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You also occasionally run into the issue of "Dwarves are vikings who live underground. All Dwarves have beards. You're doing it wrong if you don't do that." and "Elves are pretty boys who shoot bows. Why aren't you shooting a bow and why does your Elf have low Charisma?".
Oh holy crap yes.
Whenever a GM or a fellow player tells me how to roleplay my character, I instantly want to slap them in such a way that Moe Howard would be in awe of it. No, my dwarf does NOT attack goblins on sight. No, my elf is NOT a snooty arrogant schmuck. No, my halfling does NOT overeat. And so on and so forth.
This is exactly the reason I love playing Half-Orcs. I never play them as the ugly, brainless, roid-raging barbarian that most people shoe-horn them into.
I hate being shoe-horned, especially into a selection of races, which really limits what I can do in terms of interesting characters.
You also occasionally run into the issue of "Dwarves are vikings who live underground. All Dwarves have beards. You're doing it wrong if you don't do that." and "Elves are pretty boys who shoot bows. Why aren't you shooting a bow and why does your Elf have low Charisma?".
Oh holy crap yes.
Whenever a GM or a fellow player tells me how to roleplay my character, I instantly want to slap them in such a way that Moe Howard would be in awe of it. No, my dwarf does NOT attack goblins on sight. No, my elf is NOT a snooty arrogant schmuck. No, my halfling does NOT overeat. And so on and so forth.This is exactly the reason I love playing Half-Orcs. I never play them as the ugly, brainless, roid-raging barbarian that most people shoe-horn them into.
I hate being shoe-horned, especially into a selection of races, which really limits what I can do in terms of interesting characters.
i like my Half-Orc Scarred Shamans
my Weeaboo Loli Elven Voodoo Priests
my Tiefling Library assistants
my Half-Nymph Support Bards
my Angelkin Maid Assassins
my Onispawn Savage Brawlers who seek to become monsters
my sickly fetchling countess
or my Wandering Sylph Street Magician
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I very much dislike when people refuse races with the reason of "I don't want furries/weeaboo stuff in my game." It's, by all means their right, and I wouldn't ever FORCE someone to allow that stuff, but it's a silly "reason" if you could call it that. Yes, I might be playing a Gnoll because I get off on the idea of hyena men, but instead/also, I could be wanting to play one because I like the idea of playing a cannibalistic, pack-focused curious character that will get weird looks in taverns and generally stir things up. One who isn't the boring "human, small fat human, tall posh human" Tolkien-trifecta. Heroes are supposed to stand out.
I think playing exotic races should be kept in check, yes, people playing it JUST to be "anime-kawaii" or whatever is annoying and disruptive to the other players, but if there's a genuine role-playing reason, or even just a gameplay reason so long as it's not grossly overpowered, the players should work together on it. The game is about having fun, after all.
On another note, I hate when people talk about "GMs and Players" like THEY'RE different species. They're all players, GMs just play a bunch of different characters.
If you want to play a character for the express purpose of getting weird looks in taverns and generally stir things up, it sounds like this would be an issue if the rest of the group is not enthusiastic about you getting weird looks and generally stirring things up. After all, that would compete for time with, you know, actually playing the campaign as in dealing with the plot, interacting with each other and NPCs, stuff like that.
If you want to play a character for the express purpose of getting weird looks in taverns and generally stir things up, it sounds like this would be an issue if the rest of the group is not enthusiastic about you getting weird looks and generally stirring things up. After all, that would compete for time with, you know, actually playing the campaign as in dealing with the plot, interacting with each other and NPCs, stuff like that.
If you actually read my post, you'd know that's not a problem. And even if I DID say that all I wanted to play a Gnoll for was to get weird looks, that's still NPC interaction, and more than you'd get with the regular "alright Halfling, roll knowledge: local. Good job. The guy at the bar tells you it's to the south."
I can make a human for getting weird looks in taverns. Is not hard.
I'm not sure if you read my post either. I specifically stated 5 other reasons.
No, but it is a "closed" encounter. It has nothing to do with anything else. It runs much the same everywhere. It is, frankly, about the most useless things to do in the game. And no, I am not advocating "roll a Knowledge(local)". Then again, if that is what you are used to, maybe a preference for running gonzo races isn't so strange.
Try an experiment:
Remove all racial abilities in the game. Every race, no matter what, just gets a bonus feat and skill point, or whatever you decide. The point is to make every race mechanically identical. Then, allow any race whatsoever. Watch what happens.
I wager you're going to get three major groups of PCs:
1) People indulging fetishes and personal fantasies with their characters (furries or Mary Sue Tieflings, for example)
2) People totally into playing a particular racial stereotype (the boastful, drunk, Scottish/Viking combo Dwarf, for example)
3) HumansThe point is, the vast, vast majority of people are choosing weird races for their mechanics. I have literally never seen a Human in AD&D, for example, because they got absolutely nothing racially except a higher max level cap which everyone ignored anyway.
Yeah, I agree.
If they are doing it for the mechanics, make sure the mechanics are balanced.
If they then protest at the balancing you did, it was all about the stats, and not about the idea of being a monster/demihuman/ochre jelly.
No, but it is a "closed" encounter. It has nothing to do with anything else. It runs much the same everywhere. It is, frankly, about the most useless things to do in the game. And no, I am not advocating "roll a Knowledge(local)". Then again, if that is what you are used to, maybe a preference for running gonzo races isn't so strange.
I'm not quite sure what you just said, so I won't overstep and risk talking about something you weren't. It would help if you actually quoted me and pointed out what each sentence was projected towards.
I was just making a comment. Had nothing to do with you.I can make a human for getting weird looks in taverns. Is not hard.I'm not sure if you read my post either. I specifically stated 5 other reasons.
Ah, okay. Also, changing usernames/avatars confused me for a second there!
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We are legion.
Try an experiment:
Remove all racial abilities in the game. Every race, no matter what, just gets a bonus feat and skill point, or whatever you decide. The point is to make every race mechanically identical. Then, allow any race whatsoever. Watch what happens.
I wager you're going to get three major groups of PCs:
1) People indulging fetishes and personal fantasies with their characters (furries or Mary Sue Tieflings, for example)
2) People totally into playing a particular racial stereotype (the boastful, drunk, Scottish/Viking combo Dwarf, for example)
3) HumansThe point is, the vast, vast majority of people are choosing weird races for their mechanics. I have literally never seen a Human in AD&D, for example, because they got absolutely nothing racially except a higher max level cap which everyone ignored anyway.
Yeah, I agree.
If they are doing it for the mechanics, make sure the mechanics are balanced.
If they then protest at the balancing you did, it was all about the stats, and not about the idea of being a monster/demihuman/ochre jelly.
my excuse for playing nymphs and half nymphs for certain classes based on any of the following criteria
i wanted to play a cute, youthful, amiable, long-lived and approachable character that will generally draw plenty of positive attention from the human villagers, reasonably be allowed in a human or elven settlement, has a supernatural charm, is as adaptable, motivated, and ambitious as a human, is a cunning and creative manipulator, happens to be reasonably capable of earning a noble title in human or elven society, looks good dressed like a Porcelain Doll, looks cute playing with Marionettes, makes a vulnerable Moe Blob of a noncombatant bard, and has generally kind words to persuade others in a manipulative fashion akin to pulling puppet strings.
Nymphs were known for being attractive and persuasive, and being good buddies of elves and humans alike, i wanted a race that blended the desired traits, half elf didn't offer the exact racials i wanted to fit this concept, so i tried 7 drafts of a half nymph race.
the concept, didn't start as half-nymph or minmax diplomacy
but a frail girl of prolonged life, who happened be on the surface, generous and sweet, but on the inside, a lawful evil puppeteer of the mind who used other's trust and loyalty to her advantage by both magical and mundane means. essentially, a younger genderswapped version of Lelouch Vi Britannia with aspects of Light Yagami, Patchouli Knowledge and a hint of Raistlin Majere.
Sounds like a threat to the kingdom.
So when is the big steal?
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my excuse for playing nymphs and half nymphs for certain classes based on any of the following criteriai want a cute, youthful, amiable, long-lived and approachable character that will generally draw plenty of positive attention from the human villagers, reasonably be allowed in a human or elven settlement, has a supernatural charm, is as adaptable, motivated, and ambitious as a human, is a cunning and creative manipulator, happens to be reasonably capable of earning a noble title in human or elven society, looks good dressed like a Porcelain Doll, looks cute playing with Marionettes, makes a vulnerable Moe Blob of a noncombatant bard, and has generally kind words to persuade others in a manipulative fashion akin to pulling puppet strings.
Nymphs were known for being attractive and persuasive, and being good buddies of elves and humans alike, i wanted a race a race that blended the desired traits, half elf didn't offer the exact racials i wanted to fit this concept, so i tried 7 drafts of a half nymph race.
the concept, didn't start as half-nymph or minmax diplomacy
but a frail girl of prolonged life, who happened be on the surface, generous and sweet, but on the inside, a lawful evil puppeteer of the mind who used other's trust and loyalty to her advantage by both magical and mundane means. essentially, a younger genderswapped version of Lelouch Vi Britannia with aspects of Light Yagami, Patchouli Knowledge and a hint of Raistlin Majere.
Just passing through (again). The character you're describing could easily be Half Elf or Elf. The Half Nymph might very well turn out to be fine as a player race but the characteristics you describe could be any manipulative female character with "long lived" cinching it for Half Elves and Elves (or a Paizo style Gnome) in the core races. Not your typical member of the races, but adventurers often aren't.
If the setting sported a species with these characteristics as a group I doubt they would get warm welcome from a lot of people. As an individual, the character could be interesting.
So, what about Elves (or Half Elves or Paizo / 1st world fey Gnomes) invalidates them for this character and necessitates a custom race / half breed? or is this being developed as a racial variant for a setting?
Elves and half-elves do not have a supernatural aura of charming in most settings, R Chance.
This reminds me of that old and stupid argument of "Want to play a good orc? Here, have a half-orc".
If I ask for an apple, you damn well shouldn't be surprised if I'm unhappy when you give me an orange instead.
Elves and half-elves do not have a supernatural aura of charming, R Chance.This reminds me of that old and stupid argument of "Want to play a good orc? Here, have a half-orc".
If I ask for an apple, you damn well shouldn't be surprised if I'm unhappy when you give me an orange instead.
She didn't mention supernatural charm in the post I quoted, nor do I think that aspect of the Nymph would carry over into a playable 0 HD race. She described intellectual / emotional characteristics and I asked a question about it. I'm sure she can answer it. As I mentioned the Half Nymph sounds like it could be made into a playable race, the question being couldn't you do the concepts without going to a custom race.
*edit* So, take the hostility and leave it somewhere else. Save it for whatever argument generated it.
my excuse for playing nymphs and half nymphs for certain classes based on any of the following criteriai want a cute, youthful, amiable, long-lived and approachable character that will generally draw plenty of positive attention from the human villagers, reasonably be allowed in a human or elven settlement, has a supernatural charm, is as adaptable, motivated, and ambitious as a human, is a cunning and creative manipulator, happens to be reasonably capable of earning a noble title in human or elven society, looks good dressed like a Porcelain Doll, looks cute playing with Marionettes, makes a vulnerable Moe Blob of a noncombatant bard, and has generally kind words to persuade others in a manipulative fashion akin to pulling puppet strings.
Nymphs were known for being attractive and persuasive, and being good buddies of elves and humans alike, i wanted a race a race that blended the desired traits, half elf didn't offer the exact racials i wanted to fit this concept, so i tried 7 drafts of a half nymph race.
the concept, didn't start as half-nymph or minmax diplomacy
but a frail girl of prolonged life, who happened be on the surface, generous and sweet, but on the inside, a lawful evil puppeteer of the mind who used other's trust and loyalty to her advantage by both magical and mundane means. essentially, a younger genderswapped version of Lelouch Vi Britannia with aspects of Light Yagami, Patchouli Knowledge and a hint of Raistlin Majere.
Just passing through (again). The character you're describing could easily be Half Elf or Elf. The half Nymph might very well turn out to be fine as a player race but the characteristics you describe could be any manipulative female character with "long lived" cinching it for Half Elves and Elves (or a Paizo style Gnome) in the core races. Not your typical member of the races, but adventurers often aren't.
If the setting sported a species with these characteristics as a group I doubt they would get warm welcome from a lot of people. As an individual, the character could be interesting.
So, what about Elves (or Half Elves or Paizo / 1st world fey Gnomes) invalidates them for this character and necessitates a custom race / half breed? or is this being developed as a racial variant for a setting?
Not Really a Fan of Gnomes, the name threw me off, plus not a fan of gnomes in general
i could have done it with an Odd Elf or Half Elf, but my group tends to have the classic steriotypes involving elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and orcs, so i needed something that fit the mold of "puppetmaster", but was obscure enough to not need the steriotypes my group has about the races that seem to holdover from prior systems.
so i read about the half-nymph from a borrowed copy of bastards and bloodlines, and did my own take on human-nymph halfbreeds for a 0HD conversion, plus nymphs are one of my favorite monsters, and favorite fey creature
of course, human/nymph hybrids might as well be so rare, that they may not be much of a known race, leaving my PC as the one known example.
i wasn't in the mood to be accused of BADWRONGFUN for not playing a Treehugging Veagan Hippie.
She didn't mention supernatural charm in the post I quoted, nor do I think that aspect of the Nymph would carry over into a playable 0 HD race. She described intellectual / emotional characteristics and I asked a question about it. I'm sure she can answer it. As I mentioned the Half Nymph sounds like it could be made into a playable race, the question being couldn't you do the concepts without going to a custom race.
Elves and half-elves do not have a supernatural aura of charming, R Chance.This reminds me of that old and stupid argument of "Want to play a good orc? Here, have a half-orc".
If I ask for an apple, you damn well shouldn't be surprised if I'm unhappy when you give me an orange instead.
There was one line in her post you missed.
"Nymphs were known for being attractive and persuasive, and being good buddies of elves and humans alike, I wanted a race that blended the desired traits, half elf didn't offer the exact racials I wanted to fit this concept, so I tried 7 drafts of a half nymph race." - As you can see, she had a legitimate reason to ignore your suggestions. Also, it's funny that you would mention hostility here when it's usually people like you who point the finger and accuse others of badwrongfun styles of play.
Not Really a Fan of Gnomes, the name threw me off, plus not a fan of gnomes in generali could have done it with an Odd Elf or Half Elf, but my group tends to have the classic steriotypes involving elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, and orcs, so i needed something that fit the mold of "puppetmaster", but was obscure enough to not need the steriotypes my group has about the races that seem to holdover from prior systems.
so i read about the half-nymph from a borrowed copy of bastards and bloodlines, and did my own take on human-nymph halfbreeds for a 0HD conversion, plus nymphs are one of my favorite monsters, and favorite fey creature
of course, human/nymph hybrids might as well be so rare, that they may not be much of a known race, leaving my PC as the one known example.
i wasn't in the mood to be accused of BADWRONGFUN for not playing a Treehugging Veagan Hippie.
Makes sense. I haven't followed the transformation of Gnomes into the Golarion Fey type myself. Playing the Elf / Half Elf against stereotype could work but I can see your point.
There was one line in her post you missed."Nymphs were known for being attractive and persuasive, and being good buddies of elves and humans alike, I wanted a race that blended the desired traits, half elf didn't offer the exact racials I wanted to fit this concept, so I tried 7 drafts of a half nymph race." - As you can see, she had a legitimate reason to ignore your suggestions. Also, it's funny that you would mention hostility here when it's usually people like you who point the finger and accuse others of badwrongfun styles of play.
I didn't miss it. I suspect other races can be attractive and persuasive (if not supernaturally so) as well. She didn't ignore my "suggestion" (a question really). She answered it quite well. And I'm oh so glad you know "people like you", well me. There are no "badwrongfun" ways to play; just different ways and different preferences. You have however convinced me to go back to grading papers. I should thank you for that I suppose.
No, but it is a "closed" encounter. It has nothing to do with anything else. It runs much the same everywhere. It is, frankly, about the most useless things to do in the game. And no, I am not advocating "roll a Knowledge(local)". Then again, if that is what you are used to, maybe a preference for running gonzo races isn't so strange.I'm not quite sure what you just said, so I won't overstep and risk talking about something you weren't. It would help if you actually quoted me and pointed out what each sentence was projected towards.
Okay. "Getting weird looks at the bar", or more generally, scenes primarily dealing with prejudice or ignorance about a character's race, are scenes that exist pretty much outside everything else that happens. If you have been to Lower Plodney and gotten thrown out for being half-otyugh, it's not much different from what will happen in Upper Plodney. What is more, those scenes do not connect in any meaningful way with anything else that happens in the campaign. If the GM wants you to visit Lower Plodney, he/she has to either ignore the thrown clogs scene, which will break immersion pretty firmly (Why didn't the townsfolk throw clogs at a half-otyugh???), or play through it. It gets old VERY quickly, and throws a direct wrench into the plot: The half-otyugh either has to stay outside (meaning it can't join the others in interaction), or risk having the party not welcome/pay three times as much/be shunned and risk not getting information. As a GM, that isn't a good situation.
I do try to let people interact for a while with people around them BEFORE rolling that Knowledge (local) roll when I GM. Bonuses or penalties to that roll are a result of those interactions. But, in your example, you say getting weird looks is still better than only rolling Knowledge (local). This suggests that the only kind of NPC interaction you get when you play is getting weird looks - and if so, I understand on a deep level why you prefer playing weird races. I would too, if it was my ONLY way to get to interact and roleplay without using dice.
I didn't miss it. I suspect other races can be attractive and persuasive (if not supernaturally so) as well. She didn't ignore my "suggestion" (a question really). She answered it quite well. And I'm oh so glad you know "people like you", well me.
There was one line in her post you missed."Nymphs were known for being attractive and persuasive, and being good buddies of elves and humans alike, I wanted a race that blended the desired traits, half elf didn't offer the exact racials I wanted to fit this concept, so I tried 7 drafts of a half nymph race." - As you can see, she had a legitimate reason to ignore your suggestions. Also, it's funny that you would mention hostility here when it's usually people like you who point the finger and accuse others of badwrongfun styles of play.
Apologies for the hostility, I misinterpreted the messages you sent to Umbriere.
I do agree that there are no right or wrong ways to play. I actually said that earlier in this thread.
Oh... and Umbriere... having a bit of experience with corsets, this
cute vestigial bat wings that could be concealed beneath a corset
made me cringe and think of crushed wings and splintered bones... =(
No, but it is a "closed" encounter. It has nothing to do with anything else. It runs much the same everywhere. It is, frankly, about the most useless things to do in the game. And no, I am not advocating "roll a Knowledge(local)". Then again, if that is what you are used to, maybe a preference for running gonzo races isn't so strange.I'm not quite sure what you just said, so I won't overstep and risk talking about something you weren't. It would help if you actually quoted me and pointed out what each sentence was projected towards.Okay. "Getting weird looks at the bar", or more generally, scenes primarily dealing with prejudice or ignorance about a character's race, are scenes that exist pretty much outside everything else that happens. If you have been to Lower Plodney and gotten thrown out for being half-otyugh, it's not much different from what will happen in Upper Plodney. What is more, those scenes do not connect in any meaningful way with anything else that happens in the campaign. If the GM wants you to visit Lower Plodney, he/she has to either ignore the thrown clogs scene, which will break immersion pretty firmly (Why didn't the townsfolk throw clogs at a half-otyugh???), or play through it. It gets old VERY quickly, and throws a direct wrench into the plot: The half-otyugh either has to stay outside (meaning it can't join the others in interaction), or risk having the party not welcome/pay three times as much/be shunned and risk not getting information. As a GM, that isn't a good situation.
I do try to let people interact for a while with people around them BEFORE rolling that Knowledge (local) roll when I GM. Bonuses or penalties to that roll are a result of those interactions. But, in your example, you say getting weird looks is still better than only rolling Knowledge (local). This suggests that the only kind of NPC interaction you get when you play is getting weird looks - and if so, I understand on a deep level why you prefer...
Thanks for clarifying. Again, though, you ignored all the other reasons I picked out being a Gnoll over just a regular boring Tolkien fat stupid human/tall arrogant human. And I don't think I'd enjoy a game that was more than the basic 5 hour scenarios, where your character and the specific challanges one might face as a wizard, or a bard, or a Gnoll, or whatever, has nothing to do with the actual campaign. If so, I feel like characters are pointless and you're just rolling dice so you can be the generic hero.
You're latching on to something I said half-jokingly and acting like it'd be the end of the world. Getting weird looks isn't a goal or anything, it's the most unessential fluff needed, but having a dialog or situation where your CHARACTER influences something more than Bards get +2 or non-Humans have to pay triple or whatever is necessary for the type of game I like. And in the end, I'm playing a game where the best spell is barfing rainbows at your opponent so hard they fall unconscious. If I want to play a Gnoll to have a bit of fun, what's the big deal.
Oh... and Umbriere... having a bit of experience with corsets, this
cute vestigial bat wings that could be concealed beneath a corsetmade me cringe and think of crushed wings and splintered bones... =(
depends on the size of the bat wings, i think if you don't wear it too tightly, you could conceal a pair of mini bat wings.
but yeah, it would be uncomfortable. and it would take a while to find the proper fit
when they are Majin Etna Sized Bat Wings, they would be a lot easier easier to conceal than full on Ulquiorra Schiffer Bat Wings.
in fact, i had the Majin Etna Variety in mind, those things, are definitely Vestigial, if they were the Ulquirra Schiffer Size, they would have to support flight. there is a reason it's called vestigial wings.
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Oh... and Umbriere... having a bit of experience with corsets, this
cute vestigial bat wings that could be concealed beneath a corsetmade me cringe and think of crushed wings and splintered bones... =(
Unless it's a magical corset of comfort or something!
And Umbri, not everyone knows who Etna and Ulquiorra are. XD
The way I see it, your character is far more than your race and class. You have a history, a personality, preferences, uncertainties, secrets, desires, hobbies, religion, views of the world, views of yourself, hopes, fears, and so on and so forth. All these things are, or may be, influenced by your race and class... but it is those things, not your race and class, that define your role and interactions you have. And... none of these absolutely require you to play a particularly weird race. If you DO play a weird race, I want to see how these factors are affected by that. What would it mean to be a gnoll, if you don't want it merely to be a doggish human caricature?
Play it like that, and you will find the +2 that bards get to be pretty irrelevant.
And there is nothing at all wrong with having a bit of fun - so long as it doesn't mean wasting to much game time on "the most unessential fluff".
The way I see it, your character is far more than your race and class. You have a history, a personality, preferences, uncertainties, secrets, desires, hobbies, religion, views of the world, views of yourself, hopes, fears, and so on and so forth. All these things are, or may be, influenced by your race and class... but it is those things, not your race and class, that define your role and interactions you have. And... none of these absolutely require you to play a particularly weird race. If you DO play a weird race, I want to see how these factors are affected by that. What would it mean to be a gnoll, if you don't want it merely to be a doggish human caricature?
Play it like that, and you will find the +2 that bards get to be pretty irrelevant.
And there is nothing at all wrong with having a bit of fun - so long as it doesn't mean wasting to much game time on "the most unessential fluff".
The race I choose is part of that whole.
Like it or not, that's just how my brain works.
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Elves and half-elves do not have a supernatural aura of charming in most settings, R Chance.
This reminds me of that old and stupid argument of "Want to play a good orc? Here, have a half-orc".
If I ask for an apple, you damn well shouldn't be surprised if I'm unhappy when you give me an orange instead.
I wanted orange. It gave me lemon-lime.
I don't really know how to answer that, Icyshadow. I did say the things you bolded would be affected by race and class. What makes me sad is that usually in a party, you have a few characters of "boring" races, say, two humans and an elf, with at least some of those things to differentiate them as characters, and then you have a gnoll, a half-dragon tiefling, and a half-otyugh shadow nymph. And for these characters, there is nothing. The gnoll, for example: History=gnoll, personality=gnoll, preferences=gnoll, and so on. Some of these characters have their race specifically chosen to maximize some stat, skill, or other mechanical value.
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If it boils down to every aspect of the character just being their race, then it's the player who hasn't build a proper character.
No matter what race or class I play, I build AN ACTUAL CHARACTER. Sadly, some who prefer exotic races don't, and I get put in with them.
The reason why I was bitter about that one old DM of mine was that he rejected my characters because of their race, not because of their story.
As mentioned earlier, I had one recurring character of mine as a human. One GM wanted me to play this character in his campaign, but as a drow. I made some minor changes to the character, and over time the drowness became central to many parts, as well as a foil to the character's non-drow aspects.
As long as I get some sort of realized characters that could reasonably go through the campaign without becoming a headache, I am a happy GM.
The way I see it, your character is far more than your race and class. You have a history, a personality, preferences, uncertainties, secrets, desires, hobbies, religion, views of the world, views of yourself, hopes, fears, and so on and so forth. All these things are, or may be, influenced by your race and class... but it is those things, not your race and class, that define your role and interactions you have. And... none of these absolutely require you to play a particularly weird race. If you DO play a weird race, I want to see how these factors are affected by that. What would it mean to be a gnoll, if you don't want it merely to be a doggish human caricature?
Play it like that, and you will find the +2 that bards get to be pretty irrelevant.
And there is nothing at all wrong with having a bit of fun - so long as it doesn't mean wasting to much game time on "the most unessential fluff".
Gnolls add to the character in that they think differently from humans. As much as it may pain us to say it for multiple reasons, you can't just suppress all your natural instincts, and to that end, race DOES matter. Their language doesn't have many instances where you'd use a question mark, so they talk differently. They smell dead things and they think "Food" not "Get that disease-ridden thing away from me", and playing a human character that doesn't have the second reaction just seems to be a kiddish "REBEL AGAINST THE SYSTEM BECAUSE YOU CAN" sort of mentality.
A human wouldn't grow up burrowing holes in the ground and sparring, sometimes to the death, with the other 2 year old humans. A human probably wouldn't grow up in a camp with giants and trolls and Gnoll culture. Race and class certainly do influence your past and to an extent your present. I struggle to find a reason why a barbarian or a fairy would join a traveling gang of adventurers, or why a Gnome would appreciate the hours of silence needed to prepare spells, and it's highly unlikely that a half-orc would be brought up as a noble in a human-based chivalrous society. Sure, you could contrive a reason that barely holds water or say "Just deal with it, they did", but to me that seems like a lazy way out, not the way I'd want to play.
Games should be tailored around the characters, otherwise you just feel like replaceable cannon fodder, and when you're in danger you don't really care because you can just roll up another halfling rogue, since all you really have to do is go stab this minotaur in the back at the end of some nameless dungeon. But if the party is willing to explore what it means to be a Gnoll, a Druid in an advancing world, a Sorcerer with no wisdom to contain his abilities, then the characters become precious and the stories memorable.
Games should be tailored around the characters, otherwise you just feel like replaceable cannon fodder, and when you're in danger you don't really care because you can just roll up another halfling rogue, since all you really have to do is go stab this minotaur in the back at the end of some nameless dungeon. But if the party is willing to explore what it means to be a Gnoll, a Druid in an advancing world, a Sorcerer with no wisdom to contain his abilities, then the characters become precious and the stories memorable.
In other words, the game is not worth playing if it's not fun to play.
For some people, the lack of proper investment in a character will result in a boring game.
Absolutely. Halflingrogue XII the first level halfling rogue is a crap character. It is just that in my experience, someone playing a gnoll is far more likely than someone playing a halfling to play such a character (Gnollbarb XXIV the first level gnoll barbarian). Add to this the problem with people choosing, or making specially tailored, races to min-max the system even further, and it's usually better to limit things. As I said, a bard doesn't need to play a race with +6 Charisma (or corresponding bonuses to all social skills). What it does is push the DCs up so high that you end up in the situation that you get auto-success for the specialist and auto-fail for everyone else, which again limits interaction, just like tailoring encounters for a supremely optimized character means killing all the other characters.
As long as we're not talking half-pleroma magma slurks, however, I am willing to listen.
EDIT: For clarity.
Absolutely. Halflingrogue XII the first level halfling rogue is a crap character. It is just that in my experience, someone playing a gnoll is far more likely than someone playing a halfling to play such a character (Gnollbarb XXIV the first level gnoll barbarian). Add to this the problem with people choosing, or making specially tailored, races to min-max the system even further, and it's usually better to limit things.
As long as we're not talking half-pleroma magma slurks, however, I am willing to listen.
Well, I suppose it comes down to trust in the player that they are playing a exotic species for a reason other than stats, which is why I let the GM handle whatever stats they think would be right for Gnolls when I make one.
Also it's super late and I'm running on chocolate and anger at Apple for making me answer so many damn security questions to buy one app, so I should probably go to bed for now.
The way I see it, your character is far more than your race and class. You have a history, a personality, preferences, uncertainties, secrets, desires, hobbies, religion, views of the world, views of yourself, hopes, fears, and so on and so forth. All these things are, or may be, influenced by your race and class... but it is those things, not your race and class, that define your role and interactions you have. And... none of these absolutely require you to play a particularly weird race.
Those things are all nice and very good to have (I very much attempt to have most if not all of those for all the characters I make), but your role and your interactions can be massively affected by which class and race you play if everyone is role-playing proficiently.
The human Paladin or Wizard is not in the least going to have the same interactions as the half-orc Paladin or Wizard.
You're not going to have that same level of interaction variance if one human Paladin secretly can't swim, while the other human Paladin has a knitting hobby.
No, but if both paladins' hobbies are "converting for my god and defeating evil in a paladin-like manner", that is pretty grating. I'd take not swimming and knitting any day.
As long as we're not talking half-pleroma magma slurks, however, I am willing to listen.
How about an all-female race of humanoids with the horns, ears, tail and hooves of a bovine?
You know, like a harpy, except instead of a more human-looking tengu you'd imagine a more human-looking minotaur.
Before you ask, I have an explanation as to how this race came to existence. The character itself I could also detail if that is needed here.
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As long as we're not talking half-pleroma magma slurks, however, I am willing to listen.How about an all-female race of humanoids with the horns, ears, tail and hooves of a bovine?
You know, like a harpy, except instead of a more human-looking tengu you'd imagine a more human-looking minotaur.
Before you ask, I have an explanation as to how this race came to existence. The character itself I could also detail if that is needed here.
That is just likely to get a knee jerk reaction to the fetish fuel they will guess that to be. much like the people that want to play the loli character will give some folks a squiky feeling
If "fetish fuel" is the reason, I guess that means a lot of things have to be banned, many iconic creatures included.
"Oh no, that one guy is into monster girls! I have to ban every female Gnoll, Orc, Harpy, Hag, ... and Ratfolk to save the game!"
Knee jerk reactions are often a sign of ignorance. The flamefest on a certain LGBT thread just proved that true a few days ago.
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If "fetish fuel" is the reason, I guess that means a lot of things have to be banned, many iconic creatures included.
"Oh no, that one guy is into monster girls! I have to ban every female Gnoll, Orc, Harpy, Hag, ... and Ratfolk to save the game!"
Knee jerk reactions are often a sign of ignorance. The flamefest on a certain LGBT thread just proved that true a few days ago.
Im just saying that the cowgirl is a very specific monster girl fetish icon so that is what many people will jump to, the same that no few will think little more than "furry" at the thought of a catfolk, kitsune etc. You will just have to fight that perception if you want to play those things
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I'm well aware of how ignorant / stupid people can be. It's part of my job.
I'm currently playing a tiefling paladin of Ragathiel in Jade Regent. He's 68 years old, has spent the last 68 years growing up in a paladin chapter house in Magnimar, and hasn't had a lot of experience with the world at large.
He's used to people judging him based on his appearance due to how people in Magnimar treat him, but his age lets him move beyond how people react and shrug it off. By the same token, he shrugs off other people's appearance, and makes decisions on how to treat them based on their actual actions, not their appearance.
He's been sent to Sandpoint along with an Aasimar cleric of Sarenrae to investigate the attacks by goblins. They meet up with some travelers from Tien who are searching for a missing caravan and they all go into the swamp.
Eventually the get to the goblin village, and while searching it, my Paladin opens up a door and finds the first of the goblins. There are 3 goblins in the room, and their first reaction is to start throwing garbage at him and screaming in goblin (he actually speaks goblin). Now, because they are throwing garbage and screaming in fear, unlike a human Paladin who might just go on the attack, my Paladin, because he's a tiefling and has grown up shrugging things like this off, and making decisions based on people's actions, not their appearance, he ignores the garbage being flung at him and begins talking to the in goblin, mixing threats and calm dialog to make a diplomacy check. He talks them down to neutral position and gets some information from them on what happened.
When he opens the next door (in sight of the 3 goblins), there are 5 more who begin attacking him with weapons. Judging them on their actions, he kills 1, and his allies kill 3 others (the 5th one surrendering). The first 3 are now cowed, having seen their village mates killed with no real fuss.
Despite some of the party wanting to kill all the goblins (for the reward), the paladin takes a principled stand that it is wrong to kill for money, as that makes you a paid assassin. He explains (diplomacy) to the PCs that the real problem is the goblin king, and just like a snake, if they cut off the head, the rest of the goblins will return to being a minor issue as they were the previous hundred years.
He then tricks the surrendered goblin into 'hiding with the king', and they all watch where he goes to hide. Once they know where the king is, they attack the main building, and since he won't be captured kill the goblin king. They end up only killing 9 goblins total, including the king, rather than wiping out the entire village. And they don't have to get into the can of worms of goblin children because of it.
And that mindset is because of his background and race. His age and high wisdom letting him use his background to be a peacemaker, despite his tiefling blood and demonic appearance.
So to me, his race is an integral part of his personality and history.
So, to me, race should absolutely be part of your personality and history. It shouldn't be all of it, but it should be a significant part of it.
If you ban all exotic races, and they complain because all of them wanted to play an exotic race, this is a good sign they were not interested in a "no exotic races" campaign to start with, but you forced one down their throats because that's what you (and no one else) wants.The GM "forced" a campaign "down their throats"? What sort of gulag are these players living in that they are chained to the table and only given food and water if they dance for the GM?
The GM says, "Here's the campaign I want to run." Any player who then makes a character for that campaign is willfully agreeing to play in that campaign. (Assuming the GM isn't the "surprise, you're all were-tigers" guy who tricks you into playing by not telling you what the campaign is really about. And even then, you can leave at any time if you aren't having fun.)
There's no gun to the players' heads. Any or all of them can walk away or sit it out if the campaign doesn't sound fun. No one can "force" a campaign "down their throats" simply by offering to run a campaign a given way.
Good job ignoring everything else I said.
In the end, someone has to be the GM. No matter who it is, he/she shouldn't decide everything on his/her own.
The GM always has the final word, but not even pausing to listen what the players have to say is bad GMing, IMHO. And this goes for everything, including, but not limited to race selection. You don't have to allow everything, but you shouldn't ban stuff without a second thought just out of personal preference either. You can, but you shouldn't. That's my whole point.
...A lot of the comments about "what if all of them want to play only elves" and such were not directed toward my players, but people in this discussion claiming categorically that if I do not allow ALL POSSIBLE RACES, I am a bad GM. Yes, I agree that that's a pretty spoiled 6-year-old attitude, that is why I answered the way I did.
And by the way, you have an
Isn't a playe insisting that they HAVE to play that race or they can't play ALSO 'my way or the highway"?
You also occasionally run into the issue of "Dwarves are vikings who live underground. All Dwarves have beards. You're doing it wrong if you don't do that." and "Elves are pretty boys who shoot bows. Why aren't you shooting a bow and why does your Elf have low Charisma?".
Oh holy crap yes.
Whenever a GM or a fellow player tells me how to roleplay my character, I instantly want to slap them in such a way that Moe Howard would be in awe of it. No, my dwarf does NOT attack goblins on sight. No, my elf is NOT a snooty arrogant schmuck. No, my halfling does NOT overeat. And so on and so forth.This is exactly the reason I love playing Half-Orcs. I never play them as the ugly, brainless, roid-raging barbarian that most people shoe-horn them into.
I hate being shoe-horned, especially into a selection of races, which really limits what I can do in terms of interesting characters.
Not having a few options is not the same as not having options.