1) Detect Magic only lets you know that magic is in the works; it doesn't let you "see" or "hear" the magic, you're opening up a 6th sense. So, while Detect Magic may advise a person that there is magic afoot, and illusion magic specifically if they spend all 3 rounds and make their check, they'll just know that there is illusion magic present in a particular area; they still can't "see" the invisible object or creature and, thus, still suffer concealment miss chance when trying to hit it and, in the case of a creature, you are still denied your dex bonus if it tries to attack you, even if you know an invisible creature is there. Conversely, See Invisibility actually lets you perceive the invisible creature or object rather than just detect it. The lead won't block the magic detection of the invisibility spell because the lead producing its own magical field to detect. It will still block any magical auras encased within it, but if someone cast Detect Magic in the vicinity, the progression of rounds would show 1) There's magic here 2) There's 1 magic thing here 3a) There's 1 magic right here *points* but I don't know what kind 3b) There's 1 magic right here *points* and it's illusion magic 3c) There's 1 magic thing right here *points* and it's illusion magic that has the properties of an Invisibility spell.
2) Regarding the properties of Invisibility, keep in mind that it's a Glamour type illusion spell; it messes with your perceptions. Our brains function by making an incredible number of assumptions about our sensory input; this is why we experience optical illusions and the color magenta (it has no real corresponding wavelength of light). Illusions, particularly glamours, take advantage of this by causing very specific sensory experiences that cause sensory illusions. So, when a person looks at an invisible object, the eyes will see it, but the brain ends up processing as if it weren't there. But, even if an object is invisible, you still have a chance to detect it via perception check. This is because the brain, in determining that nothing is there, is expecting to see what's behind, under it, etc. But you can't... the actual images are blocked from getting to your eye, and your brain insists that it is seeing them. So, it makes assumptions. It knows what grass looks like and it can see around the object, so it makes the best educated guess as to what's behind and under the box. And when it guesses wrong, when something doesn't match up, if you are wise and perceptive enough, you can tell that something is wrong in the same way that you can tell that the "water" flooding a hot street isn't really water but a mirage. So, if something is completely hidden behind an invisible object and you didn't know before hand that it was there, you wouldn't perceive it. But if there are invisible bars that you can see around well enough, your brain can easily "fill in the blanks" and you have no trouble seeing the whole person behind them, though any small motions they make like sleight of hand could have a higher DC to pick up on due to the possibility of them happening, technically, out of sight. In the case of a door, you'd probably just see continuous wall because that's the best assumption the brain will make in the situation; you wouldn't be able to "see through" to the other side as if it weren't there because you don't know what's on the other side and the brain has no material to work with.
3) Regarding being inside an invisible box, the whole box is invisible in the same way that the door is invisible, but without any sensory input to "guess" what's on the outside, a person sitting inside an invisible box would probably be totally tripping out as the brain comes up with very interesting plausible assumptions to explain the information it's receiving from the combination of actual perceptions and the invisibility glamour. For example, knowing what it looked like before you entered, the brain could retain the general shape and form of the landscape, but from there it will be based on very subjective assumptions. Your view of day and night, for example, would follow your own perceptions of time rather than objective passage of time so if you get preoccupied and "think" that hours have passed, your brain may tell you that it's already sunset or night when, in actuality, it's only a quarter past noon. All your beliefs and dogmas and misconceptions would suddenly come to life and everything that you "think" happens in the world would, to your perception, actually be happening; you may see animals and birds that aren't real, people do things because you "think" that's what they would do, etc. What you wouldn't be able to do would be observe perfectly the goings on outside the box as if you were inside a box made of non-refracting glass. So if something unexpected happens outside, you couldn't detect it directly and, if purely visual, you wouldn't even know it. If you got auditory or tactile input, your brain would come up with a story as if in a dream to explain the things you're hearing and feeling to the best of its ability, for better or for worse. Again, totally tripping out.
If you make a lead box invisible, can detect magic detect the illusion, or does the lead block it? If I were standing inside the invisible lead box, could people outside of it see me? Could their divinations detect me?
Why or why not?
Detect magic can detect the illusion. But the detector still can't see the box(total concealment), and it takes a few rounds to locate the aura.
The lead would not block the detect magic spell because it's not between the detector and effect(the box). Just like locate object can locate objects made of lead(which is how one finds hidden magic stuff).
Whether or not you are visible inside the box would depend on how the original caster of the invisibility spell made it; so either
1) you are not visible from outside the box and you can't see out, because the original caster wanted an invisible box to hide stuff inside - hence the choice of lead to block divinations. Or
2) you are visible from outside the box and you can see out, because the original caster wanted an invisible and protective box that didn't limit battlefield overview, the choice of lead was made to ensure a heavy wall for impact if somebody should run at you. And also in case somebody with some permanent locate person divination might dismiss you as an illusion, since she can see you, but not otherwise detect your presence.
Their divinations could not detect you due to the lead between you and them, but normal sight might, as stated above.
@ Ravingdork That reminds me of a trap I had in one of my campaigns before (well it was but wasn't...)
Spoiler:
So the party was exploring an old dwarven mine. In the entrance was an old part of the floor that was designed to open up so a winch could be used to bring things out of the lower floors without having to carry it throughout the complex. The winch was the sort that rolled into the next room because who wanted that in the way the rest of the time?
Anyways the place was old so the parts holding the trapdoor for the lift were in bad repair. If more than two people were on them at a time then they would give way partially causing the floor to become difficult terrain (due to the slant) and possibly knock those on it prone (DC 14 Reflex save). The DC to see the trap was 15. In the same room were three medium centipedes. The room was 30 by 20 with the entrance centered on the south wall a short wall 5 feet in front of that spanning 20 feet leaving a five foot walk around on each side (in case of an invasion it served as a bottleneck).
Door on the east wall lead to the winch mechanism, door on the west lead to a small guard room.
Even if I were to accept that the weight limit only applies to objects (which I don't at the moment) do you have any idea how much weight we are talking about? I snooped around the internet and one of presumable 6 sides of a 5 ft square box with 3 inch thick granite walls weighs in at a little over 1000 lbs. That's a 3 TON box prior to adding any lead sheeting (which comes in at several pounds a square foot when a mere 1 mm thick.
And for fun:
some calculations:
A lead box (i.e. made entirely of lead) with dimensions of 30inx30inx1in (2.5 ft square) weighs in at a little (~200 lbs) over 1 ton. If this box were made of something else and that was merely lead sheet lining the box that lining adds just under 90 lbs to the total. Or about 350 lbs of lead sheeting to line your 5x5x5 box with 1 mm thick lead. If the 5 ft sq box you are lining is made of 1/2 inch thick 'plywood' the wood portion weighs in at ~250 lbs. So doable as a 5x5x5 box with 1/2 inch thick wood walls and lined with lead sheeting 1 mm thick for a 6th level wizard. Solid oak 1/2 inch thick walls are slightly more weight and would require a 7th level wizard :p No entry for calculating if it was made of balsa wood (though one could calculate if for several types of plastic):D
That's why you make the box out of wood or other lighter material, then coat it in lead paint. ^_^
Yep, but then you have a fairly fragile box and certainly not one prone to injuring a Monk's fist or a Fighter's Adamantine Sword when they strike it. Note also Sequester does not have a weight limit but a volume limit. Even the 'paint' would have to leave a notable film of lead behind enough probably to be considered a 1 mm sheet to really do the job. Sloppy painting might lead to gaps in protection.
Now take the box use, Sovereign Glue and adhere it into the 5x5x5 cube you cut out of the ceiling and Sequester the box (and place the Lich's phylactery inside, waaaait who said anything about a Lich? :p). That ought to be one tough box to find even while flying and using touch.
EDIT: Of course Sequester might just make the use of lead redundant but then redundancy is usually a good thing in those who are paranoid (or safety conscious)
Duh,
Everything in an invisible container is invisible per the spell, as someone pointed out. So, cast invisibility on a collossal sack (should be in weight limit even at low levels), then put the sack over the lead box. :)
Fireballs will be an issue, obviously, but the ton of lead is now invisible. :)
Everything in an invisible container is invisible per the spell, as someone pointed out. So, cast invisibility on a collossal sack (should be in weight limit even at low levels), then put the sack over the lead box. :)
Fireballs will be an issue, obviously, but the ton of lead is now invisible. :)
No duh,
Items picked up by a creature disappear IF they are tucked away, this doesn't necessarily translate to everything in an invisible container is invisible.
Everything in an invisible container is invisible per the spell, as someone pointed out. So, cast invisibility on a collossal sack (should be in weight limit even at low levels), then put the sack over the lead box. :)
Fireballs will be an issue, obviously, but the ton of lead is now invisible. :)
No duh,
Items picked up by a creature disappear IF they are tucked away, this doesn't necessarily translate to everything in an invisible container is invisible.
I'm thinking though maybe not a "duh" it's an accurate thought. Casting it on the sack specifically is different from say a Storm Giant casting invisibility on himself then tossing his sack aside and expecting it to remain invisible. At worst the GM may rule that the sack AND contents need to be within the weight limits.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
mdt wrote:
Duh,
Everything in an invisible container is invisible per the spell, as someone pointed out. So, cast invisibility on a collossal sack (should be in weight limit even at low levels), then put the sack over the lead box. :)
Fireballs will be an issue, obviously, but the ton of lead is now invisible. :)
What I want to know is that, given that the above is true, how is it that casting invisibility on a prison cell's door allows me to see the occupants of the cell, or the room for that matter? Would it not all be invisible, and masked by the invisible door? Surely I'm using the exact same logic you are.
Everything in an invisible container is invisible per the spell, as someone pointed out. So, cast invisibility on a collossal sack (should be in weight limit even at low levels), then put the sack over the lead box. :)
Fireballs will be an issue, obviously, but the ton of lead is now invisible. :)
What I want to know is that, given that the above is true, how is it that casting invisibility on a prison cell's door allows me to see the occupants of the cell, or the room for that matter? Would it not all be invisible, and masked by the invisible door? Surely I'm using the exact same logic you are.
Hey, I was told objects put into an invisible container are invisible (see up thread). If you don't like the logic, argue with the guy who originally claimed it. I've stopped telling my version of the rules, as nobody on the board seems to want to actually follow the rules. So from now on I'm going to agree to everyone's interpretation, and follow it down the logical conclusion. Not my fault they all seem to lead to incredibly silly results.
Besides, the door is not a container. It's a lid to a container. The cell is the container. So bad example on your part.
Everything in an invisible container is invisible per the spell, as someone pointed out. So, cast invisibility on a collossal sack (should be in weight limit even at low levels), then put the sack over the lead box. :)
Fireballs will be an issue, obviously, but the ton of lead is now invisible. :)
What I want to know is that, given that the above is true, how is it that casting invisibility on a prison cell's door allows me to see the occupants of the cell, or the room for that matter? Would it not all be invisible, and masked by the invisible door? Surely I'm using the exact same logic you are.
Or maybe it's due to a difference in the prison cell door imagined by two different people over the internet.
1) A small, heavy metal banded (reinforced) solid wood door with a small barred and shuttered window all set into a solid stone dungeon wall. Normally I haven't a prayer of seeing anything in the cell without peering through the shuttered window. If the door is made invisible (assuming it fits within the weight limit :)) then I should be able to see into the cell beyond. If not (the door is lead lined or something) then I'd say that is a pretty good indication that something unusual is afoot ... and what do I actually see in that case? Does my mind, since this is an illusion, "create" the scene I expect and show my an empty cell or the village drunk or whatever I'm expecting?
OR
2) The type of prison door on a cell like you often see in western's i.e. the 'wall' is made of spaced metal bars into which a metal door, also made of bars, is set. Normally I can pretty much see the entire contents of the cell even when standing some distance from the room. When the cell door is rendered invisible do I start to wonder if I've walked onto the set of "Support Your Local Sheriff" and I just see a cell with no door and a prisoner? sitting inside.
RD posited that casting the invisibility on the door would make the prisoners invisible, since he considered the door to be a container, rather than the cell beyond it.
Or maybe it's due to a difference in the prison cell door imagined by two different people over the internet.
1) A small, heavy metal banded (reinforced) solid wood door with a small barred and shuttered window all set into a solid stone dungeon wall. Normally I haven't a prayer of seeing anything in the cell without peering through the shuttered window. If the door is made invisible (assuming it fits within the weight limit :)) then I should be able to see into the cell beyond. If not (the door is lead lined or something) then I'd say that is a pretty good indication that something unusual is afoot ... and what do I actually see in that case? Does my mind, since this is an illusion, "create" the scene I expect and show my an empty cell or the village drunk or whatever I'm expecting?
OR
2) The type of prison door on a cell like you often see in western's i.e. the 'wall' is made of spaced metal bars into which a metal door, also made of bars, is set. Normally I can pretty much see the entire contents of the cell even when standing some distance from the room. When the cell door is rendered invisible do I start to wonder if I've walked onto the set of "Support Your Local Sheriff" and I just see a cell with no door and a prisoner? sitting inside.
OR
I'm not following something.
Again, see my explanation up-thread. In the case of prison door A being a normal, solid door and you couldn't otherwise see into the cell, invisibility on that door would make it invisible in such a way that you just see continuous wall because that's what the brain would expect. For prison door B being made of bars and you can normally see through it even without invisibility, the spell won't cover the person in the cell, but it will give them an advantage in small actions like sleight of hand in that they might happen to perform it behind one of the actual bars and the brain, lacking the data to make a reasonable assumption, won't realize what they're doing; so I'd say a +5 to sleight of hand in such a situation. The bars would also provide partial cover, maybe even more so than normal because you don't know exactly where they are.
