Bring back the good old days

[Hadesblade]

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

[markofbane]

Interesting. It sounds like you are posing it as an either/or proposition. I think Paizo has done an admirable job blending the two, stories and inclusion. And I find periodic references to the LGBT community in stories helps give it a more realistic feel. A fantasy world is almost always a mundane world like ours (with gravity, tides, trees, climates, humans, etc.) layered over with exotic and fanciful elements (magic, monsters, elves, etc.). The better the mundane elements are shown, the easier it is to suspend disbelief of the mystical elements. I find that this is generally done well here.

[Lamontius]

storytelling vs social responsibility
the new either/or stormwind fallacy

[Tequila Sunrise]

I take it there must be a gay NPC in the new AP?

[Auxmaulous]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

Your best bet it to just vote with your wallet and not buy the content.

I have my own issues with the overly PC nature of the material, but if you feel it's distracting you can omit or change it. If not, just don't buy it.

I am curious to see where all this goes as time progresses - who and what are considered good guys/good actions (re: liberalism = good, conservatism = bad). Will they have LGBT serial killers, rapist or BBEG depictions? Will LGBT issues or gender identity ever be portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil? Honestly, I don't know.

For the most part it does seems like Paizo is just trying to cater to part of their fan base while simultaneously expressing their own personal views via content. I personally don't think it's a good idea if the writer cannot maintain some level of impartiality when creating characters/plots/scenarios and then they start injecting modern worldviews and politics. If they can write content without injecting personal views, great - if not, then it just becomes a soapbox to present their worldview and I get enough of that every day already. I don't know if Paizo is at the soapbox level yet, though I do see it sliding in that direction as more content is released.

I also think some of the decisions this company makes with regard to content does alienate more right/conservative minded gamers, but I don't think that they really care about tbh. They can probably survive quite well without them or their dollars. Posting here is probably a bad idea and you can get you listed pretty quick (I'm on a few). Just be a bit pickier about what product you will or will not support via purchases.

TL;DR - Don't expect them to change things to cater to what you want, they are going to release what they want. Vote with your dollars.

[thejeff]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

What game content from the '80s do you think stacks up to what Paizo's producing today? Regardless of LGBT content, the APs in particular really much better developed story wise than anything I remember from that era. Certainly better on average.

Some of the old adventures are classic for difficulty or for concept, but "good stories" isn't how I remember them.

[hogarth]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion".

And we used to eat deviled eggs and drive around like speed demons -- excuse me, I mean baatezued eggs and speed tanar'ris.

[Ross Byers]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

I thought the 80's were about banishing the words 'devil', 'daemon', and 'demon' due to pressure from religious groups. Is caving to political pressure a political statement?

[Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal]

Tequila Sunrise wrote:

I take it there must be a gay NPC in the new AP?

Actually, it's a couple. One of whom is trans as well. It caused a smidge of a kerflufle over in the discussion thread about the AP issue.

[Ross Byers]

Damnit hogarth! If you're going to ninja me, at least don't be funnier than me.

[Trizar]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

Is this the same 80's / early 90's where RPG games where considered to be satanic?

[Ross Byers]

Auxmaulous wrote:

Will they have LGBT serial killers, rapist or BBEG depictions? Will LGBT issues or gender identity ever be portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil? Honestly, I don't know.

Trying to avoid too many spoilers, but have you seen the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP?

[Auxmaulous]

Ross Byers wrote:

I thought the 80's were about banishing the words 'devil', 'daemon', and 'demon' due to pressure from religious groups. Is caving to political pressure a political statement?

I think that was more about the games survival that a political statement. I don't know if you were around gaming back then Ross, but there was plenty of pressure on gamers due to the perceived offensive content. I think the change was just to take some heat (tied to a few crimes and suicides) off of TSRs back.

[thejeff]

Auxmaulous wrote:

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

Your best bet it to just vote with your wallet and not buy the content.

I have my own issues with the overly PC nature of the material, but if you feel it's distracting you can omit or change it. If not, just don't buy it.

I am curious to see where all this goes as time progresses - who and what are considered good guys/good actions (re: liberalism = good, conservatism = bad). Will they have LGBT serial killers, rapist or BBEG depictions? Will LGBT issues or gender identity ever be portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil? Honestly, I don't know.

For the most part it does seems like Paizo is just trying to cater to part of their fan base while simultaneously expressing their own personal views via content. I personally don't think it's a good idea if the writer cannot maintain some level of impartiality when creating characters/plots/scenarios and then they start injecting modern worldviews and politics. If they can write content without injecting personal views, great - if not, then it just becomes a soapbox to present their worldview and I get enough of that every day already. I don't know if Paizo is at the soapbox level yet, though I do see it sliding in that direction as more content is released.

Has Paizo really done anything with "liberal/conservative" other than racial and LGBT inclusiveness? I don't recall any focus on Big Government programs or entitlements or any other real world political issues.

I doubt you're going to see "liberalism = good, conservatism = bad", other than in a "prejudice=bad" sense.
I don't know about serial killers or rapists. How often do either show up in adventures?

[Ross Byers]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion".

And I can't wait for the future, when a character (or person) being LGBT won't be considered a 'political statement'.

[LazarX]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

Yes! Lets bring back classics like Fantasy RolePlay. (The only acceptable profession for female characters is in a Nunnery) Lets bring back the old style of drawings so that you can easily tell the good races as they are white with outline and the evil races are all drawn dark. Lets have our games not dispel our happily illusion that the world is really still a white man's paradise, where men are men and female characters are properly dressed in chain mail bikinis.

[Auxmaulous]

Ross Byers wrote:

Auxmaulous wrote:

Will they have LGBT serial killers, rapist or BBEG depictions? Will LGBT issues or gender identity ever be portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil? Honestly, I don't know.

Trying to avoid too many spoilers, but have you seen the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP?

I purchased it as it came out, does sexual orientation factor into action or behavior in that one? No. Does sexual preference or the choices made around that preference? No.

I know who the bad guy is in that one, orientation is just window dressing – not a factor.

Jeff, spoiler your CoCT points, everyone here who has it (and DMs) knows what Ross was getting at.

[Gorbacz]

I don't know, we were busy getting beaten up and shot by communist government's riot police while you all were dealing with "serious" issues such as "are games satanic?" or "can a True Christian play an elf and still keep his soul pure?".

[LazarX]

Ross Byers wrote:

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion".

And I can't wait for the future, when a character (or person) being LGBT won't be considered a 'political statement'.

You and I will not live to see that future. If we're intensely fortunate, our great grandchildren just might.

[Scott Betts]

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion". Adventures where fun because they where written on good stories and wasn't out to step on people's toes. I was really disappointed with the new adventure path but negativity to the LBGT community is frowned upon here. Sorry but I think the focus should be on good adventures and great stories, not political statements and inclusion. If that puts me in the minority here so be it.

So brave.

[Laithoron]

After reading the OP's cancellation post in the customer service forum (which was made a couple hours before they started this thread), it seems pretty clear that they've already made their financial choice. I'm guessing that this thread is to garner affirmation of that decision.

While an individual is obviously free to think and spend as they choose, I find it a paradox that someone can feel threatened and excluded by attempts at inclusiveness — especially towards those who have traditionally been marginalized. It stinks to me of a bully suddenly playing the victim when they are stood-up to.

Furthermore, as someone who was raised Christian, I find it deplorable that many of those who tout their "Christian morals" deem it more important to let fear and hatred define their public stances (esp towards LGBTs) rather than love and acceptance. IMO, that 'brand' of values that seems to focus solely on the negative has done more to harm Christianity than anyone striving for equal legal and social standing. That kind of irks me.

[ThatEvilGuy]

Inorite? If we don't take a stand against including the gays in our adventures, THIS will come to pass!

[thejeff]

LazarX wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Hadesblade wrote:

Really miss the 80's when game content wasn't about making political statements or "inclusion".

And I can't wait for the future, when a character (or person) being LGBT won't be considered a 'political statement'.

You and I will not live to see that future. If we're intensely fortunate, our great grandchildren just might.

Honestly, this is changing incredibly fast. Much faster than racism. I'd guess their timeline is about right - and there will still be people complaining about blacks voting when gay marriage isn't an issue.

[Gorbacz]

ThatEvilGuy wrote:

Inorite? If we don't take a stand against including the gays in our adventures, THIS will come to pass!

Oh, you silly Americans, still stuck on phase 1 of The Agenda.

Us dirty Europeans are on phase 2.

[thejeff]

Auxmaulous wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Auxmaulous wrote:

Will they have LGBT serial killers, rapist or BBEG depictions? Will LGBT issues or gender identity ever be portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil? Honestly, I don't know.

Trying to avoid too many spoilers, but have you seen the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP?

I purchased it as it came out, does sexual orientation factor into action or behavior in that one? No. Does sexual preference or the choices made around that preference? No.

I know who the bad guy is in that one, orientation is just window dressing – not a factor.

Jeff, spoiler your CoCT points, everyone here who has it (and DMs) knows what Ross was getting at.

Removed, since I was ninja'd while writing it anyway.

So for you, it has to not only be an evil LGBT character, but their evil has to be driven by their sexual preference/gender orientation? That's a pretty tall order. How many straight/cis villains has Paizo used where that was a driving factor in their villainy?

How often have heterosexual issues or gender identity been portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil in Paizo's products?

Or other conservative issues, if you'd rather? Do we need some black villains whose evil is driven by their race?

[ThatEvilGuy]

thejeff wrote:

Auxmaulous wrote:

Ross Byers wrote:

Auxmaulous wrote:

Will they have LGBT serial killers, rapist or BBEG depictions? Will LGBT issues or gender identity ever be portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil? Honestly, I don't know.

Trying to avoid too many spoilers, but have you seen the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP?

I purchased it as it came out, does sexual orientation factor into action or behavior in that one? No. Does sexual preference or the choices made around that preference? No.

I know who the bad guy is in that one, orientation is just window dressing – not a factor.

Jeff, spoiler your CoCT points, everyone here who has it (and DMs) knows what Ross was getting at.

Removed, since I was ninja'd while writing it anyway.

So for you, it has to not only be an evil LGBT character, but their evil has to be driven by their sexual preference/gender orientation? That's a pretty tall order. How many straight/cis villains has Paizo used where that was a driving factor in their villainy?

How often have heterosexual issues or gender identity been portrayed in a negative light/tied to BBEG/acts of evil in Paizo's products?

Or other conservative issues, if you'd rather? Do we need some black villains whose evil is driven by their race?

*cough*DROW*cough*

[TOZ]

So does this make it okay for us to boycott Orson Scott Card?

[Ross Byers]

thejeff wrote:

You and I will not live to see that future. If we're intensely fortunate, our great grandchildren just might.

Honestly, this is changing incredibly fast. Much faster than racism. I'd guess their timeline is about right - and there will still be people complaining about blacks voting when gay marriage isn't an issue.

I think this is because someone can't suddenly 'come out' as black: an old white bigot isn't suddenly going to find out his son is black the same way as he might find out he is gay. Harvey Milk was right that people turn out to be in favor of gay rights when they know they have friends and relations that are gay: it is a lot harder to vilify 'the other' than 'Steve'.

However, it is nice no one bother to get angry over the fact that the gay/trans couple under discussion is also interracial.

[thejeff]

ThatEvilGuy wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Or other conservative issues, if you'd rather? Do we need some black villains whose evil is driven by their race?

*cough*DROW*cough*

Not at all the same thing.

[Chris Lambertz]

Locking thread. We already have a thread that discusses LGBT characters in Golarion as well as a thread discussion LGBT issues in the real world. Please note that on paizo.com language that makes any bigoted, hateful or racially offensive statements is not acceptable. We understand that individual community members have different points of view on many topics, however, I'm not sure the intent of this thread will result in positive or constructive discussion. If you have further questions or concerns, please contact [e-mail].