rhha i need to speak a little bit more english... i don't understand anything of this Q & A, the accent is too prononced for my ears, it's so frustrating !
Goblin Squad Member
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I like the fact that settlements are now just locations and not identities, and Venture Companies will be our persistent identifier.
There are just certain MMO traditions, that are traditional for a reason.
Like the idea of Faction warfare, at a certain level, becoming consequence free. There really shouldn't be negative consequences for PvPing in a game that is "heavy on PvP content".
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Goblin Squad Member
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rhha i need to speak a little bit more english... i don't understand anything of this Q & A, the accent is too prononced for my ears, it's so frustrating !
Tbh, I find Stephen has a 'warbling' accent which is tricky to follow. I admit my hearing is low functioning in some contexts however.
I did hear when Stephen was talking about problems of F2P with goons. But also reading this article is another problem with F2P eg Security of accounts as LoL has found out: Online games a 'playground' for organized crime, according to security expert
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Goblin Squad Member
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I based my comment on the Q&A discussion between 1:30 - 2:30, where we could choose our Venture Company as the recipient of our "Core Allegiance", and a settlement is a place where we can, if we choose, to place our allegiance.
Settlement Managers, obviously won't have that luxury, and I'd guess that most companies that run settlements will not separate their allegiance between the two.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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Don't read too much into anything we ramble about live beyond specifically answering the question we were asked. The question was answering, "Can our small group of Dwarves run their own settlement?" with "Probably not a whole settlement, but we're hoping to support companies sufficiently that you'll feel awesome if your group of Dwarves is 'just' a VC."
To wit, just because we're trying to create a situation where your VC might be your core allegiance it doesn't follow that your settlement is just a location rather than an identity. Liken it to a pro sports franchise: The members of [your favorite local football team] probably consider themselves members of that team foremost in their minds, and that sets a huge portion of their identities, but they're also important people with lots of community influence and interests in [your city]. If nothing else, at least some of them need to involve themselves in city politics to make sure that they get the facilities and tax breaks that they desire. The thing is, they're going to try to do what's best for the team before they consider other political groups within the town (because what affects the team directly affects them) and if their franchise gets lured away, they'll move to another town.
So Lord of Elder Days' Dwarven Venture Company is going to have a major investment in the settlement they're members of: it's where they probably get a lot of their training, keep their stuff, do their crafting, do their shopping, and have a lot of friends. When the settlement goes to war, they go with it, and its alignment governs their own ability to drift. It will certainly be an identity. But, what we're trying to do, is also create a strong identity for that Venture Company that gives them cool things to do as a VC that the other VCs in the settlement may not get to do, and makes it more likely that they will negotiate with their settlement leaders as a bloc.
The real goal is to create smaller nuclei of member involvement with the settlement so individual players don't get lost in large numbers. If you have a settlement of hundreds of members, the leadership may not be able to pay attention to every single member. But if those members are organized into a couple dozen VCs, the leadership will have an easier time keeping track of VC concerns and the VC leaders track individual members. Ultimately, if a VC doesn't feel that the needs of their members are being met, they do have the option to threaten to take their allegiance and members elsewhere.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To wit, just because we're trying to create a situation where your VC might be your core allegiance it doesn't follow that your settlement is just a location rather than an identity. Liken it to a pro sports franchise: The members of [your favorite local football team] probably consider themselves members of that team foremost in their minds, and that sets a huge portion of their identities, but they're also important people with lots of community influence and interests in [your city]. If nothing else, at least some of them need to involve themselves in city politics to make sure that they get the facilities and tax breaks that they desire. The thing is, they're going to try to do what's best for the team before they consider other political groups within the town (because what affects the team directly affects them) and if their franchise gets lured away, they'll move to another town.
Thank you for your response. You present a very interesting perspective. It makes me think of a settlement as being an "opportunity" for a persistent (potentially long lasting) interaction, between the settlement managers and the venture companies that choose to support that settlement.
The settlement is still a location, but every settlement will provide different opportunities, and that will give each one a unique "Flavor".
@Bluddwolf - I have no idea where you got that idea but it's wrong.Which part, the settlement or the faction warfare?
The audio was not the clearest presentation, hopefully there will be a transcript.
do you know when this transcript will be released ?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah, that's a tall order. kenshi33: I'll try to listen again and bullet point various Q&As - that might be the optimal path to take?! Though as said, my hearing is sub-par. I can hear a mouse in a quiet forest, but put me in a busy watering-hole and I can't hear anything shouted in my ear!
Yeah, that's a tall order. kenshi33: I'll try to listen again and bullet point various Q&As - that might be the optimal path to take?! Though as said, my hearing is sub-par. I can hear a mouse in a quiet forest, but put me in a busy watering-hole and I can't hear anything shouted in my ear!
it would be nice
@decius : "never" is a word that doesnt exists until you reach the end of the eternity
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Goblin Squad Member
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Q/A Brief bulletpoint of topics brought up:
1. Capstone has become Dedication "Role Bonus" vs generalist variety of skills slotted. All skill trained remain useful if you change your preferences.
2. Design team creating a space for Venture Company identities in Settlements ie "tail wags the dog" - discussed in Stephen's recent post. Above.
3. Question was asked about settlement restriction options regarding above eg "No Elves" etc. Again a detail being worked on in lieu of the above VC's.
4. Resource Competition in hexes drives competition either resource rate of replemish via scorched earth or depletion from competition leads to conflict.
5. NPC Guards per settlement again rules can be allocated to tailor their response.
6. Contigious hex control vs any claimed question: There will be some "difficult to hold onto Hexes" but generally if a hex is claimed and held it can be considered controlled.
7. Escalations can increase due to large harvesting operations by players.
8. Devs intend to experiment with allowing players various options to govern settlements to see what works.
9. Escalations can work autonomously in hexes and branch: Grow THEN: Stay OR Move OR Multiply into harder mobs etc. and in corners of the map independent of players.
10. Dungeons are in development after other things are worked on before.
11. Devs want different groups to be viable eg be part of VC larger group operating under a contract with a settlement as well as a group of friends go off and do their own stuff. Working on the right tools to help players "Match-Make" the best settlements/players groups to join that fit their goals.
12. Economies of scale work from individual to settlement: Player go kill mobs -> gain achievements -> go take mob resources to sell at settlement -> settlement requires players doing this to function.
13. CC's can control POI and form alliance/contract with settlements ie pay % of profits to settlement for settlement protection and resources etc. Devs want players to operate in a limited space (finite resources for competition) but maximize their diversity of options (cooperation and niches filled). Something like that.
14. PFO is single shard world.
15. Interplay between players that just want to adventure sort more pathfinder type of adventure and less dominion side of the game, can do that ie reduce their conflict so they can become more about either crafters or harvesters from expert to gatherer levels etc.
16. Crafting item quality will be done in tiers of quality - not as extremely granular/opaque as Star Wars Galaxies (SWG) to make it more accessible to the generalist crafter as well as still allow the specialist character crafters plenty of options.
17. Enchanting items: Generally any but wizard will naturally gain more options sooner.
18. Settlements design is fundamental NOT to have any that are self-sufficient which is something that may have happened in EVE. So one group cannot dominate wholesale.
19. Can we have a Goblin Exporting Business aka slavery question in Riverlands? Hellknights don't care much for the freedoms of the riverlands. Peasants or Common Folk can be the local limited workforce resource. They can be captured however and used as slaves in Evil settlements.
20. Question about how useful to be a spreadsheet-ist as per EVE. There will be scope for being organised running operations I think was the general gist of the answer to that aired comment.
21. Will there be add-ons for PFO? Depends on Unity and the programmers are the people to address this question.
22. Question on concern of losing XP and losing it via losing one's settlement: If you take an Aristocrat role of career path in your settlement then you don't lose those skill points, you can just use them again when you find/build a new settlement. Aristocrat means you can boost the functioning of various buildings.
23. KS backers get Destiny's Twin. Alts can be bought also. Might be a small discount for buying alts on x1 a/c to encourage to keep your characters in one account.
24. To begin with PFO will be a sub-based payment option (ie skill-training). Devs are looking at the F2P options for later, but there are caveats: How does that affect the economy, does it lead to goons making tons of freebie accounts to change the game experience for others, so stay tuned as more development occurs over time.
25. About 2.5 yrs to max a certain "role". ""20"" years to max all roles, ie it seems very deliberatly impossible or long to max out. The key is the constant rate of xp gain of players so devs can base a lot of calculations off that constant rate.
26. Something about monster loot (it will be bits of monster to collect) but I did not catch the full Q/A.
27. It might be foreseeable to see 3D-Printers used to print characters if they become cheap enough: Certainly a potential extra revenue stream that would interest Ryan!
28. EE eta 1.25 years; Alpha tentatively: Early 2014 or "before EE". ;)
29. Question about Character Creation: Can change race (prob. x1) when new ones come into availability. This has some influence on eg are Elves better with Bows boost for different races. Remains to be finalized of course.
30. Question concerning NPC Factions how you gain Loyalty pts with these. It is in the blog for a more detailed description.
31. To take-over a settlement, I think it was said WAR needs to be formed (a future blog we know is on that topic). Settlements will not be easy to defeat. Players have the options to siege the hell out of a settlement or take out key infrastructure or attempt to take and claim the Hall.
32. What is the issue with Lag with lots of players on screen? Stephen Cheney answers that GW has Mark Kalmes on the team (CTO) who has worked on these problems before in previous mmorpg. One solution that EVE uses is to slow time down for players in high density so actions take longer ie double the time ie for players everything is slowed down by half.
33. One thing to also enable is with Formations that can be considered a single object with x1 overhead to talk to other objects. The rendering of all this per client the GPU (graphics) is not so much the main bottleneck as all the objects interacting simultaneously (I think that must mean the CPU - processor per computer?) - so that's the challenge for the tech guys to work on. I've added a bit of extra discussion here which may help (if no errors).
34. Question on Line of Sight (LOS) and being hit when not actually in field of view which happened in Guild Wars 2 and seems to have been mildly unfair. I did not hear the answer for this, [Assumption start]but assume it concerns the discussion that the targeting was in range then it will hit if activated unless it was an AOE in which case it might hit some targets and not others depending on what the network is attempting to send and how good the conditions are for that.[/Assumption end]
35. There are refresh abilities that are powerful about 4 if I heard right: They have a limit on use and need to charge if you can sit down for 30s to recharge without disturbance. If you Eat then you can increase back up the charging rate as that gets slower. And drinking too while doing all this in a Tavern - hence Tavern function as well as social!! Very cool.
36. Guilds probably have a guild bank with inventory space in settlements and moving stuff IN-Settlement just be seamlessly easy ie peasants moving the stuff so there's no hassle for players or for the computer to run all that stuff.
37. A Siege may not be necessary for attacking a settlement - if - the settlement has not bought (lol) a wall ie has not been able to afford it yet. If it has then you will have to siege that settlement and it is NOT open but closed of course! Again cool.
38. Fairly sure I heard them say about mounted combat that they have ideas about it but time dependent on when.
39. Hiring of people if interested to work at GW question: If GW can afford to pay; there are a couple of slots open maybe but also dependent on growth leading to requiring more team members/roles etc.
40. Pit-Fighter Tool is delayed, as per Ryan.
41. Kickstarter is ended but the pledge tool on paizo when back up will open SOME pledge options up but not all eg I think they said with confirmation Destiny's Twin is no longer available, but other options will be.
42. Boats/Ships question: Again on the time-scale when things can be added in the most practical and logical order, but boats would come after horses as a marker on that development situation.
43. Ultima Onlin was mentioned I think, concerning finding dungeons and know where they were, it will be designed to be a skill in PFO as such but is as previously in the Q/A being worked on after other things. Fishing you could do in Ultima. Stephen says certainly before that you will not so much fish as have a Fisheries for a resource for settlements . That makes sense to start gross and over time depending go more granular with all these systems... a common theme in the answers by the devs.
44. Speed of characters sorta taking a leaf out of Pathfinder: Heavy armour very slow, very high damage resistance for Material Damage, but not so much for eg Energy Damage convesely the Robed Wizards.
45. The idea atm is for Daily Deal Items from the KS to be more cosmetic permanently threaded than really uber functional items. [[ Q: To devs why not at some point make the skins of these usable for actually good items that can be destroyed but the skin can be kept by the player for like-for-like items?? ]]
46. Assassination of a player in a position of settlement prominence leads to a deduction on the DI of settlement and damage that knocks out the functioning of the said affected area.
47. Stealing is very difficult to implement: A general design question of: "I want A to do to others, but I don't want A done to me." Eg 60 goons walk into a settlement all select one player to pickpocket atst and that is a real problem on that scale.
48. NPC presence: Depends on art as a function of time. So conceivable at the beginning bare minimum and see how that works out and if adding them fleshes out the "life of a settlement".
49. Players can go about a settlement breaking laws. If they are not captured and can get away doing so they are also lowering the Lawfulness of the settlement.
50. Teleport is for dying only. It's essential players must traverse the land for the challenge and conflict vs skill and resources gameplay.
51. Stealth is a check on los at distance determined by the perception skills of the nearby players if seen or not. At a certain minimum distance however the perception tapers off so that a player is visible on screen - so long as the other players checking for stealth are themselves paying attention to what is on their computer screen. The higher the stealth skill the higher their ability to stay unseen is at distances. Dark ie night may increase the stealth ability if the devs can work with the engine.
52. A form of flat-footed seems to be in the combat design: If player is engaged in combat then another player attacks it seems there's buff perhaps if they turn their back.
53. Hence group tactics also help apply conditions on the target that knock on if done in the right combinations.
54. Unity Engine use Assets? No idea, if they need extra stuff instead of hiring more artists it could work.
55. Core vs Active alignment allows players role-play as well as influence on CE or N eg have direct consequences: There are things devs can track that lead to these states applied on players but there's things that cannot be tracked that may change the players alignment from what they want but the core alignment acts as the homing back if players don't act contrary to that for too long etc.
56. Aim is to have as many spells and utility spells as possible ie difference between Wizard and Sorcerer etc.
57. How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
**DISCLAIMER** Please not rough bullet points to draw an idea of the questions and topics covered: Could be full of errors and mistakes of hearing and interpretation.
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Goblin Squad Member
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46. Assassination of a player in a position of settlement prominence leads to a deduction on the DI of settlement and damage that knocks out the functioning of the said affected area.I like this, but it will lead to those characters being logged off unless needed.
The devs aim for at least achievements as incentive to be online. Additionally these management positions possibly need time active for bonuses to be applied and/or if low time online, for reductions in bonuses to kick in etc.
It's the paranoia as much as the actual succcessful hit that is the assassin's weapon.
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Goblin Squad Member
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46. Assassination of a player in a position of settlement prominence leads to a deduction on the DI of settlement and damage that knocks out the functioning of the said affected area.I like this, but it will lead to those characters being logged off unless needed.
There are ways around that like mentioned above. I'm more worried about the character logging off when in danger.
Implementation will be very tricky, but that's not a reason for shying away from it.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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23. KS backers get Destiny's Twin. Alts can be bought also. Might be a small discount for buying alts on x1 a/c to encourage to keep your characters in one account.WOOT! I've been pushing for this for a long time :)
Caveat from a more complete version of my ramble: that may be how we do it, but ultimately we'll go with whatever makes the most sense financially to Ryan. We would generally prefer that you keep all your characters on one account for our ease and yours, but I don't know if an economic incentive is the way we'll go about it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Caveat from a more complete version of my ramble: that may be how we do it, but ultimately we'll go with whatever makes the most sense financially to Ryan. We would generally prefer that you keep all your characters on one account for our ease and yours, but I don't know if an economic incentive is the way we'll go about it.23. KS backers get Destiny's Twin. Alts can be bought also. Might be a small discount for buying alts on x1 a/c to encourage to keep your characters in one account.WOOT! I've been pushing for this for a long time :)
That is a failing with most MMO's. Eve at least tried by offering a new account at a discount for the first 3 months.
It would be smart to have a monetary incentive to get people to spend more money. Maybe just after the first character, but something to make it worth while.
Honestly without some incentive, my first two characters will be enough.
Great Job AvenaOats, and very good ears too
Like the idea of Faction warfare, at a certain level, becoming consequence free. There really shouldn't be negative consequences for PvPing in a game that is "heavy on PvP content".
I'm not sure which consequences in particular you're referencing (as I'm just reading the comments now to know what to pay attention to when I watch it) but as a design principle there should be reasons not to constantly have all-out war, otherwise the fighting lacks meaning and complexity. I think having factions with and without self-restraint, some wanting trade and negotiation and some wanting backstabbing and all-out war, is good for the game. If all-out war is always the best strategy then it will be meaningless chaos. I prefer rich and meaningful chaos...
Although, consequences that exist solely to be annoying shouldn't exist. It should just be "if we do this, then they'll do this, and we can't gain this, but we have a chance at this" etc. Not "if you engage in this war productivity in your settlements automatically drops by 85%" or "if you engage in this war your alignment and reputation will suffer accordingly", or anything like that. All is fair in love and war.
Again, I could be talking about something completely different than what you were talking about.
@Stephen Cheney (or any other dev who knows the answer :) )
May I ask for clarification on venture companies and settlements
I know in Aeternum we have been making the assumption that the settlement is founded and then we can explicitly invite the chartered companies and individuals to become part of the settlement and those we didn't want we simply didn't invite.
The Q&A recording seemed to imply that you were planning a different system whereby the settlement managers set rules such as no Chaotic Evil people, No Elves , No people with reputation under 1000 and so on. Then any company that matches the criteria set can opt to join the settlement.
While I understand that things may not be fully developed in your thinking it would be helpful to know which of the two aforementioned methods is the closest approximation to what you have planned as they will have a large impact on how the initial communities get built
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Stephen Cheney (or any other dev who knows the answer :) )
May I ask for clarification on venture companies and settlements
I know in Aeternum we have been making the assumption that the settlement is founded and then we can explicitly invite the chartered companies and individuals to become part of the settlement and those we didn't want we simply didn't invite.
The Q&A recording seemed to imply that you were planning a different system whereby the settlement managers set rules such as no Chaotic Evil people, No Elves , No people with reputation under 1000 and so on. Then any company that matches the criteria set can opt to join the settlement.
While I understand that things may not be fully developed in your thinking it would be helpful to know which of the two aforementioned methods is the closest approximation to what you have planned as they will have a large impact on how the initial communities get built
Though more CC's mean more income and manpower for the settlement, I would hope the final call is in the settlement leadership's hands - they decide which CC's get to join. You could certainly open your doors to guests that fall under the umbrella of your settlement rules (specific alignments, races, etc.), but who joins your "family" should be up to you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...it would be helpful to know which of the two aforementioned methods...
I'll not be surprised if it's a hybrid: only those meeting criteria you can manage can apply for membership, and the yes/no's up to you. A slight variant would be you publishing your criteria, and anyone can apply, even those knowing they don't meet those criteria; that'd allow for one-off deals you can control.
...it would be helpful to know which of the two aforementioned methods...I'll not be surprised if it's a hybrid: only those meeting criteria you can manage can apply for membership, and the yes/no's up to you. A slight variant would be you publishing your criteria, and anyone can apply, even those knowing they don't meet those criteria; that'd allow for one-off deals you can control.
if the settlement can invite or not as it chooses there is no need for the extra convolutions you suggest which is why I asked for clarification
Thanks Stephen
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Goblin Squad Member
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47. Stealing is very difficult to implement: A general design question of: "I want A to do to others, but I don't want A done to me." Eg 60 goons walk into a settlement all select one player to pickpocket atst and that is a real problem on that scale.
I don't see this as difficult. If two or more thieves try to pickpocket the same target, both thieves will have such a reduced chance of success, and a higher chance of discovery, the act would be prohibitive.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm noting you're good at picking at systems Bludd. I would not have thought of that. The way I understand the problem is like a number I these mmorpg problems: When you scale it up it's runs riot.
This may be a completely hopeless direction to take, but I keep thinking of the rules and regulations imposed on members of guilds in Terry Pratchet's fantasy eg Guild of Thieves, Assassins. Not only that but limited recruitment and membership. Maybe that could be one way to put a check on these scale problems? Each Guild excommunicating/expelling members that break "the code"?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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...both thieves will have such a reduced chance of success, and a higher chance of discovery...
Now think of the victim. We've agreed that detection is an element of whatever system might be in place; if he detects only half the attempts, what does one player do with the information when he's notified that 30 people just tried to pickpocket him?
He has no hope of stopping *someone* from succeeding, the probabilities will be completely against him. Even if settlement managers have a "lockdown now!" mode--which I doubt they will--he can't mouse over each person near him fast enough to call out, on Teamspeak, all the names of nearby characters.
Result: pickpocket teams will improve the odds of group success, even if they reduce the odds of individual success. That's exactly like the real world, unfortunately, but without providing the victims all the advantages they'd have, due to the lack of, among other things, full sensory perception in the computer-world, and any sort of apprehension-risk for criminals.
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Goblin Squad Member
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47. Stealing is very difficult to implement: A general design question of: "I want A to do to others, but I don't want A done to me." Eg 60 goons walk into a settlement all select one player to pickpocket atst and that is a real problem on that scale.I don't see this as difficult. If two or more thieves try to pickpocket the same target, both thieves will have such a reduced chance of success, and a higher chance of discovery, the act would be prohibitive.
I don't think they were saying it was a technically challenging problem that they didn't know how to implement. I think they were saying it was a "wow, that's going to suck to be the victim" type of problem.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...both thieves will have such a reduced chance of success, and a higher chance of discovery...Now think of the victim. We've agreed that detection is an element of whatever system might be in place; if he detects only half the attempts, what does one player do with the information when he's notified that 30 people just tried to pickpocket him?
He has no hope of stopping *someone* from succeeding, the probabilities will be completely against him.
You have completely missed my point. If one or more thieves try to pick pocket the same victim, at the same time, the thieves' chances of success are dramatically reduced and the detection detection is dramatically increased. The more thieves you add to the attempt, the theft will become impossible, for all.
I have had a pick pocket attempt to steal from me. Fortunately the thief was maybe an 8 year old kid, and when I turned, his hand got caught in my pocket. The rest of the kids scattered off, but the nearby Police Officer "eye balled" me, probably to make sure I did not clock the kid. I gently removed the kids hand from my pocket and shooed him away. (Naples, Italy the city of street urchins and thieves).
My perception for pick pockets shot through the roof for the remainder of my stay.
GW could have a similar system for pick pocketing. One PP, has a better chance to steal than two. More than two, virtually no chance. Then once the victim has detected an attempt, his/her perception towards pick pockets is doubled or even tripled for a time period (maybe the same 20 minutes the SAD mechanic includes).
Pick Pocketing is stealth based theft, not a mugging, it is typically done solo. When it is done with a group, only one is the PP and the rest are distractors and look outs.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Wouldn't it be cool to be a pickpocket? (*)
Means:
1: You get within 10ft of me, I try to kill you or run away (our world becomes massively distorted due to this effect)
2: Nobody carries anything worth pickpocketing
3: Spending XP on pickpocketing skills is something only clueless newbies do
4: All the time and resources spent implementing this feature is wasted
(*) The rage of being a victim of theft in MMOs is vastly disproportionate to the real loss of value. For a very very large part of the community it crosses an invisible line into "being cheated"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Wouldn't it be cool to be a pickpocket? (*)
Means:
1: You get within 10ft of me, I try to kill you or run away (our world becomes massively distorted due to this effect)
2: Nobody carries anything worth pickpocketing
3: Spending XP on pickpocketing skills is something only clueless newbies do
4: All the time and resources spent implementing this feature is wasted
(*) The rage of being a victim of theft in MMOs is vastly disproportionate to the real loss of value. For a very very large part of the community it crosses an invisible line into "being cheated"
What are your plans for Rogues to steal?
Sure, there will be robbery, but in the settlements with the criminal flag and all of those Pcs spotting the "free kill".... It would not even produce the suicide gank needed to pull it off.
Burglary, and you will have the same tears of the victims crying they had no active defense.
But, back to pick pocketing for a moment...
Yes, it is a skill that new thieves use. That is typically the first rung in the ladder, for most fictional, PnP, and PC game thieves. That is the usual "test" given by NPC Thieves' Guilds.
Won't there be role playing elements of the core classes?
(*) The rage of being a victim of theft in MMOs is vastly disproportionate to the real loss of value. For a very very large part of the community it crosses an invisible line into "being cheated"
Some player's are going to whine about any loss, no matter what the source of it is. That is why there is My Little Pony Online for them.
PnP AD&D is / was more hardcore than most MMOs on the market, especially if you had a GM that was stingy with access to Resurrection. I'm sure Pathfinder RPG is not that much different.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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I think rogue skills will be great for adventuring - picking locks, finding and disabling traps, sneaking past enemies, and dealing sneak attack damage.
Maybe after a long period of Crowdforging we'll have some kind of player interaction with those skills, but they frighten me, so we have to be ultra-careful. The pitfalls are many, obvious, and very dangerous.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding pickpocketing, some games have implemented a "no fault" pickpocket mechanic. The thief gets to pick the pocket of a player, and may get some loot. But it doesn't come from the player's inventory. The thief gets a reward and the player loses nothing. But there's not much to be gained in terms of player conflict. Perhaps the thief is discovered and flags, the player could attack, or guards could attack, or passers by could attack under some circumstances. But the thief may only get garbage loot, as the loot would have to come from a loot table of some sort.
Not sure how much time developers would be able to spend on a feature that might not yield much fun for the thief, or the layer.
The other rogue skills like detect trap, set trap, pick lock, sneak, stealth, climb walls, those are cool and I can easily a rogue (even a "good" aligned rogue) being am important part of a party for dungeons or caravan escorts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think rogue skills will be great for adventuring - picking locks, finding and disabling traps, sneaking past enemies, and dealing sneak attack damage.
Maybe after a long period of Crowdforging we'll have some kind of player interaction with those skills, but they frighten me, so we have to be ultra-careful. The pitfalls are many, obvious, and very dangerous.
Perhaps I'm just being nostalgic for when there was a Thief class. The 'Adventurer" role is very useful in a PVE dungeon crawler like DDO. But in PFO, dungeons will not be the mainstay of our activities.
As I said earlier, but I will rephrase it here, no matter what the cause of someone's loss they will complain.
Why is theft more feared then death?
I know my answer to that question. That fear is understood. But, that mentality should be pointed out, as being outside of the intended reality of an Open World PVP MMO RPG.
All I can say is, "Don't feed the Loot Monkeys." The fact that PFO is heavily leaning towards the best gear being player crafted is a major step towards not feeding them. The next step is for the Loot Monkeys to fear death more than the loss of a few pocket items, where their only defense is a high Perception.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bludd: Thief as a career choice would be interesting addition, if it's at all possible. Could be part and parcel of Chaotic settlements?
Maybe pickpocketing frequency can increase in lower lawful/lower security rating settlements? Maybe there could be a limited number of pickpocket attempts per day related to the above measurement? And the value of pickpocket items be reduced significantly ie tagged? Hmm it gets tricky with where the items are going... Maybe low value items only?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Regarding pickpocketing, some games have implemented a "no fault" pickpocket mechanic. The thief gets to pick the pocket of a player, and may get some loot. But it doesn't come from the player's inventory. The thief gets a reward and the player loses nothing. But there's not much to be gained in terms of player conflict. Perhaps the thief is discovered and flags, the player could attack, or guards could attack, or passers by could attack under some circumstances. But the thief may only get garbage loot, as the loot would have to come from a loot table of some sort.
Not sure how much time developers would be able to spend on a feature that might not yield much fun for the thief, or the layer.
The other rogue skills like detect trap, set trap, pick lock, sneak, stealth, climb walls, those are cool and I can easily a rogue (even a "good" aligned rogue) being am important part of a party for dungeons or caravan escorts.
Hardin,
You idea for the "No Fault" would work, but when you include the "Bold" sentence you encourage the Devs not to do it. Here is the layers:
* The devs have said that there will be early PVE content, and I'm assuming for the four core classes (and later more).
* The devs are talking about having NPC factions, that we can build up reputation with.
* This is a sandbox MMO RPG, and some players may choose to be career pickpockets. Yes it is a moderate risk for potentially small reward, but that is their choice.
* There could be Merit Badges ("Goblin Balls") attached to successful pick pocketing, that also increasing NPC Faction standing.
@ Ryan,
Never underestimate the willingness of players to subscribe to a MMO for years, and only do an activity that most feel is fluff.
There were players in SWG that did nothing but entertain, in the same bar, everyday.
There are musicians in LotRO that do nothing but do a weekly battle of the bands. This was also during the paid subscription time.
In EVE there are players who do nothing but mining in high sec.
In Darkfall, there are players who will do nothing but, gathering or crafting in the safe zone.
Pickpocketing, if done the way Hardin suggests, and with the added layers that I suggest, could be a useful and viable layer in the game.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If you engage me in combat, I can try to run, fight, negotiate, call for help, etc. I feel like I have choices and can affect the outcome.
If you successfully pick my pocket, by definition, I had no meaningful choices or interaction with you - I just got screwed. This elicits as I said a response of anger and sense of loss disproportionate to the likely value. It rapidly degenerates into paranoia and breaks socialization in a game designed to be driven by socialization.
This effect is related to why people have such a strong negative reaction to being ganked.