded in shadows. Though of course they'll still have their other defenses.
Thank you for steering the conversation this way Seraphimpunk. I wouldn't have made that connection otherwise. I'm not sure if this definitively answers the question, but there seems to be a stronger relationship here.
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for that though, i point to the name of the ability and why it works with invisibility purge: "natural invisibility". vs. "shadow blend".
one is an EX ability, another is an SU ability.
will-o-the wisps have a glow, that takes some effort to douse. aside from that, their natural state is invisible. the only thing that gives normal people a clue to where they are is their glow.
invisibility purge works on them because it reveals this natural invisibility. while invisible stalkers have a special caveat that their natural invisibility isn't broken by invisibility purge.
See Invisibility however does spot both Will-o-wisps and Invisible stalkers, as their condition is "invisible", not blended or hidden.
"shadow blend", like a shadowdancer's HIPS, is a supernatural ability that depends on the ambient light condition, not on the perception of the viewer. ( it doesn't matter to either, if they're hiding from a dwarf w/ darkvision or a human with normal vision, as long as the area the shadow demon is in is "shadowy" or darker.
several creatures share this shadow blend type of ability, fetchlings, shadow mastiffs being among them.
Shadow Blend (Su) In any condition of illumination other than full daylight, a shadow mastiff disappears into the shadows, giving it concealment (50% miss chance). Artificial illumination, even a light or continual flame spell, does not negate this ability; a daylight spell, however, does. A shadow mastiff can suspend or resume this ability as a free action.
Shadow Blending (Su): Attacks against a fetchling in dim light have a 50% miss chance instead of the normal 20% miss chance. This ability does not grant total concealment; it just increases the miss chance.
when compared with the wording on the shadow demon's Shadow Blending ability, all su abilities, we see a trend: they're "effectively" invisible because all three of these creatures have a degree of 50% concealment in shadowy areas. making it hard to target them, take attacks of opportunity on them, etc. (except the fetchling) these are all benefits of the Invisibility condition, so writers seem to have progressed to calling it "effectively invisible" as a simpler way of stating it for the rules.
the creature doesn't vanish from sight or lose material form. they're just harder to see. so as they're not invisible, like the will-o-wisp, or the stalker, invisibility purge isn't a spell that will work on them. neither is see invisibility.your best bet is to find a way to get more light ( daylight with the sunrod equipment trick, heightened continual flame , etc ). to wipe out shadowy areas for them to blend with. I'd love to see less reliance on this tactic in games, for parties that don't come with several daylights prepared or face off against a creature with deeper darkness at will, it can just become a grind and be annoying.
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for that though, i point to the name of the ability and why it works with invisibility purge: "natural invisibility". vs. "shadow blend".
one is an EX ability, another is an SU ability.
Both say in their description that they are Supernatural. None is Extraordinary.
Both abilities use same text "effectively becoming invisible" which is good enough to be dispeled by Invisibility Purge.
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will-o-wisp that BeAuMan quoted lists it as an EX ability ( in more elaborate terms, its is EX because it is a natural phenomenon that the will-o-wisp is invisible )
the full quote from the bestiary is :
Natural Invisibility (Ex) Will-o'-wisps have the ability to extinguish their natural glow as a move action, effectively becoming invisible, as per the spell.
emphasis added. Since Will-o-wisps emulate the spell Invisibility, their invisibility is countered by Invisibility Purge. Shadow blending does not say "effectively becoming invisible, as per the spell", it just says "effectively becoming invisible"
invisibility purge turns invisible things visible. thats why the FAQ mentions Invisible Stalkers and Will-o-wisps. you're over-extending the faq to apply it to similar sounding abilities, that are not actually invisibility.
Shadow Blending doesn't make the shadow demon invisible, and doesn't apply to invisibility purge.
2 situations for you to arbitrate in your opinion:
what happens when the caster of invisibility purge is in an area of deeper darkness? everyone else in the area is effectively invisible to the caster. Can he suddenly see to the extent of his invisibility purge?
a human priest with invisibility purge is surrounded by 5 invisible dwarf rogues, but the priest is also in an area of darkness. Can the priest see the rogues? or are they still invisible to him?
Ah, excellent points. This is a wonderful conversation. So much so, I think I need to annotate my post. I think we're making some great progress here. It's like some sort of murder mystery! I think the Butler murdered the Shadow Blending in the pantry with the candlestick!
@Seraphim's first reply:
Concerning the theory that the writers transitioned from how they wrote shadow blending for the shadow mastiff and the fetchling to how they wrote the shadow demon now as a "simpler" explanation... That does sound very reasonable, except that the Shadow Demon was written in Bestiary I, Fetchling was written in Bestiary II, and Shadow Mastiff was written in Bestiary III.
So perhaps with that theory, it's the reverse. They wanted to remove the words "effectively invisible" from Shadow Blending, as using the word "invisible" complicates things rules wise (we are having this discussion, after all). So perhaps the Shadow Demon's ability needs to be updated? Or perhaps it's different because it's a Shadow Demon from the Abyss, while those other two examples seem to be more related to the Plane of Shadow. I'm not really sure, but you may be on to something here.
@Seraphimpunk's 2nd reply:
As for your second post concerning the over extension of the FAQ, and that the will-o-wisp only qualifies because it's "as per the spell"... You just need to read the FAQ again.
In general, yes--nothing in the spell description says it only works on spells or other magical sources of invisibility.
However, note that the invisible stalker's natural invisibility specifically says that it is not subject to invisibility purge. Thus, will-o'-wisps and pixies become visible, but invisible stalkers do not.
—Sean K Reynolds, 06/30/11
Emphasis added. According to the FAQ, it works on all forms of invisibility, whether it be spell-like, supernatural, extraordinary, or otherwise. It doesn't work on the invisible stalker because it calls it out as not working. He did use the words "in general" though.
Concerning your 2 situations
Situation 1.) Invisibility Purge doesn't affect Deeper Darkness in any way, so it wouldn't do anything, and the caster could not see, unless he has some special ability to see through supernatural darkness. Invisibility Purge only affects "invisibility". You can say that they are "effectively invisible", but from a rules perspective, Invisibility /= Total Concealment + Hidden in Darkness. Invisibility is defined twice in the Glossary under "Special Abilities" and "Conditions". It gives you Total Concealment, sure. And then it gives the invisible person bonuses to attack and anyone they attack is flat footed... which is a attacker-centric version of the rules so far for when a creature can't see in darkness. But, Invisibility also gives a +20 bonus to stealth checks (The spell gives a +20 or +40 bonus, it's a bit of a discrepancy I think). Invisibility is its own thing mechanically, and is defined as such. This also limits the scope of special abilities like Invisibility Purge that specifically interact with invisibility to not interact directly with Total Concealment + Hidden in Darkness, and this additionally limits the scope of special abilities that specifically interact with darkness and even supernatural darkness to not interact directly with invisibility. The rules tend to lead me to believe that invisibility functions on its own sort of "law of physics", if you will (Not that I'm going to bring actual physics into this, Never!).
(Just a sidenote real quick: This is actually very interesting since the way the rules are written, you can stack invisibility with attacking a creature that cannot see in darkness, thus giving the attacked creature a -2 to AC and giving the attacker a +2 Attack Bonus, for an "effective" total of +4AB for the attack. Correct me if I'm wrong.)
Situation 2.) The human priest will have canceled out the invisibility on the dwarf rogues, but unless he has some ability to see through the darkness or a source of light, then they will still remain hidden to him. However, he will have removed (as mentioned in the sidenote) their bonus to attack against him, as well as their +20 or +40 bonus to stealth checks against him. This means that he will have a greater chance of at least perceiving them.
This actually leads into another interesting point: Spot and Listen were combined into Perception, while Move Silently and Hide were combined into Stealth in the transition from 3.5 to Pathfinder. Previously, in 3.5, that +20 bonus would have only applied to Spot checks. In Pathfinder, perception is perception, and stealth is stealth, so Invisibility became more powerful... And this is where we are today.
Thank you for that, I hadn't been as clear on the rules previously until this discussion. I think with our discussion so far, and the discussion to come, the topic is FAQable, no? I'd appreciate it if folk went ahead and hit the FAQ button. Because we've made it clear, I think... that this really isn't all that clear :D.
Oh, and yes, I'd like parties to prepare light spells as well. In our case, our current party doesn't have a Tier 1 character. No wizard, no cleric... we did just get a bard though. I had access to a special form of Invisibility Purge via a magic item.