|
The balor will wreck the monk even before we get to spending the balor's treasure or customizing feats / skill points.What!?
Who said that was even an option?
A Balor with PC WBL would wreck anything I could come up with using core only, even a paladin.
He means usings its(the Balor's) 50-100k in treasure. So that the balor is equipped with magic items that you may roll instead of finding them in a pile behind the thing.
One must take care when assigning further magic items to bestiary creatures. While it is not unreasonable for some such creatures to use their wealth towards enhancing items, it can disrupt their CR.
One must take care when assigning further magic items to bestiary creatures. While it is not unreasonable for some such creatures to use their wealth towards enhancing items, it can disrupt their CR.The balor will wreck the monk even before we get to spending the balor's treasure or customizing feats / skill points.What!?
Who said that was even an option?
A Balor with PC WBL would wreck anything I could come up with using core only, even a paladin.
He means usings its(the Balor's) 50-100k in treasure. So that the balor is equipped with magic items that you may roll instead of finding them in a pile behind the thing.
As in the CR means nothing.
With 100K the Balor can grab two +5 weapons that become vorpal in their hands, making a perviously weak power attack into a shredding tornado.
Lormyr levels of magical item buying would bump the Balor's CR by 3-5 points.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lormyr levels of magical item buying would bump the Balor's CR by 3-5 points.
Heh, I'll take it as a compliment! :p
As if to prove your point, a 20 point buy CRB only monk:
Human Monk 20; AL LN
Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +11, Senses Perception +33
DEFENSE
AC 46 (+7 Dex, +9 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight), touch 38, flat-footed 38
hp 223 (20d8+120)
Fort +23, Ref +25, Will +27; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Damage Reduction 10/chaotic; Defensive Abilities improved evasion; Immune disease, poison; SR 30
OFFENSE
Speed 90 ft.
Melee +5 unarmed strike +29/+24/+19 (2d10+12/19-20 x2) or
Melee +5 unarmed strike +32/+32/+27/+27/+22/+22/+17 (2d10+12/19-20 x2) with flurry of blows
Ranged n/a
Special Attacks flurry of blows, quivering palm (DC 29) 1/day, stunning fist (DC 29) 20/day
STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 24, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 28, Cha 7
Base Atk +15; CMB +34 (+36 disarm and trip); CMD 65 (67 vs. disarm and trip)
Feats Blind-Fight, Combat Expertise, Dazzling Display, Defensive Combat Training, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Critical (unarmed strike), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Intimidating Prowess, Medusa's Wrath, Persuasive, Power Attack, Shatter Defenses, Skill Focus (Intimidate), Weapon Focus (unarmed strike)
Skills Acrobatics +31 (+75 when jumping), Escape Artist +31, Intimidate +39, Perception +33, Sense Motive +33, Use Magic Device +19
SQ abundant step (2 ki), diamond body, diamond soul, empty body (3 ki), fast movement, high jump, ki pool (adamantine, cold iron, lawful, magic, silver) 19, maneuver training, perfect self, purity of body, slow fall (any distance), still mind, timeless body, tongue of the sun and moon, unarmed strike, wholeness of body (2 ki)
Combat Gear 2 potions of fly, rod of absorption (50 charges), staff of the woodlands, wand of heroism (CL 4th; 50 charges), wand of shield (50 charges); Other Gear +5 amulet of mighty fists, belt of physical perfection +6, boots of speed, bracers of armor +8, cloak of resistance +5, headband of inspired wisdom +6, dusty rose prism ioun stone, pale green prism ioun stone, ring of counterspells (greater dispel magic), ring of protection +5
Manuals and Tomes Monk has read a manual of gainful exercise +1, manual of quickness of action +4, and a tome of understanding +4.
So this monk doesn't prepare much. barkskin for 2 hours and 10 minutes from staff of the woodlands and heroism for 40 minutes a pop from wand of heroism (I will get my damn barkskin + amulet even if you make me pay double for both!). Hold the rod of absorption in one hand while fighting. Between it's 50 charges and your ring of counterspells, it will take the 10 attempt to greater dispel you can actually land (hands off my buffs, balor). These change his combat block as follows:
AC 51 (+7 Dex, +9 Wis, +5 monk, +8 armor, +5 deflection, +1 dodge, +1 insight, +5 natural), touch 38, flat-footed 43
Fort +25, Ref +27, Will +29; +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Melee +5 unarmed strike +31/+26/+21 (2d10+12/19-20 x2) or
Melee +5 unarmed strike +34/+34/+29/+29/+24/+24/+19 (2d10+12/19-20 x2) with flurry of blows
Skills Acrobatics +33 (+77 when jumping), Escape Artist +33, Intimidate +41, Perception +35, Sense Motive +35, Use Magic Device +21
Combat tactics are simple:
Round 1: swift action = ki dodge, move action = close distance, standard action = Intimidate to demoralize (let that flaming sissy know what's about to happen to him)
Round 2: wreck face with full attack against his flat-footed AC due to Shatter Defenses feat (you cannot fail to demoralize the balor for at least 2 rounds), plus free action = boots of speed and swift action = ki dodge or ki attack
If you use a tap from the shield wand, Combat Expertise, and keep spending ki for ki dodge, he hold a 65 AC for a good while. Not bad for CRB only.
One must take care when assigning further magic items to bestiary creatures. While it is not unreasonable for some such creatures to use their wealth towards enhancing items, it can disrupt their CR.The balor will wreck the monk even before we get to spending the balor's treasure or customizing feats / skill points.What!?
Who said that was even an option?
A Balor with PC WBL would wreck anything I could come up with using core only, even a paladin.
He means usings its(the Balor's) 50-100k in treasure. So that the balor is equipped with magic items that you may roll instead of finding them in a pile behind the thing.
CRs are irrelevant at high level. Bestiary creatures are often designed using the Core Rule Book. Players are using every resource at available to them. Thus a player's CR is variable as well. The no save spells they often employ from new books that game designers fail to take into account in spell combination raises CR substantially. I deal with this all the time. Whichi is why I throw out CR.
I design encounters based on the PC opponent. A DM following the CR rules at high levels shouldn't even bother running combats against players unless he is confining them to the Core Rule Book or books the creatures are limited to. Otherwise he is not going to create a sufficient challenge for the PCs. If that is what you're DM is doing, I can see why you consider it easy to defeat encounters at high levels.
Your casters are no more absolute than the ones I run. I know of few single spells that can effectively end a fight without a save. I certainly don't run things "by the book", so that save is not hard to make.Well, of course things are going to play out differently if we don't run things "by the book". I'm not even going to attempt to discuss such circumstances because there is entirely too many variables to take into consideration for that.
How can you get that spell added to your wizard list?My wizard does not need the spell, so I don't have it on his build. Reveal weakness giving you a -9 to your saves for a round more than does the trick for him.
If "Arcane Savant" is a generic word for "Pathfinder Savant", then those are infact the two sources a wizard could use to get it.
Sorcerer's have the much cheaper resource of ring of spell knowledge.
Probably the best one shot kill he has would be trap the soul juju:
Standard action: reveal weakness (-9 to AC and saves). no SR, no save to resist, just eat it
Free action: recall a spell with robe of runes to add +2 enhancement bonus to spell DCs for a round.
Swift action: persistent quickened trap the soul (DC 36 or 38 if you know the target's name)
With persist and reveal weakness, it's essentially make two DC 45/47 Will saves or peace out, homie.
For Fort saves, use polymorph any object instead, also DC 45.
Now you're taking the Void Element for all your wizards? You play that over and over again?
I'm assuming you're using a greater rod of quicken with a trait that reduces trap the soul by one level for metamagic and the Persistent Spell feat. Which means you can't doe the same with Polymorphy Any Object since you can't have a trait that reduces both by 1 level. So you're set up for either or since you can't add metamagic feats to increase spells beyond 9th level and cannot use more than one rod at a time since it is activated as part of casting the spell.
Oh you would die at a least once using that combo, possibly more often if you were reckless in using it. If you were depleting your spells on patsies set up to deplete your resources, you would be quite surprised when the real enemy showed up as well.
Do you check what opponent buffs are up before you unleash that combination? Does your DM ensure that in BBEG fights you're often fighting an opponent with nondetection or mind blank to make sure you have no idea what spells are protecting them? I ensure that fights require lots of Spellcraft checks to determine what the other guy is casting. Often at range to give Perception penalties and penalties for a lack of visibility. Both sides usually have anti-divination magic up so they don't know the items or spells existing on each other putting each other at risk of Spell Turning or other such nasty counters.
Then the enemy often shows up hidden since you can make opponents with superior stealth. Then there is the "friend" factor. Do you leave your fellow players hanging while they get decimated by opponent casters?
I am an Arm's Race DM. I figure if BBEGs have to fight PCs, they wouldn't survive unless they had equal access to PC type resources. Now this is not standard encounters. So don't assume that I'm talking every encounter. I do let PCs flex their might more often than not. You earn a character to that level, you want to feel powerful. If you don't, that's pretty lame.
At the same time I understand Paizo game/module designers do not have the time nor inclination to design appropriate level encounters for PCs using 20, 30, or more books. So I gotta make sure they experience a real challenge by modifying encounters accordingly, which allows me to limit knowledge checks involving unique elements added to monster opponents and counter the multiplicative power of a party with casters.
That's nice. Reveal Weakness is a Supernatural ability, which means it isn't even effected by Spell Turning. So when you cast your spell, you would think it was all nicely set up as it was reflected back on you.
0_0
I have no idea what is going on anymore. DC 45 spells?
The best I could do with a core gnome illusionist is 10+13+3 = 36.
That Void Element is probably the best wizard specialization to take. We play with the Hero Point rules. It becomes even more powerful with Hero Points, ridiculously powerful. The min-maxer in me salivates at the Void School. The DM in me wants to take the Paizo game designers to task for adding it into the game. Did they play test the Void Element in a party? A wizard using that ability on enemies while the rest of the party tees off is pretty much end game for any BBEG. It's nearly impossible for a DM to work in any way to stop it due to it being a Supernatural ability. This is definitely one of the signs that the creative juices at Paizo are nearing their end. Once their quality control reaches a point where their game designers can't see how badly something like the Void Elemental School screws DMs in a party structure, it's all downhill from there. I wish these games could stay reasonable and the game designers focused enough to keep things like this from going out for general use. I've been playing long enough to know that the need to keep products rolling out always leads to a point where player options exceed a DMs ability to challenge the players.
The Void Elemental School is one of those abilities. What can I do in 90% of encounters if the wizard as a standard action reduces an opponents saves by 6 to 10 while his party members tee off with Critical Feats and Spells of their own ending nearly every major fight within a round or two. Not much I can do as a DM. It used to be that a player could maybe reduce a save or AC by -2. Now it is adding up. prediction of failure followed up by Reveal Weakness would make any creatures saves nearly impossible. Paizo should never, ever allow that to happen as often as it will with this Void Elemental School.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
CRs are irrelevant at high level. Bestiary creatures are often designed using the Core Rule Book. Players are using every resource at available to them. Thus a player's CR is variable as well. The no save spells they often employ from new books that game designers fail to take into account in spell combination raises CR substantially. I deal with this all the time. Whichi is why I throw out CR.
I design encounters based on the PC opponent. A DM following the CR rules at high levels shouldn't even bother running combats against players unless he is confining them to the Core Rule Book or books the creatures are limited to. Otherwise he is not going to create a sufficient challenge for the PCs. If that is what you're DM is doing, I can see why you consider it easy to defeat encounters at high levels.
I agree that most (but not all) monsters do not hold up well at higher levels. I don't know that it's appropriate to call CR irrelevant, though. All a CR is is a number assigned to a creature that attempts to sum up the total power of it's capabilities. Someone with good system knowledge and knowledge of their PC's capabilities can just eyeball it, as you have said. This skill takes time to learn though. For others, the CR rating is a useful resource.
When I run non-PFS games, I rarely throw a single opponent more than CR +2 or +3 over the party. I am instead a fan of multiple enemies. The reason 1 enemy often does poorly against a party is because action economy is heavily in the PC's favor. Easiest non-cheese way to address that is to have more enemies. Big boss plus minions, rival party, paired monsters, ect ect.
|
|
Now you're taking the Void Element for all your wizards? You play that over and over again?
Lol, man you are the master of jumping to conclusions. How many wizards do you think I have? My only Pathfinder wizard is my PFS character, who is a Void Elementalist 5/Magaambyan Arcanist 10/Loremaster 3.
I do not often replay classes because I enjoy variety.
I'm assuming you're using a greater rod of quicken with a trait that reduces trap the soul by one level for metamagic and the Persistent Spell feat.
Not even close. paragon surge for free Spell Perfection feat = 1 free metamagic feat. staff of the master = second metamagic spontaneously by spending charges.
Which means you can't doe the same with Polymorphy Any Object
Incorrect, since you can choose whatever spell you like to be Spell Perfected with each casting of paragon surge. That combo works with literally any spell you want to cast now.
If you were depleting your spells on patsies set up to deplete your resources, you would be quite surprised when the real enemy showed up as well.
Nah, I just "gorgon win" (tm) :p patsies. Nice and easy and only costs me the one spell slot.
Persistent DC 37 shapechange = one very nasty 60 ft. cone of petrification every 1d4+1 rounds. :p Anything immune to petrification just gets mauled down as a huge dragon.
Do you check what opponent buffs are up before you unleash that combination?
Always. Even if they don't have any casting ability.
Does your DM ensure that in BBEG fights you're often fighting an opponent with nondetection or mind blank to make sure you have no idea what spells are protecting them?
This character lives in PFS, so nope. We do the best we can to run the printed baddies viciously though.
Do you leave your fellow players hanging while they get decimated by opponent casters?
This character was ran beside a mystic theurge counterspell specialist. I didn't want to step on his toes, so never had to worry about this. He is of course capable of handling such situations, however.
I am an Arm's Race DM.
If that works for your groups, more power to you guys. We just tone things down in home games so we don't have to go to that circus. Part of the reason we started playing PFS was to unleash our ungodly beasts without having to feel guilty to demolishing someone's hard written home chronicle. Everything in PFS is pre-written, so we work hard to be courteous to our GM and other players sitting with us, but remorselessly smash face when it comes time to fight.
|
|
0_0
I have no idea what is going on anymore. DC 45 spells?
The best I could do with a core gnome illusionist is 10+13+3 = 36.
Just a slight derail Marthkus, sorry about that. That is not the true DC of the spell. The formula is broken down like this:
10 base
14 Intelligence
8 spell level
2 spell focus feats
So base DC is 34. If you run the combo I mentioned, you further add:
2 spell focus feats doubled from Spell Perfection
2 trap the soul specific bonus if you know the target's name
2 enhancement (buff from robe of runes)
So we end up at DC 40. If you slap them with reveal weakness first, they take a -9 to the save, so it's effectively DC 49. Persisted, of course. :p
|
|
My response to that is: If player's optimize the DM should optimize the encounters. If your character can auto kill CR appropriate encounters then those encounters should become equal to your characters skill with no extra xp or magic. In other words if your APL 4 characters can destroy with little effort anything up to CR8 Then I will start making CR 4's as hard as a CR 8 etc etc.
Our response is to just tone down the optimization for home games. None of us have any interest in a pissing match with our GM.
0_0
I have no idea what is going on anymore. DC 45 spells?
The best I could do with a core gnome illusionist is 10+13+3 = 36.
Ahh! Incorrect math!
It's more like: 10 + 13 + 3 + 9 = 35
|
Darn, guess that's a whole 50gp potion I'll have to pay for out of the 8,000gp spare cash my fighter build had knocking around.
Sarcasm eh? Okay.
First, Pro: Evil only protects you from the the dominate - not the Blasphemy or Stun.
But lets say he tries to go with Dominate anyway. Your potions is a move + standard to draw and drink, so that's your first round wasted. His AoO can be used to shatter it too. And if you drink it, he can dispel it immediately while still moving 90ft. away, faster than even a double-move fly from you can keep up. (You only have 40ft. with your boots.) Or just port away for the 10 rounds it takes to wear off and come back.
Sure, I posted it above but here it is again.
Yeah, still need your help with the CMD calculation here. From the stats you posted, I'm getting 33 (10 + Str(12) + Dex(5) + Deflection(5) + Dodge(1)) - a very far cry from the 56 you're claiming. With that CMD, TK nails you on a 5, and he can do it as a swift. Where's the other 23 coming from?
Potion. Not that it makes much difference because the dominate has to be used from within charge range of winged boots anyway.
The haste potion lasts even less time (5 rounds as opposed to 10.)
Actually, the REAL test is to put both monk and fighter in a 'standard' party and see who can contribute the most. You rarely solo monsters like this, more often it's a team effort on something of CR (APL+2 to +44) that really counts.
Solo efforts matter because that moment may come up when the entire party is disabled or neutralized and you have to finish the job solo. If you can do it, then obviously you can contribute in a group.
And again, a Balor isn't even the hardest level 20 encounter around.
Well there is also the point that the Zen Archer isn't really a typical monk - you'd have to compare him to an archery based fighter, which would probably be a lot closer than you may think.
I notice you didn't mention Qinggong, but anyway; "Typical monk" makes about as much sense as "typical fighter" - they are both a product of their training and the techniques they learn. But thankfully we are leaving out archetypes for simplicity's sake. (Thankfully for the Fighter that is.)
There is no such thing as 1.5 full attacks. The DPR calculation took into account crit damage.Fighter takes 3 rounds to finish the fight (move, full attack, full attack)Wrong on (almost)all accounts.
Therefore a monk chance of getting dominated in 4 rounds is: 10.5%
I did say I was guessing. And that's only ONE account.
However, my point remains that the balor is better off chopping the monk up than trying the jedi mind-tricks, and his odds of losing are about the same as the fighter's. The critical difference being that the fighter is finishing the fight faster.
The damage per hit and crit multiplier (and the fact that the fighter doesn't need to confirm) mean that if the fighter scores just one critical hit in the first two rounds, the fight is over before the third round. As he crits on a 19-20, the odds of getting six non-crits in a row (opening attack plus full attack) is only 53%. So roughly half the time the fight is over by the end of round #2.
So the fighter needs on average one-and-a-half full attacks to kill the balor, half as many as the monk. Of course this fighter is using a less than optimal weapon - if he was swinging a falcatta two-handed the odds are the fight will end at the end of the first full-attack.
In the long run, that is indeed correct, but the combat is so brief and the impact of a single critical hit so large that it has to be factored in to make a reasonable comparison. Fact remains, 47% of the time the fight is over in one round of full attacks, only 53% of the time does the balor survive long enough to make it two.
The CRB fighter needs ONE less full-attack than the monk to kill the Balor.
Sorry, but half the time it's going to be TWO less rounds than the monk. I know the monk does not have the ability to significantly shorten the fight on a lucky hit other than with his stunning fist, but the fighter most certainly does.
This is not so fast that they have more survivability than the monk.
...I never argued that it was. You, however, argued that the monk had significantly MORE survivability than the fighter, and I have demonstrated that that this is not necessarily the case. The fighter's ability to finish the fight on a lucky hit is a very significant factor.
Which a non-flurry Stunning fist works 3.75% of the time
A flurry stunning fist works 4.75% of the timeThe Balor can be as clever as he wants to be, but if one of those stunning fist connects, the Balor is dead.
Less than the odds that the balor will end the fight with a vorpal hit...
The Balor's best bet to kill the monk is to trade full-attacks after using all his long range SLAs.
Agreed.
More likely than not, the Balor retreats.
More than likely, but we are postulating a situation in which the balor cannot or chooses not to (hey, if he's not on his own plane, death isn't final!).
The Balor just kills any non-archer fighter.
Er, no, he doesn't, I've demonstrated that he doesn't. He's lucky if he gets to survive to round 3.
The problem with comparisons is that each game is a unique context, each party a unique set of needs and requirements of the monk/fighter and each DM a different kind of challenge setter.
I absolutely agree, the acid test is what the character can bring to the party.
Er, no, he doesn't, I've demonstrated that he doesn't. He's lucky if he gets to survive to round 3.
The Balor would never stay in full-attack range of the fighter. For fighting the monk trading full-attacks is the safest option.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To be clear, I absolutely think the Fighter can beat the Balor. But the TK, Blasphemy, Stun and Dominate are much more threatening to the Fighter than the Monk and can't be discounted. And the fighter's (lack of) speed is a big problem too.
And I'd still like that CMD break down, as my calculations put it significantly lower.
|
|
To be clear, I absolutely think the Fighter can beat the Balor. But the TK, Blasphemy, Stun and Dominate are much more threatening to the Fighter than the Monk and can't be discounted. And the fighter's (lack of) speed is a big problem too.
And I'd still like that CMD break down, as my calculations put it significantly lower.
It's extremely easy to make a CMB of +28 irrelevant. Level 20 fighter example with low balled attribute bonuses:
10 base
20 BAB
10 strength
5 dexterity
5 deflection (ring of protection +5)
1 insight (dusty rose prism ioun stone)
1 dodge (feat)
52 CMD right there.
First, Pro: Evil only protects you from the the dominate - not the Blasphemy or Stun.
Power word stun Does not effect creatures with more than 151 hit points. Blasphemy only has the effect of dazing the fighter for one round - so the balor wastes a round and gains a round, then it's used it's blasphemy for the day - not really worth it.
But lets say he tries to go with Dominate anyway. Your potions is a move + standard to draw and drink, so that's your first round wasted.
Unless you pre-buff because you are in the kind of place where you might run into a greater demon. That happens a lot. If you are taken by surprise, you attack immediately.
His AoO can be used to shatter it too.
If he's close enough to AoO, he's close enough to full attack on a 5' step, and he's pretty much dead meat at that point (see above).
And if you drink it, he can dispel it immediately while still moving 90ft. away, faster than even a double-move fly from you can keep up. (You only have 40ft. with your boots.)
Nope, 60 ft, the fighter's only carrying a light load, and armour training means the armour don't count, only the weight vs his 34 strength. Darn, he just wasted around moving and dispelling and I flew up, Lunged, and clocked him with my reach weapon with him only getting one AoO, pretty dumb balor this...
Or just port away for the 10 rounds it takes to wear off and come back.
The teleport works against everyone, as has already been pointed out. The situation is artificial.
Yeah, still need your help with the CMD calculation here. From the stats you posted, I'm getting 33 (10 + Str(12) + Dex(5) + Deflection(5) + Dodge(1)) - a very far cry from the 56 you're claiming. With that CMD, TK nails you on a 5, and he can do it as a swift. Where's the other 23 coming from?
Sure, I posted it above but here it is again.
Huh? My CMD calculation was done by HeroLab.
Base = 10 + 20 BAB + 12 Strength + 5 Dexterity + 5 Deflection + 1 Dodge + 1 insight = 54 base, then +2 Improved Grapple = 56
TK nails me on a 20, only.
Potion. Not that it makes much difference because the dominate has to be used from within charge range of winged boots anyway.The haste potion lasts even less time (5 rounds as opposed to 10.)
Yeah, but I don't need it, this balor just put himself in charge range and I have a speed weapon anyway.
Actually, the REAL test is to put both monk and fighter in a 'standard' party and see who can contribute the most. You rarely solo monsters like this, more often it's a team effort on something of CR (APL+2 to +44) that really counts.Solo efforts matter because that moment may come up when the entire party is disabled or neutralized and you have to finish the job solo. If you can do it, then obviously you can contribute in a group.
However you see more boss-fights than solo fights - admittedly you see some boss-fights that end with one PC vs boss for the final round, but that's a different cauldron of seafood. I'm not saying the solo fight isn't important, but it's the exception and not the rule. Under those circumstances where the rest of the party is disabled the balor HAS to engage the fighter closely or he can administer potions to restore team-mates, and that's curtains for the balor.
And again, a Balor isn't even the hardest level 20 encounter around.
Agreed.
I notice you didn't mention Qinggong, but anyway; "Typical monk" makes about as much sense as "typical fighter" - they are both a product of their training and the techniques they learn. But thankfully we are leaving out archetypes for simplicity's sake. (Thankfully for the Fighter that is.)
The qinggong is a big improvement on the monk, and can make a monk function better (particularly in the AC department), however it doesn't effect the monk's biggest problem of poor attacks very much. The quingong is close to the rewrite of the monk that was needed, but just missed it.
Er, no, he doesn't, I've demonstrated that he doesn't. He's lucky if he gets to survive to round 3.The Balor would never stay in full-attack range of the fighter. For fighting the monk trading full-attacks is the safest option.
He's got no reason to stay in full attack range of the monk, either, because both get as many attacks as the other. Full-attack wise the monk actually dishes more hurt because he hits the balor more often than the balor hits him, so the balor has as much reason to keep moving and trade single attacks (that the monk is less accurate with) and AoO's as he has to do so with the fighter.
In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.
In this fight the balor has significantly better odds against both foes.
To be clear, I absolutely think the Fighter can beat the Balor. But the TK, Blasphemy, Stun and Dominate are much more threatening to the Fighter than the Monk and can't be discounted. And the fighter's (lack of) speed is a big problem too.
No, they aren't. Only the Dominate matters, and in a party context even that isn't a major issue. TK (needs a 20 to work), Blasphemy (only dazes for one round), and Stun (no effect on 151+ hit points) are either ineffective or insignificant to the fighter. Even the dominate isn't actually as dangerous as it looks. Consider: fighter has to fail his save (45% chance), but what then? If the balor sends the fighter against his friends, or just makes him stand still for a coup-de-grace, that's most certainly trying to compel someone to act against their nature and he gets a second save at +2, only a 35% chance of success. So the total odds of success for the balor are .45 x .35 = 15.75% - without the second save allowed 1/day with Improved Iron Will. Dominate can end the fight, but it isn't SoD, it just buys the balor time.
On the flip side, if vorpal works on the monk, he's dead.
As for speed, it's a flying creature and both monk and fighter are using their winged boots, the monk has no advantage.
Fair enough, I missed the BAB part of the calculation, so thanks for that. But that still doesn't help his move speed, will save or SR, advantages that are clearly in the monk's court.
But they are not significant advantages given that the fighter is exposed for less time.
SR improves the monks chances of resisting from 95% to 97.5% - so the balor (being intelligent) was never going to use the powers anyway on the monk, SR or not.
Speed is irrelevant, everyone's flying.
Will Save is an advantage, but not a huge one as I've demonstrated. Dominate is not a save-or-die, it's a save-and-save-again-or-die, because just about everything that would render the fighter helpless or kill him or use him are things against his nature (fighter don't hand over their favourite weapons to enemies, or take off their helmets and say "cut here" - it's not in their nature, or most sentient creatures' come to that). While the fighter's will save is not as good as the monk's it is good enough to make this unlikely.
On the other hand, be it a running tag-fight or a slogging match, the fighter's raw damage will end the fight faster and this means he is less exposed to danger. His critical threat range and damage multiplier mean that if he's lucky, the fight is over very quickly indeed (we're talking a 10% chance per blow of dishing over half the balor's hit points in damage in that one hit here). On the flip side, the monk in the tag-fight is trading two blows for four on his 3/4 BAB, and his smaller damage output means he's taking longer to wear down the balor while the balor gets better odds of a confirmed 20 taking the monk's head off.
In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.
Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Speed is irrelevant, everyone's flying.
What about a targeted dispel at the boots of flying (or whatever is giving the classes flying)? Though I think this actually gives a slight advantage to the fighter, because he can pick up a bow.
In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Yep you need mythic powers to strike an opponent with more than 1 AOO per round anyways.
What about a targeted dispel at the boots of flying (or whatever is giving the classes flying)? Though I think this actually gives a slight advantage to the fighter, because he can pick up a bow.
Speed is irrelevant, everyone's flying.
Technically monks can fly with empty body.
Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
I stand corrected!
What about a targeted dispel at the boots of flying (or whatever is giving the classes flying)? Though I think this actually gives a slight advantage to the fighter, because he can pick up a bow.
Speed is irrelevant, everyone's flying.
Indeed, it gives a BIG advantage to the fighter, because while the fighter can shoot arrows (and at level 20 a handful of bane arrows against most dangerous creatures is a cheap investment), the monk cannot (unless he's a Zen Archer, who is only going to do that anyway) and cannot even reach the balor, effectively the monk becomes irrelevant to the encounter at that point.
Yep you need mythic powers to strike an opponent with more than 1 AOO per round anyways.
No, you just need Combat Reflexes (the balor has them) and multiple opportunities. I was wrong in that one move = one opportunity, not one square = one opportunity, my bad. On the other hand that means the fighter doesn't have to mess about with Lunge and lowering his AC to avoid extra AoO's. The tactic still plays to the balor's strengths by drawing out the encounter and forces the monk to fight on his 3/4 BAB.
Interestingly, the fight still only lasts three rounds against the fighter either way, as two attacks/round gives him a mean 140 DPR. That means that the fight is definitely over by round #3, with a 34% chance of being over by the end of round #2 if the fighter scores a critical hit.
Against the monk, the balor is hitting AC 43 on AoO's(-2 charge +4 Mobility), giving him a total 4.5% chance per round of a straight kill. The monk is getting two attacks at +30, giving him 1.5 hits for 39DPR. That gives him ten rounds to kill the balor, in which the balor has a 37% chance to outright kill the monk - slightly better than before. The monk has a 32% chance of getting a stunning fist in this period, which tips the odds better in his favor as it lets him get in a full-attack which shortens the fight by about four rounds.
Against the monk, the balor is hitting AC 43 on AoO's(-2 charge +4 Mobility), giving him a total 4.5% chance per round of a straight kill. The monk is getting two attacks at +30, giving him 1.5 hits for 39DPR. That gives him ten rounds to kill the balor, in which the balor has a 37% chance to outright kill the monk - slightly better than before. The monk has a 32% chance of getting a stunning fist in this period, which tips the odds better in his favor as it lets him get in a full-attack which shortens the fight by about four rounds.
Ewwww Bad math .45*.05 = 2.25% not 4.5%, The monks stunning fist is more likely to connect than the Balor's vorpal (monk stunning fist being 3.75%).
The Balor only attacks once per round, moving away and casting dominate person or another SLA is a more likely kill than a standard action attack.
Combat Reflexes is a core, nonmythic feat available from level 1 with no prerequisites.Yep you need mythic powers to strike an opponent with more than 1 AOO per round anyways.In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
False, you need mythic combat reflexes to "As a swift action expend one use of mythic power to, until the start of your next turn, make attacks of opportunity against foes you've already made attacks of opportunity against this round if they provoke attacks of opportunity from you by moving"
The feat also gives you unlimited AOOs per round.
Against the monk, the balor is hitting AC 43 on AoO's(-2 charge +4 Mobility), giving him a total 4.5% chance per round of a straight kill. The monk is getting two attacks at +30, giving him 1.5 hits for 39DPR. That gives him ten rounds to kill the balor, in which the balor has a 37% chance to outright kill the monk - slightly better than before. The monk has a 32% chance of getting a stunning fist in this period, which tips the odds better in his favor as it lets him get in a full-attack which shortens the fight by about four rounds.Ewwww Bad math .45*.05 = 2.25% not 4.5%, The monks stunning fist is more likely to connect than the Balor's vorpal (monk stunning fist being 3.75%).
The Balor only attacks once per round, moving away and casting dominate person or another SLA is a more likely kill than a standard action attack.
You forget, he gets an attack of opportunity AND a standard attack - he's only taking a single move away. He strikes, moves away (taking an AoO), then the monk follows and takes an AoO moving in. Can't use acrobatics on a charge, and the difference in move rates mean the monk has to charge to keep up.
So that's 2.25% plus (.55*.05) = 5%...oops my bad, I was slightly down, it WAS bad math! This means the balor's vorpal is more likely to connect than the monk's stunning fist; in fact over ten rounds that's a 40% chance the monk dies. Plus, stunning fist doesn't end the fight, although it shortens it; vorpal shortens the monk.
Combat Reflexes is a core, nonmythic feat available from level 1 with no prerequisites.Yep you need mythic powers to strike an opponent with more than 1 AOO per round anyways.In fact, the balor's best bet is to keep retreating out of range of the monk and let him charge, then deliver AoO's (he has 20' reach - three AoO's - and the monk can't use Acrobatics on a charge, but the fighter can use Lunge and his reach weapon to reduce the AoOs to one) and single strikes against the monk's reduced AC, while the monk only gets one AoO and one strike, both on 3/4 BAB. The fighter gets only two hits as well, but he does it on his full BAB.Don't want to get too into this anymore, but I'd just like to comment:
Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
False, you need mythic combat reflexes to "As a swift action expend one use of mythic power to, until the start of your next turn, make attacks of opportunity against foes you've already made attacks of opportunity against this round if they provoke attacks of opportunity from you by moving"
The feat also gives you unlimited AOOs per round.The CRB disagrees with you.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity bonus to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Clarification for both sides: The mythic feat talks about AOOs from moving.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Actually the rules make perfect sense to me:
Combat Reflexes allow one AoO per opportunity up to a limit of dex bonus +1.
Moving through threatened areas is one opportunity, regardless of how many squares you move.
Mythic allows you to treat each square as a separate opportunity.
|
|
Power word stun Does not effect creatures with more than 151 hit points.
So he damages you first. Since you're not dropping him in one round and you're taking damage the whole time for hitting him this isn't a trivial obstacle. If you ever drop below 151 the fight is over.
Unless you pre-buff because you are in the kind of place where you might run into a greater demon.
Prebuff with a 1 minute duration buff? Really?
And most combats in D&D are the monsters jumping you, not the other way around.
If he's close enough to AoO, he's close enough to full attack on a 5' step, and he's pretty much dead meat at that point (see above).
They have 20ft. reach with a touch attack, so not necessarily.
Nope, 60 ft
Armor Training has no effect on the Fly spell, which is what your boots use.
The teleport works against everyone, as has already been pointed out. The situation is artificial.
But the monk doesn't need a 1 minute buff to protect his mind, so teleporting away does nothing to him actually.
As for speed, it's a flying creature and both monk and fighter are using their winged boots, the monk has no advantage.
As I pointed out above, Armor Training does nothing for the fighter's flight speed by RAW. The monk meanwhile not only has full speed, he can fly and even teleport without the boots.
... how can he fly without the boots? Or teleport?
Are you talking about Abundant Step? Because that works like Dimension Door, which makes it a rather terrible method of "chasing" the Balor.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As Marthkus pointed out, Empty Body lets the monk Fly. Not as fast as the balor mind you, so I do believe the Balor will eventually beat the core monk AND the core fighter if he has good knowledge of their abilities (only fair, since we're looking at a Balor's stat block, the Balor gets to look at the fighter's and the monk's). Probably by starting with dispel spam on their magical equipment.
Yeah that's why I said a monk can 'technically' fly. Not particularly useful outside of GTFOing.
Although DD plus Empty body is the best non-caster GTFO in the game.
Although DD plus Empty body is the best non-caster GTFO in the game.
The "best non-caster" anything in 3rd edition D&D/Pathfinder is like having "the best smelling poop" or being "the best football player on the Jaguars." It just doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you're still proud of crap.
Although DD plus Empty body is the best non-caster GTFO in the game.The "best non-caster" anything in 3rd edition D&D/Pathfinder is like having "the best smelling poop" or being "the best football player on the Jaguars." It just doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you're still proud of crap.
Not at all. Things like Plane-Shift and Greater Teleport are better GTFO options sure, but It's very hard to create a situation where a combinations of 90 move speed, DD, and empty body don't work.
Hell, even the two caster options I mentioned don't work with dimensional anchor. A monk can always empty body and sprint away, or empty body, walk 10ft down, sprint away.
Hell, even the two caster options I mentioned don't work with dimensional anchor. A monk can always empty body and sprint away, or empty body, walk 10ft down, sprint away.
A monk's Empty Body functions as though using the spell etherealness.
Forms of movement barred by a dimensional anchor include astral projection, blink, dimension door, ethereal jaunt, , gate, maze, plane shift, shadow walk, teleport, and similar spell-like abilities.
Not at all. Things like Plane-Shift and Greater Teleport are better GTFO options sure, but It's very hard to create a situation where a combinations of 90 move speed, DD, and empty body don't work.Although DD plus Empty body is the best non-caster GTFO in the game.The "best non-caster" anything in 3rd edition D&D/Pathfinder is like having "the best smelling poop" or being "the best football player on the Jaguars." It just doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you're still proud of crap.
Situation: "You are part of an adventuring party."
Too bad Abundant Step and Empty Body don't help your friends escape. I think it would be kind of neat if you could use them on allies.
Thank you, Lotion. I was attempting to look literally at the monk "flying" and I wasn't seeing what was being said.
Although DD plus Empty body is the best non-caster GTFO in the game.The "best non-caster" anything in 3rd edition D&D/Pathfinder is like having "the best smelling poop" or being "the best football player on the Jaguars." It just doesn't matter. At the end of the day, you're still proud of crap.Not at all. Things like Plane-Shift and Greater Teleport are better GTFO options sure, but It's very hard to create a situation where a combinations of 90 move speed, DD, and empty body don't work.
Hell, even the two caster options I mentioned don't work with dimensional anchor. A monk can always empty body and sprint away, or empty body, walk 10ft down, sprint away.
I disagree with mplindustries' denigration of non-casters as well (they actually function rather well in the game from my experiences), however...
How can a monk empty body if they're dimensionally anchored? Or did I misunderstand you? (It's possible. It's pretty late.) Or does it not affect Empty Body because Empty Body is a supernatural ability instead of a spell-like ability? (Now I'm actually guessing it's the last one due to the overly-specific wording of Dimensional Anchor. That's cool. I'm cool with letting monks have this.)
Also, what's the relevance of walking 10ft down? I'm not getting the reason for it. Are you suggesting that the combat is only 10ft off the air? Or was that just an arbitrary number as a filler? I'm not trying challenging you on this, I'm just trying to understand.
Reference a monk's ability to fly and teleport without the boots...
... that's really slow. Like, really slow.
Or does an enhancement bonus to land speed count as an increase of "normal speed" for the purpose of empty body (and thus ethereal jaunt, which I linked, as etherealness refers you back to ethereal jaunt)? In which case the monk gets to move at half the balor's speed.
Coriat, that's actually a good point. Why doesn't Empty Body reference Ethereal Jaunt directly instead of Etherealness, since it takes away the only benefit that Etherealness grants over Ethereal Jaunt? There's probably a reason that I'm just not getting, but I'm curious.
EDIT: Also, Coriat, to be clear, I read it the way you did at first. However, I'm guessing the "loophole" being looked at is the "supernatural ability" instead of a "spell-like ability" and the fact that it's called "Empty Body" (which is not, technically, on the list) that only happens to work like "etherealness".