So just switch out two swords to be +5 Swords with Ghost Touch. They are in essence +6 weapons and ignore epic damage reduction. They also become a nice treat for players who defeat her by hook or by crook.
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The PCs should have spare Atonements available thanks to the Goddess. If cast on the Herald while the heart is in his chest, then it hits him with 2d4+1 negative levels. On average, they should be doing 5.5 negative levels per casting, so if you have four PCs using Atonement, that should do the job unless they have very bad luck.
And personally, as a GM, I'd rule that the four Atonements (or three if you only have three players) would be sufficient to remove the corruption for pure theatrical effect. It was why the Atonement was put on the Herald to begin with. And sure, he gets saving throws... but this is theatrical in nature and should not get bogged down by rules.
In short, let the Rule of Cool control how this plays out.
Honestly, I'm glad they gave a specific DC for the Atonements, as a fighter throwing a SLA Atonement would likely be laughed and resisted at normal DCs.
But yeah, if my players get to that point, I'll let Atonement SLAs directly targeted at the Herald work as a standard action. It is Iomedae herself offering to accept her Herald back, after all.
Ok so my group of 3 just did the Ylleshka and Igramalash trap fight. She came really quick the turn after he was released. and then 2 rounds after that the fight was over. Igramalash was taken out by my wizard with a channeled power quicken augmented mythic disintegrate spell (162d6's). He also threw in a horrid wilting for good cause (another 18d6). Ylleshka was facing our cleric that has an AC of 45 so she could not hit her on anything less then a nat 20 and the cleric hit on 4 attacks and one critical also killing her off.
If it continues to go like this Baphomet will be killed in one round.
OK. So, I'm about to display my ignorance.
How can you quicken a Disintegrate? There are no 10th level spells. And quicken has a +4 level increase. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell.
Ok so my group of 3 just did the Ylleshka and Igramalash trap fight. She came really quick the turn after he was released. and then 2 rounds after that the fight was over. Igramalash was taken out by my wizard with a channeled power quicken augmented mythic disintegrate spell (162d6's). He also threw in a horrid wilting for good cause (another 18d6). Ylleshka was facing our cleric that has an AC of 45 so she could not hit her on anything less then a nat 20 and the cleric hit on 4 attacks and one critical also killing her off.
If it continues to go like this Baphomet will be killed in one round.
OK. So, I'm about to display my ignorance.
How can you quicken a Disintegrate? There are no 10th level spells. And quicken has a +4 level increase. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell.
Rod of Quicken Metamagic from Xanthir Vang, perhaps?
There is also a Mythic path ability that reduces the level requirements of Metamagic. You can take it up to four times.
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What Magnuskn should do is run the campaign while outlawing magic construction feats and not letting players purchase magic items either. You're limited to only what you find in the AP. See if it's a cakewalk then.
Alright, so I need to put down special houserules for my players so that they cannot use the basic rules of the game anymore? Seriously? The guys are not even doing anything fancy, like you see in the optimization threads. It's mostly just basic feats from the CRB and what we got in the base mythic rules. Which, as you guys should know, are supposed to be taken into account in this AP.
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I wish these threads would contain more than basically every discussion coming down to how inadequate these adventures are for magnuskn's mighty players.
And, y'know, the other people who have complained about the nerfed difficulty of this AP. So please dispend with the illusion that it's just me.
I've played many games with characters in the15-20 level range, very very few had AC's in the 40's. You are far and away a massive outlier on that regard, so she is hardly "pathetically unable" to land her attacks on people she's expected to face.
I am quite interested to hear the parameters of those games. Did the PC's have level-appropiate WBL? Did they get to use crafting feats or use the many, many options available at that level to get to a metropolis which would sell high-level gear? Did you even allow high-level gear to be bought? Because there is of course a very big difference if you allow your players to use their money or not.
Basic example of getting a good AC:
Fighter lvl 18. WBL 530.000 GP.
Dexterity 12. Full Plate +5 (25k). Large Steel Shield +5 (25k). Ring of Deflection +5 (50k). Amulet of Natural Armor +5(50k). Ioun Stone Dusty Rose in Wayfinder (5,5k). That's an AC of 43 right there, without even fancy other stuff you can still get.
What Magnuskn should do is run the campaign while outlawing magic construction feats and not letting players purchase magic items either. You're limited to only what you find in the AP. See if it's a cakewalk then.Alright, so I need to put down special houserules for my players so that they cannot use the basic rules of the game anymore? Seriously? The guys are not even doing anything fancy, like you see in the optimization threads. It's mostly just basic feats from the CRB and what we got in the base mythic rules. Which, as you guys should know, are supposed to be taken into account in this AP.
You're already modifying stuff. So what's wrong with modifying it further?
Personally I'd love to do a low-magic Runelords campaign where players can't build or buy magic items, reduce the number of magic items (but up the power of the ones they do find), and see how the players handle it. I suspect it would be rather enjoyable, to the right players (ie, not those who come to Pathfinder from the Elder Scrolls computer games or the like).
You're already modifying stuff. So what's wrong with modifying it further?
I am upgrading monsters. I already put down some houserules at the start of the campaign regarding magic item crafting (actually, it's not even houserules, it's the WBL limitations from Ultimate Campaign). I am not going to suddenly change rules on them mid-campaign, because that is just messing with the players and with the expectations they had started the campaign with. I only did some houserules for the mythic framework after the start of the campaign, because the party just had become mythic and hadn't used those rules at all before.
Personally I'd love to do a low-magic Runelords campaign where players can't build or buy magic items, reduce the number of magic items (but up the power of the ones they do find), and see how the players handle it. I suspect it would be rather enjoyable, to the right players (ie, not those who come to Pathfinder from the Elder Scrolls computer games or the like).
Since I am playing RotRL right now I can tell you what would probably happen, if you play otherwise within the normal parameters of an AP (4 players, 15 points): They'll have huge problems somewhere in the first two modules, which are really quite difficult. Then things will get much easier after they reach about level 9-10.
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Rod of Quicken Metamagic from Xanthir Vang, perhaps?Ok so my group of 3 just did the Ylleshka and Igramalash trap fight. She came really quick the turn after he was released. and then 2 rounds after that the fight was over. Igramalash was taken out by my wizard with a channeled power quicken augmented mythic disintegrate spell (162d6's). He also threw in a horrid wilting for good cause (another 18d6). Ylleshka was facing our cleric that has an AC of 45 so she could not hit her on anything less then a nat 20 and the cleric hit on 4 attacks and one critical also killing her off.
If it continues to go like this Baphomet will be killed in one round.
OK. So, I'm about to display my ignorance.
How can you quicken a Disintegrate? There are no 10th level spells. And quicken has a +4 level increase. Disintegrate is a 6th level spell.
Yep that rod has been very handy. Also I will say as this is the first time I have used a metamagic heavy arcane caster they can be quiet powerful. Along with the maximize rod.
Creative Director
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James,
1 -Why was CoT so low level? Because paizo was uncharted waters?
2 -Are the names "Guardinal" and "Eladrin" not open content?
1) Because we built the adventure using 3.5 adventure guidelines, not realizing how different the XP progression was (3.5 XP is faster even than Pathfinder's fast track), and by the time we realized it in the 3rd adventure, we were pretty much already behind. Growing pains, in other words... but that said, I don't think it's bad to have variety like that in our AP offerings.
2) Nope; those names are owned by Wizards of the Coast.
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Why include a melee heavy monster if you are not going to use it to her full potential?
Because not every NPC needs to be perfect. And because a "perfect" 12 armed marilith would be an unfair encounter.
Somehow she has a +3 modifier to her CR (17 base, +2 from tiers, +3 ?? = 22). Conjoined is nice but hardly worth +1 CR at this level. I suppose the designers considered her low attack bonus/damage bonus too high, so they over-CR'ed her, and put the mythic ability score increases into Constitution instead of Strength. She also doesn't have mythic Power Attack, wich could help with the low damage without getting penalized on the attacks.
This character is very unusual, and wreaks havoc on the CR system. As I detailed above, she's VERY swingy when it comes to fitting into the table's expected numbers, so I basically assigned the best CR I thought would fit.
Feel free to adjust as you want, though. As per normal.
I've played many games with characters in the15-20 level range, very very few had AC's in the 40's. You are far and away a massive outlier on that regard, so she is hardly "pathetically unable" to land her attacks on people she's expected to face.I am quite interested to hear the parameters of those games. Did the PC's have level-appropiate WBL? Did they get to use crafting feats or use the many, many options available at that level to get to a metropolis which would sell high-level gear? Did you even allow high-level gear to be bought? Because there is of course a very big difference if you allow your players to use their money or not.
Basic example of getting a good AC:
Fighter lvl 18. WBL 530.000 GP.
Dexterity 12. Full Plate +5 (25k). Large Steel Shield +5 (25k). Ring of Deflection +5 (50k). Amulet of Natural Armor +5(50k). Ioun Stone Dusty Rose in Wayfinder (5,5k). That's an AC of 43 right there, without even fancy other stuff you can still get.
Sadly such an obvious straight forward example IS an outlier for average players simply because most don't actually focus on a particular strength. In my experience players are poor shoppers wasting slots on perceived value and game streamlining rather than what they should be buying. One of my players buys a Ring of Sustenance EVERY TIME, regardless of class or role, just to avoid the bookkeeping of food and water as that aspect of the game irritates him. That same player also likes "special" items much more than +items. If given the choice between a +3 full plate vs the Folding plate he'll always pick the Folding for the cool factor.
Eh, I guess my players are more focused on efficiency rather than fancy. It's always the big six first, with some cheap outliers (Ring of Sustenance is a favorite for them, too) thrown into the mix. Vicious and Bane weapons are also very much favorited.
I've played many games with characters in the15-20 level range, very very few had AC's in the 40's. You are far and away a massive outlier on that regard, so she is hardly "pathetically unable" to land her attacks on people she's expected to face.I am quite interested to hear the parameters of those games. Did the PC's have level-appropiate WBL? Did they get to use crafting feats or use the many, many options available at that level to get to a metropolis which would sell high-level gear? Did you even allow high-level gear to be bought? Because there is of course a very big difference if you allow your players to use their money or not.
Basic example of getting a good AC:
Fighter lvl 18. WBL 530.000 GP.
Dexterity 12. Full Plate +5 (25k). Large Steel Shield +5 (25k). Ring of Deflection +5 (50k). Amulet of Natural Armor +5(50k). Ioun Stone Dusty Rose in Wayfinder (5,5k). That's an AC of 43 right there, without even fancy other stuff you can still get.
Let's take out the Shield +5, since not everyone uses the shield; Let's add the belt of +6 Dex, and Jingasa or variant thereof for another +1; and we're at 41 for a non shield user. Potentially 48 for a shield user.
A Wizard would be lower, perhaps mid to high 30's without a shield spell up. But everyone in armor with any kind of dex bonus should be easily hitting 40. +5 Armor is only 25k.
==Aelryinth
Wizards barely care about their own armor class, anyway. Although with flying, True Seeing opponents a lot of their defenses are negated.
People I've played with almost never go straight +5 armor, and then shield, and then ring or protection. It's weapons first and foremost, things like amulets of adaptation, helms of underwater action, cloaks of flying, rings of elemental resistance.
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My players at 13/6 right now range in unbuffed ACs from 25 (a Witch) to 36 (Captain +14 Dex Mod the Gunslinger). By the time they reach the Marilith I fully expect everyone but the Witch to exceed AC 40. My players resemble Magnuskn's to a large degree, having 14 something years of 3.X/P experience, not to mention years of earlier systems.
My biggest complaint for this AP is the endless assumptions that NPC X will teleport away at Y HP. Thanks to Legendary Item, both my Bard and Gunslinger have Phase Locking Firearms. Nothing teleports away. Ever. When a stat block reads "teleports away at X HP" you can just substitute "dies, tired, running away from a hail of bullets and flying swordstrokes".
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People I've played with almost never go straight +5 armor, and then shield, and then ring or protection. It's weapons first and foremost, things like amulets of adaptation, helms of underwater action, cloaks of flying, rings of elemental resistance.
We are talking about level 18 here. That's way past the gimmick items.
My biggest complaint for this AP is the endless assumptions that NPC X will teleport away at Y HP. Thanks to Legendary Item, both my Bard and Gunslinger have Phase Locking Firearms. Nothing teleports away. Ever. When a stat block reads "teleports away at X HP" you can just substitute "dies, tired, running away from a hail of bullets and flying swordstrokes".
The morale section in the statblocks almost always assumes very low levels of HP at which the NPC's try to flee in the first place. Given the damage output of frontline PC's, it's pretty save to assume that they'd need to decide to flee at 50% HP to even have a chance of escaping in any way. At the level of this module the concentration check of 29 needed to use the Greater Teleport spell-like ability is finally automatic, so I can understand your players trying to lock down their enemies.
I really dislike the flavor of the 1st part of this adventure where meeting Iomedae is like meeting a trigger happy high school principal. I'll have to think about how to rework that. Having a LG deity immediately resort to punitive action seems out of place. My assumption is that this may due for the sake of page space and I could make a stretch that Iomedae doesn't have time to fool around as the Crusade hangs in a critical balance but I am definitely not playing this out as written. =(
She is Lawful Good not Lawful Nice.
I really dislike the flavor of the 1st part of this adventure where meeting Iomedae is like meeting a trigger happy high school principal. I'll have to think about how to rework that. Having a LG deity immediately resort to punitive action seems out of place. My assumption is that this may due for the sake of page space and I could make a stretch that Iomedae doesn't have time to fool around as the Crusade hangs in a critical balance but I am definitely not playing this out as written. =(She is Lawful Good not Lawful Nice.
She stands for justice and honor. I don't get that from the "corporal punishment lady" who showed up in this module.
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I really dislike the flavor of the 1st part of this adventure where meeting Iomedae is like meeting a trigger happy high school principal. I'll have to think about how to rework that. Having a LG deity immediately resort to punitive action seems out of place. My assumption is that this may due for the sake of page space and I could make a stretch that Iomedae doesn't have time to fool around as the Crusade hangs in a critical balance but I am definitely not playing this out as written. =(
Yep, that first part of the adventure was positively awful. It starts out giving long paragraphs of explanations of what to do if the players decided to attack Iomedae, and when reading them Iw as wandering why are they needed - no sane player would attack a good goddess, right? but then you read what she behaves like and think, "oh boy, I would punch her in the face if I could."
Iomedae in this adventure is a *douche*. She is demanding, annoying, condescending, impatient and violent. Now, of course, if anyone gets to be 100000% sure of their moral superiority, a good aligned god makes sense. Still, this just reminds me how artificial and barely functioning the alignment system is. Because a truly good being would simply not trumpet blast anyone for 20d6, let alone the heroes who braved the heart of the abyss in a selfless attempt to ave lives.
Gonna have to change that encounter entirely if I ever run this adventure. Make it into a longer, calmer roleplaying event where Iomedae invites the PCs to a week long stay in her realm and eventually approaches them with a plea for aid. She should make it clear she is impressed by their accomplishments and that were she still the mortal she used to be, theirs would be the kind of deeds that would inspire her onward. That's better, I think, than playing an extremely deadly game of trivia.
Another part I disliked so far (haven't finished reading yet) is the city of Blackburgh. Presenting it as a city where monsters wonder about and attack the PCs every now and then is... boring as hack.
If I ever play the adventure, I'll present the city as a sort of a dark reflection on urban loneliness. The city streets will be deserted, and echoing sounds of distant conversation could lead visitors in circles in it's bleak, empty streets. The physical confusion of the twisting alleys and empty houses should be like the physical manifestation that a lonely human could feel in a city - his social seclusion makes him feel lost, and in Blackburgh he will be literally lost. While the city is filled with abyssal life, for visitors it should be very hard to spot that. Encounters with demons will happen rarely, as the city is built in a way to prevent it's inhabitants from meeting each other.
It will, in short, be what a city in a labyrinth realm of torment should be like.
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I wish these threads would contain more than basically every discussion coming down to how inadequate these adventures are for magnuskn's mighty players.And, y'know, the other people who have complained about the nerfed difficulty of this AP. So please dispend with the illusion that it's just me.
Say, this might sound like a stupid question, but... have you ever tried some *really* drastic tinkering with monster stats?
I mean, something like, raising HP by a factor of 10, not 1.5? Because it sounds like most of the problems come from the fact that players are able to deal waaay to much damage way to fast. But if a monsters would have had enough HP to withstand a nova for a round or 3, and could even start an offensive of it's own in that time, it will cause a chain reaction of players not only losing their resources faster but also being forced to invest more resources in defensive measures. In short, several successive encounters with monsters who have 10 times the HP they should could really make things challenging. In addition, bumping attack bonuses and armor classes to more appropriate numbers - your fighter can dish seventy five attacks per turn, all of them with a +1000 to hit? give the monster 1013 AC. You know? just patch the numbers to work specifically for your group.
Did you ever try that?
Yep, that first part of the adventure was positively awful. It starts out giving long paragraphs of explanations of what to do if the players decided to attack Iomedae, and when reading them Iw as wandering why are they needed - no sane player would attack a good goddess, right? but then you read what she behaves like and think, "oh boy, I would punch her in the face if I could."
Iomedae in this adventure is a *douche*. She is demanding, annoying, condescending, impatient and violent. Now, of course, if anyone gets to be 100000% sure of their moral superiority, a good aligned god makes sense. Still, this just reminds me how artificial and barely functioning the alignment system is. Because a truly good being would simply not trumpet blast anyone for 20d6, let alone the heroes who braved the heart of the abyss in a selfless attempt to ave lives.
Gonna have to change that encounter entirely if I ever run this adventure. Make it into a longer, calmer roleplaying event where Iomedae invites the PCs to a week long stay in her realm and eventually approaches them with a plea for aid. She should make it clear she is impressed by their accomplishments and that were she still the mortal she used to be, theirs would be the kind of deeds that would inspire her onward. That's better, I think, than playing an extremely deadly game of trivia.
I can only say that I completely agree. The Iomedae who showed up in this module made me actively dislike that goddess and her entire faith for putting up with this querulous and petty harridan. I will also rebuild the encounter entirely along the lines Lord Snow proposed, so as not to lose all players for future PC worshippers of her and consider this really a poor display of LG divinity on part of the writer. :(
Speaking as a GM who ran his Night Below campaign with multiple divinities that intervened regularly? None of my Gods or Goddesses (or individuals who insist they are not Gods while still pinging off the divinity radar) acted that way. We had a goddess who acted like a petulant little girl when the party killed a unicorn, but hey! She was a little girl (so far as divinities go)! We had the sardonic snarker who said he wasn't a God but acted a bit like Q. We had the the dark goddess of the dark elves who gloated and acted quite the megalomaniac (and lost her hand to a ragnablade - yes, my campaigns included me playing fast and loose borrowing elements from anime and literature, and still had the players fearing for their lives). None of them acted like the uppity disciplinarian that Iomedae was portrayed as.
If she ever appeared in one of my games, my Q-like "not-a-god" would probably show up and smack her in the face with a cream pie (his weapon of choice). But then I'll likely be shifting WotR to be in my own world and divine group if I ever get a chance to run it, so I'd be replacing wholesale which divinity it was. (Probably the God of Honor, he seems the closest in divine focus to Iomedae.)
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Thinking about it, I suspect part of the reason that the Iomedea section is so poorly executed is probably because of the (misguided) attempt to make it into an "encounter" with all the things an encounter entails - rolling dice, a chance to fail and just generally building the entire event as an obstacle for the players to overcome.
I think this is a bigger blunder than part 5 of Second Darkness, honestly. I'm surprised to see Paizo making the same mistake twice, especially given just how much the first time stung (I think most people still consider SD to be the worst AP despite colossal screw ups like Serpent's Skull that followed it).
I wish these threads would contain more than basically every discussion coming down to how inadequate these adventures are for magnuskn's mighty players.And, y'know, the other people who have complained about the nerfed difficulty of this AP. So please dispend with the illusion that it's just me.
I am one of the others with grave concerns of high level play with mythic now in the mix. Mythic levels and the current issue of players outpacing monsters really concerns me. However, I understand the onus is on me to make the necessary adjustments but there are some issues that appear to need addressing for the betterment of high level play.
Say, this might sound like a stupid question, but... have you ever tried some *really* drastic tinkering with monster stats?
I mean, something like, raising HP by a factor of 10, not 1.5? Because it sounds like most of the problems come from the fact that players are able to deal waaay to much damage way to fast. But if a monsters would have had enough HP to withstand a nova for a round or 3, and could even start an offensive of it's own in that time, it will cause a chain reaction of players not only losing their resources faster but also being forced to invest more resources in defensive measures. In short, several successive encounters with monsters who have 10 times the HP they should could really make things challenging. In addition, bumping attack bonuses and armor classes to more appropriate numbers - your fighter can dish seventy five attacks per turn, all of them with a +1000 to hit? give the monster 1013 AC. You know? just patch the numbers to work specifically for your group.
Did you ever try that?
Not yet. Partly because I haven't figured out the best medium for raising monster HP (x10 seems a bit WoW'ish, to be honest) and also because encounters have to fit into the three hour sessions we get once per week. High level encounters do get progressively more difficult to play, both from my side (rule calls, keeping track of many opponents and so on) and from the players side (options paralysis is the most obvious culprit here). Hence it is in the interest of everybody to keep things rolling. And I already maximise HP and sometimes just use fantasy numbers, i.e. the opponent drops when I want it to.
Kindly keep in mind that Iomadae is not in this for amusement or merriment. You only see the disciplinarian if a) members of the party attack her or b) they don't take her questions seriously and are unable to answer them with even a casual attempt. The knowledge checks at their level should basically be auto-pass. If you treat the goddess with the respect she deserves as a beyond-royal personage, you will get also treated with respect.
If you act like a member of the Knights of the Dinner Table, well, you literally are ASKING to raise her ire.
So, the only way you're going to see the pissed-off goddess is if you piss her off deliberately.
Also, the ten trials of Iomadae is not a DC 30 check. That's kind of like saying the ten commandments is a DC 30 check...they are the whole centerpoint of her faith. The check MIGHt be DC 20.
The writer of the encounter had to compensate for basically player-attitude worse case scenario. The encounter is not written for best case scenario, where literally none of that happens and the goddess sends them on the way with boons, encouraging words, a relic of ancient Ozem, and the very scarf off her neck.
==Aelryinth
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Not yet. Partly because I haven't figured out the best medium for raising monster HP (x10 seems a bit WoW'ish, to be honest) and also because encounters have to fit into the three hour sessions we get once per week. High level encounters do get progressively more difficult to play, both from my side (rule calls, keeping track of many opponents and so on) and from the players side (options paralysis is the most obvious culprit here). Hence it is in the interest of everybody to keep things rolling. And I already maximise HP and sometimes just use fantasy numbers, i.e. the opponent drops when I want it to.
Also of note is that in Herald, there's a 60% chance of a CR 15+ fight every HOUR.
And since some of the maze locations take multiple days to go through, you're looking at having to run an insane number of encounters. All to thoroughly drain your players mythic power every day.
Wizards barely care about their own armor class, anyway. Although with flying, True Seeing opponents a lot of their defenses are negated.
ANd it should be noted that the vast majority of the opponents they are facing are capable of flight, have true seeing, or other senses.
AC is more important for wizards at high levels, not less. It's at low-medium where concealment shines.
==Aelryinth
I think some really have a incorrect perspective of Iomedae.
http://www.pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Acts_of_Iomedae
This is supposed to be REQUIRED learning of her followers and there's not one lesson there that doesn't shout "This is the religion of manning the **** up and getting **** done."
I highly doubt she was anything less than demanding when convincing someone to kill himself.
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Kindly keep in mind that Iomadae is not in this for amusement or merriment. You only see the disciplinarian if a) members of the party attack her or b) they don't take her questions seriously and are unable to answer them with even a casual attempt. The knowledge checks at their level should basically be auto-pass. If you treat the goddess with the respect she deserves as a beyond-royal personage, you will get also treated with respect.
If you act like a member of the Knights of the Dinner Table, well, you literally are ASKING to raise her ire.
So, the only way you're going to see the pissed-off goddess is if you piss her off deliberately.
Also, the ten trials of Iomadae is not a DC 30 check. That's kind of like saying the ten commandments is a DC 30 check...they are the whole centerpoint of her faith. The check MIGHt be DC 20.
The writer of the encounter had to compensate for basically player-attitude worse case scenario. The encounter is not written for best case scenario, where literally none of that happens and the goddess sends them on the way with boons, encouraging words, a relic of ancient Ozem, and the very scarf off her neck.
==Aelryinth
I agree when our group played through that part they did not get blasted at all. My Arcanist had a +35 or higher to knowledge check at this point and so that was an auto pass and we had a paladin of Iomedae and a Cleric of Iomedae. The second question was not that hard as we have been working with a redeemed succubus for 2 AP chapters. The third question is all about just showing that your characters are ready to face this next part and not be indecisive or scared about taking the fight to Baphomet.
I'll be running this in a month when we finish book four for my roll20 game. I'm really enjoying the Labyrinth mechanics and I plan on using them for lower level encounters. Even with the crafting and high amounts of damage the fighter puts out, I've more often than not have kept the players on their toes with the encounters.
That said, probably giving that marilith pounce to make her really nasty.
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The point some people along with me are making about Iomedae's behaviour is not that the checks are difficult (they should not be at this level), but rather that the behaviour ascribed to her is ridiculously petty for a goddess of justice and honor and should not have been one of the things to focus on during this quite important event. Characters who try to attack her already fail automatically to harm her, so why do stuff like blasting loud noises at them?
The point some people along with me are making about Iomedae's behaviour is not that the checks are difficult (they should not be at this level), but rather that the behaviour ascribed to her is ridiculously petty for a goddess of justice and honor and should not have been one of the things to focus on during this quite important event. Characters who try to attack her already fail automatically to harm her, so why do stuff like blasting loud noises at them?
I agree that her reaction to failure is pretty petty, though not her reaction to, say, disrespect or a player being a douche. This is a god after all and if someone is deliberately being an a!!&@%% to her, you can imagine they'll be shooed away at least.
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The point some people along with me are making about Iomedae's behaviour is not that the checks are difficult (they should not be at this level), but rather that the behaviour ascribed to her is ridiculously petty for a goddess of justice and honor and should not have been one of the things to focus on during this quite important event. Characters who try to attack her already fail automatically to harm her, so why do stuff like blasting loud noises at them?I agree that her reaction to failure is pretty petty, though not her reaction to, say, disrespect or a player being a douche. This is a god after all and if someone is deliberately being an a*%%~%+ to her, you can imagine they'll be shooed away at least.
Look, there is no way for the PC's to even put a scratch on her, so the power potential is completely on her side. Abusing that power to punish people who cannot defend themselves doesn't lend itself to neither justice nor honor.
Look, there is no way for the PC's to even put a scratch on her, so the power potential is completely on her side. Abusing that power to punish people who cannot defend themselves doesn't lend itself to neither justice nor honor.The point some people along with me are making about Iomedae's behaviour is not that the checks are difficult (they should not be at this level), but rather that the behaviour ascribed to her is ridiculously petty for a goddess of justice and honor and should not have been one of the things to focus on during this quite important event. Characters who try to attack her already fail automatically to harm her, so why do stuff like blasting loud noises at them?I agree that her reaction to failure is pretty petty, though not her reaction to, say, disrespect or a player being a douche. This is a god after all and if someone is deliberately being an a*%%~%+ to her, you can imagine they'll be shooed away at least.
While that is true, that doesn't mean she needs to suffer players' deliberate disrespect. To get her to attack you and banish you takes a person to be a real douche and really disruptive. If a player wants a fight, she'll be happy to oblige to satisfy their bloodlust if it'll get them back on track. She is a warrior goddess.
The point some people along with me are making about Iomedae's behaviour is not that the checks are difficult (they should not be at this level), but rather that the behaviour ascribed to her is ridiculously petty for a goddess of justice and honor and should not have been one of the things to focus on during this quite important event. Characters who try to attack her already fail automatically to harm her, so why do stuff like blasting loud noises at them?
Iomedae and her religion appears to ascribe to more "traditional" honor. The same honor that is perfectly fine with Sir Gawain beheading a man while believing he himself wouldn't need to uphold his end of the deal.
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I have a suspicion some of you are missing part of the point. Which is not entirely surprising, considering the greater effort put into giving you ideas of what to do if your players decide to get violent with Iomaedae.
This scene is boot camp.
I realize that may or may not make much sense, but hear me out please.
Ask any drill instructor or military adviser who knows about actually training people & they will tell you that the level of hazing, abuse & micro-management that military recruits endure is notably more than is actually necessary to either train them or instill the sense of camaraderie with each other that is desired.
So why do they continue to use these techniques? Some of it is legacy, yes. But also it has been shown that soldiers who have endured basic training are better conditioned to handle the kind of abuse they are at risk of experiencing as Prisoners of War.
Iomaedae just lost her 'main guy' to a 'very' hostile power & has every reason to fear that he has been broken. You think she is going to risk sending a handful of punks who weren't even on the 'radar' this time last year without applying a bit of non-destructive testing first?
Mind you, I agree that the punishment for failing the questions is pretty bad and I'll be removing that. But, if a player really wants to antagonize a god and try to attack her, then they'll deal with the consequences.
Iomedae and her religion appears to ascribe to more "traditional" honor. The same honor that is perfectly fine with Sir Gawain beheading a man while believing he himself wouldn't need to uphold his end of the deal.
Source? And I mean for the Iomedean faith ascribing to those particular ideals. Because the official sources I've read say otherwise.
Iomaedae just lost her 'main guy' to a 'very' hostile power & has every reason to fear that he has been broken. You think she is going to risk sending a handful of punks who weren't even on the 'radar' this time last year without applying a bit of non-destructive testing first?
Given how her other option is "do bupkiss, because divine mandate sucks", I think your analogy is somewhat flawed. Also, level 16 heroes with six or seven mythic tiers don't exactly correspond to raw recruits at boot camp.
While that is true, that doesn't mean she needs to suffer players' deliberate disrespect. To get her to attack you and banish you takes a person to be a real douche and really disruptive. If a player wants a fight, she'll be happy to oblige to satisfy their bloodlust if it'll get them back on track. She is a warrior goddess.
Yeah, but because she is a warrior goddess of justice and honor, she should be keenly aware of how nearby her behaviour (as ascribed in the AP module) skirts to torture of helpless POW's. The PC's have zero power in this situation.
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Honestly, there's a much easier answer to this but relies on your party having actually had morals in the four previous books.
If/When they fail a question, the entire cathedral is blasted by the sound, shattering the stained glass windows. It reforms into murals that depict the PCs at one point or another actually having followed the true answer to the question.
The PCs are dazed for a moment as Iomedae tells them to remember and wake up, before moving onto her next question.
Since she would True Rez them anyways, there's no particular need to actually roll damage dice or anything stupid such as that.
Thanks, that seems like a great suggestion, Lochar. If only the module writer had thought of that instead of resorting to "use sound torture to get what I want" with her.
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Iomedae isn't the most friendly of all the good gods, and she's sending them into what she fears might be a suicide mission, so she's trying to make damn sure the PCs can take what the Abyss has to give out. Which is as much psychological as it its physical, if not more so.
I can certainly see some players reacting negatively to the way she comports herself and treats some PCs. The comparison to a drill sergeant and boot camp is a good one, though.
Of course, if you think it'd work better to have her be less strict and more friendly in your game, by all means do so... but her personality, I feel, is accurately represented. If we wanted someone who was more friendly and supportive of the PCs in this position, we would have used Sarenrae or Shelyn—a deity who's pursuit of good isn't tempered or adjusted by an equal pursuit of something else (in Iomedae's case, Law).
Iomaedae just lost her 'main guy' to a 'very' hostile power & has every reason to fear that he has been broken. You think she is going to risk sending a handful of punks who weren't even on the 'radar' this time last year without applying a bit of non-destructive testing first?Given how her other option is "do bupkiss, because divine mandate sucks", I think your analogy is somewhat flawed. Also, level 16 heroes with six or seven mythic tiers don't exactly correspond to raw recruits at boot camp.
Alright, how about ? The fact still remains that all the PC's were only 1st level less than a year before, unless you as the GM were allowing a lot more time to pass in-game between the beginning & now.
edit: I like Lochar's suggestion. As written, the entire scene reads much as a cut-scene anyway, which is my chief complaint about it.