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Surprisingly to me, this module is noticeably below WBL for a four player character party. Excluding artifacts (because you can't price them), each player would get something around 72k gold less than what normal WBL between levels 15-18 would be. Not that ir is a huge loss, since the WBL in modules 2-4 was so grossly oversized that the party still is 200k over WBL per character. ^^
I'll have to put some loot into the module, though, to keep my six player party on the up and up.
Both my groups are oversized for the AP as well (6 and 7 players), so I've been modifying the hell out of everything. I've recently begun to hand out custom special items to the non-paladins as well, partially so that everyone has some cool toys, and partially to preemptively adjust for loot variances from the larger parties. This way I don't have to worry about giving out as much new gear, and just keep the coins flowing. I'm hoping this won't swing things too far towards the Monty Haul end of things.
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Listening to this, maybe?This explains so much, but now I just imagine her on a couch, in a corner of her cathedral. Sitting in her pyjamas, ice cream in one hand, a glass of wine on the other, she sits crying and watching the heroes fight her fallen herold.She was probably down in the local god-bar bragging about the new minions she's got doing what she wants in the Worldwound, when she got an unfortunate prayer call about a missing Herald. After being laughed out of the bar by the other gods for the third time this sort of thing has happened to her ("Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times...") she retreated to her cathedral to sulk, smash things, generally throw a tantrum, and then decided that she was going to get her minions to get her Herald back. Or kill him and she'll have one of them instead.
Exactly! I mean how do you misplace your Herald? I'd be like thanks but not thanks. Good luck on finding a new schmuck!
Pretty much, but I was thinking about something slightly more emo ^^
Modest Mouse can be pretty dark and trippy :)
thats what i would listen to in that example
She was probably down in the local god-bar bragging about the new minions she's got doing what she wants in the Worldwound, when she got an unfortunate prayer call about a missing Herald. After being laughed out of the bar by the other gods for the third time this sort of thing has happened to her ("Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me three times...") she retreated to her cathedral to sulk, smash things, generally throw a tantrum, and then decided that she was going to get her minions to get her Herald back. Or kill him and she'll have one of them instead.So you're saying the PCs shouldn't take on the duties of Iomedae's Herald at the end of this book then, right? :D
Then much like what happened to Arazni, the Hand is corrupted to the side of evil.So yeah Iomedae is bad luck on Heralds.
Exactly! I mean how do you misplace your Herald? I'd be like thanks but not thanks. Good luck on finding a new schmuck!
This explains so much, but now I just imagine her on a couch, in a corner of her cathedral. Sitting in her pyjamas, ice cream in one hand, a glass of wine on the other, she sits crying and watching the heroes fight her fallen herold.
This scenario either ends with her jumping of up and high fiving everyone in the cathedral… or Iomedae trying to bury her guilt and sadness until the PCs either kill or drive away Baphomet.Once that is done, and the PCs have returned, a drunk (with joy, wine, and ice cream) Iomedae (still in her pyjamas) hugs the PCs and wants to make them all herolds^^
This is so hilariously out of character. I love it. <3
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When I was tailoring Wake of the Watcher, from the Carrion Crown AP, for my group I read something on here by someone that resonated, and I hung onto the idea.
I apologise to the person who came up with the original idea of ley-lines and how Tar-Baphon's imprisonment is linked to them because I can't remember who it was! But what I ended up going with, in terms of mythology, was tied in with the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones.
Essentially, the reason the gods don't directly interfere with Golarion isn't anything to do with an agreement...it's that the awesome power of a god wandering around outside his or her own plane will run a grave risk of disrupting the ley-lines criss-crossing Golarion...and these ley-lines are the thing which stops the return of the Outer Gods.
Nobody...nobody wants, say, Azathoth wandering around the world (except Rovagug, who couldn't care less, which is why all the others united to stop him).
Sooo...bringing this rambling thing back on topic, I think I will have Iomedae explain to the characters precisely why she can't just go get her herald. A god, manifesting in its true form on the Prime Material Plane - or any plane other than her own - is likely to have Yog-Sothoth breathing down its neck in short order...opening the portal to the Outer Gods will make the Worldwound look like a girl-scout convention.
That's why gods use heralds, and avatars, and intermediaries (and wish and miracle spells, for that matter). Her herald is gone. It takes time to manifest an avatar (and an avatar isn't actually all that much more powerful than the PCs anyway) and as far as intermediaries go...well...the PCs are it. Iomedae is essentially asking them to become representatives of her on Golarion.
I won't be having sonic attacks or petulant divine temper-tantrums. Just a worried, saddened goddess asking for help from these heroes who have proved their courage, skill and devotion to good time and time again. There are none more worthy, and she hates to ask them, but if Baphomet keeps her herald evil, well, it'll be like the whole Darth Vader thing, y'know? :)
Plus, as was mentioned upthread, the power she has invested in the creation of a herald is actually being utilised by Baphomet...he is draining a portion of her own power for his own benefit.
Well, I got the last modules PDF just today, so I'll be checking the WBL level of it out in the next days. I'll get back to you when that is done.
He tried to flee. She shanked him anyway. He was in her domain, after all.
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Well, I got the last modules PDF just today, so I'll be checking the WBL level of it out in the next days. I'll get back to you when that is done.Appreciate it, I know my test character just entering part 4 has hit it when she wasn't crafting items with Drezden downtime points (wonder how much extra that would give really since theoretically some of that would best be put into helping Drezden recover?). Instant fortress (55k) + 2 * Blessed Books (25k) + Celestial Armour (21k) + assorted gems and currency (she likes collecting shiny stones and has given up a cut of the gold to get them as her share 21K) + Carpet of flying (20k) = 142k and that's not all. Of course she's had good luck on her rolls and in an actual game I'd probably have given some of these items up in favour of fairness to other players (decanter of endless water when she has mythic sustenance), bag of holding III etc.
Well, here I am with the results. In fact, I'll give WBL levels for all adventures of the AP, since I have them here right before me. My methodology was to take every piece of gear which is sellable with a price at 50% of market price, jewelry, gold and art at 100% and not count artifacts at all.
Here goes:
Total Treasure: 73.945 GP (77.945 if Horgus friendly) (WBL 16.000/Character)
-> 73,945 normal, i.e. 18.500 GP/Character -> 2.500-3.500 over WBL per Character
Sword of Valor Level 6-9
Total Treasure: 241.199 GP (WBL 30.000/Character)
-> i.e 60.300 GP/Character -> 30.300 GP over WBL per Character
Demon’s Heresy Level 9-12
Total Treasure: 810.520 GP (WBL 62.000/Character)
-> i.e 202.630 GP/Character -> 140.000 GP over WBL per Character
The Midnight Isles Level 12-15
Total Treasure: 910.262 GP (WBL 122.000/Character)
-> i.e 227.565 GP/Character -> 105.565 GP over WBL per Character
Herald of the Ivory Labyrinth Level 15-18
Total Treasure: 870.202 GP (WBL 290.000/Character)
-> i.e 217.550 GP/Character -> 72.449 GP under WBL per Character
City of Locusts Level 18-20
Total Treasure: 3.675.002 GP (WBL 350.000/Character)
-> i.e 918.750 GP/Character -> 568.750 GP over WBL per Character
It's of course not accurate to the last gold piece, I surely miscalculated some things a bit and in the last adventure I didn't bother to look up the piddly prices of the base weapons and dropped some 0,5 GP here and there. I hope those numbers help some GM's, though.
Well, crafting can be very fast in WotR, with mythic crafting you can build items at x4 speed (i.e. 4000 GP per day). So I presume that a lot of crafting will be done.
To confirm, those numbers are with respect to the change in WBL, correct?
If so, that means that in the end-game, the characters can be expected to be 772,166 gp over WBL. Which means they will almost be double the WBL for a normal, non-mythic PC without counting any artifacts, the vendor trash, crafting, or items saved (like from recharging wands). Yikes . . .
I am a bit fearful about what this means for my party. There only 3 people, so by my calculations (and assuming you used a 4-person party in your calculations), they will be 1,322,888 gp above WBL by the end, without counting artifacts. The witch in the party is already planning of having a crafting focus. With that wealth advantage, I guess I won't have to worry too much about adjusting encounters down for them.
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Well, I used the new crafting limits from Ultimate Campaign, meaning that the crafters can craft up to 25% over their normal WBL (or 50% if they have more than one crafting feat). That should put some limits on them upping their WBL even more.
Only the percentage with which they are charged. It's pretty easy to calculate in my head, once I know the base price of wands by memory. Just divide that by 100, then multiply by the number of charges left, i.e. 7,5 x charges for level 1, 45 x charges for level 2 and so on.
They did make up a miniscule part of the loot for module six, I can tell you that. ^^
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To confirm, those numbers are with respect to the change in WBL, correct?
If so, that means that in the end-game, the characters can be expected to be 772,166 gp over WBL. Which means they will almost be double the WBL for a normal, non-mythic PC without counting any artifacts, the vendor trash, crafting, or items saved (like from recharging wands). Yikes . . .
I am a bit fearful about what this means for my party. There only 3 people, so by my calculations (and assuming you used a 4-person party in your calculations), they will be 1,322,888 gp above WBL by the end, without counting artifacts. The witch in the party is already planning of having a crafting focus. With that wealth advantage, I guess I won't have to worry too much about adjusting encounters down for them.
Yeah with a 3 person party the treasure is pretty insane all of our characters have in the 900,000gp range for wealth and one of them trashed 125,000gp for 5 wishes.
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I thought you couldn't refill wands...
EDIT: As a matter of fact, you cannot:
The standard rules don't allow item creation feats to recharge charged items such as wands. This is because wands are the most cost-effective form of expendable spellcasting in the game (the minimum price is 15 gp per charge, as compared to a minimum price of 25 gp per use for a scroll or 50 gp per use for a potion). Allowing wand recharging devalues scrolls and potions in the game, especially as using a wand does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A wand's lower price increment would also mean that partially recharging the wand is easily done with a short downtime period (10 charges per day for a 2nd-level wand, 4 per day for a 3rd-level wand, and 2 per day for a 4th-level wand), making the wand even more useful and cost-effective.
A GM who wants to allow wand recharging can require a minimum of 25 charges added to the item to help offset this advantage, as it forces you to spend a larger amount of gold at once instead of smaller amounts more frequently.
Ah gotcha. Never mind, carry on.
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I'd let my players make the staff of wish. But I'd add a x100 surcharge (at least) to the cost of creation...
As for using the Riftwarden trait to abuse wish items, I think I'd just uplift the anti-wish inevitable from 3.5. (And add the advanced template a few times, and some mythic ranks.)
Or, you know, just disallow the use of that part of the trait.
Meh.
A Staff of Wish is base 400x 17 x 9, or 61,200 gp. +1,250,000 gp in material component costs, for 1,311,300 gp
By using 2 charges at a time, total cost is barely affected. Raising charges affects only the base price of 61,200 gp, not the material components cost, which is always 50 uses regardless.
So 2 charges at a time reduces the cost to 1,280,100 gp.
And the only way you can exploit it is to be a Mythic character who can convert mythic power directly into spells, or be a sorcerer with arcane apotheseos.
The characters are going to get inherent bonuses to all stats ANYWAYS. Instead of 1.125 million gp being enough to raise 10 Stats by +5, it's now enough to raise all their stats by +5.
And that's pretty much it for out of character abuse.
Given the sheer amount of money necessary to pull this off, and the time required to make such a thing, it's not going to upset the campaign all that much. Wishes are still subject to DM adjudication if they start getting fancy, and such a mighty staff usable by other mythic characters will be on the wish list of every mythic thief alive.
==Aelryinth
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no. Look at the construction rules.
The divisor comes after you determine base cost. Material component cost is then figured AFTER charge divisor. The cheaper charges doesn't affect it. You still have to supply for fifty charges even if the device uses two at once.
Which is kind of weird, but it's how its written.
==Aelryinth
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Meh.
A Staff of Wish is base 400x 17 x 9, or 61,200 gp. +1,250,000 gp in material component costs, for 1,311,300 gp
By using 2 charges at a time, total cost is barely affected. Raising charges affects only the base price of 61,200 gp, not the material components cost, which is always 50 uses regardless.
So 2 charges at a time reduces the cost to 1,280,100 gp.
And the only way you can exploit it is to be a Mythic character who can convert mythic power directly into spells, or be a sorcerer with arcane apotheseos.
The characters are going to get inherent bonuses to all stats ANYWAYS. Instead of 1.125 million gp being enough to raise 10 Stats by +5, it's now enough to raise all their stats by +5.
And that's pretty much it for out of character abuse.
Given the sheer amount of money necessary to pull this off, and the time required to make such a thing, it's not going to upset the campaign all that much. Wishes are still subject to DM adjudication if they start getting fancy, and such a mighty staff usable by other mythic characters will be on the wish list of every mythic thief alive.
==Aelryinth
Nice calculation.
Hmm, I'll concur on that. I were in error and thank you for the correction.
Revised calculation!
So, using 2 charges from a Staff for Wish will cut the price from 1,311,300 gp down to a mere:
655,650 gp.
Or 95% of the Wealth by Level of a level 19 character! Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket...
===Aelryinth
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Hmm, I'll concur on that. I were in error and thank you for the correction.
Revised calculation!
So, using 2 charges from a Staff for Wish will cut the price from 1,311,300 gp down to a mere:
655,650 gp.
Or 95% of the Wealth by Level of a level 19 character! Talk about putting all your eggs in one basket...
===Aelryinth
Yeah, but once you spread that cost over the entire group, it becomes oddly affordable, even without the mythic rules this item would be troublesome.
Requiring other spells in the staff could be a good way to make it more expensive, to keep the theme intact:
Staff of unalluring investment
CL 17
This opaque crystalline staff seems to be made entirely from compressed diamond dust, and can be used as a +5 defending quarterstaff.
This staff allows use of the following spells:
- Wish (2 charges)
- Limited wish (1 charge)
300x7x13 is 27300 gp for the limited wish. Add in 75k for material components, for an extra 122300 gp.
+5 Defender is +6 to make it an Epic weapon, +72k if you're only enchanting one end.
Total, + another 194300 gp to the 655,550, or 849,850 gp.
==Aelryinth
mm, so if you get the full service staff, you can expend as many wishes per day as you have uses of Mythic Power.
1 Mythic Power = 9th level spell. Impressive.
==Aelryinth
There is no level 21, FYI.
==Aelryinth
Well technically there isn't, but it's relatively easy to extrapolate what that XP cost for level 21 would be, and most everything has a predictable pattern for increasing. There would be no new abilities to gain but theoretically one could advance to level 21 in their current class. That said, it's also pretty easy to start taking other class levels to supplement your abilities.
True, but what you're allowing your characters to do is get all the benefits of single class characters, while single class characters get no additional benefits. In short, there's no 'early power, late sacrifice' trade-off.
I'd allow them to retrain their levels if they really want a capstone, assuming they qualify, and I'd allow them to do the E6 rules and start acquiring feats, but I'd not allow them to just keep leveling.
Keep in mind that Paizo really isn't balanced above level 20. Epic level play had some serious problems.
==Aelryinth
True, but what you're allowing your characters to do is get all the benefits of single class characters, while single class characters get no additional benefits. In short, there's no 'early power, late sacrifice' trade-off.
I'd allow them to retrain their levels if they really want a capstone, assuming they qualify, and I'd allow them to do the E6 rules and start acquiring feats, but I'd not allow them to just keep leveling.
Keep in mind that Paizo really isn't balanced above level 20. Epic level play had some serious problems.
==Aelryinth
Let's be honest here. Paizo isn't really balanced above level 9. The things you can do with 15-20 levels in most classes are absurd.
That's true. but the capstone abilities are the reward for staying the course with a single class. I happen to LIKE the idea that multi-classers minmaxing the early levels for survivability cannot get those capstones.
==Aelryinth
You do realize that the Prestige classes have their own Capstone abilities, right?